Spoiler Solarian idiots Spoiler

crewdude48 wrote:

TheMonster wrote:It may not be a matter of an "invitation". To the best of my knowledge, no human-inhabited star system has ever been "invited" to join the Star Kingdom/Empire.

Silesia was "invited" to join the Empire in the "you have no choice" sense.

Yes, although more as a protectorate than a full member -- at least for now.

I suppose that could be a model to use for other verge systems that get liberated from OFS/FF, but it doesn't seem like a good one.

If Honors master plan is still controlling, they will want to gets successor states organized as they break up the League.

Jonathan_S wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:
Silesia was "invited" to join the Empire in the "you have no choice" sense.

Yes, although more as a protectorate than a full member -- at least for now.

I suppose that could be a model to use for other verge systems that get liberated from OFS/FF, but it doesn't seem like a good one.

Okay, then maybe an invitation like that of Masada?

kenl511 wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:[crewdude48 on Silesia's "invitation to join Manticore, snipped for quote reasons - when is that getting fixed?]Yes, although more as a protectorate than a full member -- at least for now.

I suppose that could be a model to use for other verge systems that get liberated from OFS/FF, but it doesn't seem like a good one.

Okay, then maybe an invitation like that of Masada?

Masada was never invited to join Manticore - it was conquered as a serious threat to a Manticoran ally (what with saying they were going to nuke planetary targets rather than let Grayson stay independent and all). At some point in the future, Masada will have a functioning, non-fanatical government, at which point the Manticoran Army will say "Finally! Good bye."

akira.taylor wrote:Masada was never invited to join Manticore - it was conquered as a serious threat to a Manticoran ally (what with saying they were going to nuke planetary targets rather than let Grayson stay independent and all). At some point in the future, Masada will have a functioning, non-fanatical government, at which point the Manticoran Army will say "Finally! Good bye."

Just like Iraq and Afghanistan, you mean?

clancy688 wrote:

akira.taylor wrote:Masada was never invited to join Manticore - it was conquered as a serious threat to a Manticoran ally (what with saying they were going to nuke planetary targets rather than let Grayson stay independent and all). At some point in the future, Masada will have a functioning, non-fanatical government, at which point the Manticoran Army will say "Finally! Good bye."

Just like Iraq and Afghanistan, you mean?

Well, that's the plan. I suspect it would be more like Japan or Germany (or Italy). We still have troops there, but that is partly inertia after the Cold War.

Sorry, my bad. There was irony in my post.

While the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan may truly be non-fanatical, exactly where do you get the impression that those governments are "functional"?

Especially Afghanistan would be a perfect example for Masada. In my opinion, nearly 12 years after the invasion, Afghanistan is still as close to a failed state as before.

As the ongoing war proves, it will take a LONG time until any country dominated by religious fanatics will transform into something stable.

And Masada was even worse than Afghanistan. It's like North Korea with die-hard, violent islamism instead of fuhrer-cult.

clancy688 wrote:Sorry, my bad. There was irony in my post.

While the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan may truly be non-fanatical, exactly where do you get the impression that those governments are "functional"?

Especially Afghanistan would be a perfect example for Masada. In my opinion, nearly 12 years after the invasion, Afghanistan is still as close to a failed state as before.

As the ongoing war proves, it will take a LONG time until any country dominated by religious fanatics will transform into something stable.

And Masada was even worse than Afghanistan. It's like North Korea with die-hard, violent islamism instead of fuhrer-cult.

You will note that at no time did I mention a time frame? I was pointing out that the plan (which hasn't changed, as far as I know) was to let Masada go its own way once it was a stable system (and not an immediate existential threat to anyone - though that was solved by giving Grayson SD(P)s and such).

I merely tried to say that this plan, as formulated by you, will probably work out just as well as in Iraq and Afghanistan (maybe even worse).

You made it sound easy, as if it's only a matter of time. That's what I objected to.

Of course there's no alternative. But still, there's lot more work (and blood, sweat and tears) involved in transforming such a nation into something even remotely resembling a modern, working civilization.

Simply waiting until it happens doesn't do it.

Personally I'd like to see some short stories depicting life on Masada years after the conquest.
The subject is hardly ever mentioned in the books. I just can't believe that Masada's fanatics would simply roll over.

In my eyes, it would take some very creative story telling to logically explain, why Masada wouldn't melt down into a bloody, Afghan-styled unrest involving the Manticoran Army and insurgents.
And if there IS such a conflict, I'm wondering why we never heard about it.

I could never figure why they put troops on the ground in the first place. Interdict the planet and let them knock each other off.

clancy688 wrote:I merely tried to say that this plan, as formulated by you, will probably work out just as well as in Iraq and Afghanistan (maybe even worse).

You made it sound easy, as if it's only a matter of time. That's what I objected to.

Of course there's no alternative. But still, there's lot more work (and blood, sweat and tears) involved in transforming such a nation into something even remotely resembling a modern, working civilization.

Simply waiting until it happens doesn't do it.

Personally I'd like to see some short stories depicting life on Masada years after the conquest.
The subject is hardly ever mentioned in the books. I just can't believe that Masada's fanatics would simply roll over.

In my eyes, it would take some very creative story telling to logically explain, why Masada wouldn't melt down into a bloody, Afghan-styled unrest involving the Manticoran Army and insurgents.
And if there IS such a conflict, I'm wondering why we never heard about it.