Will the Star Empire of Manticore eventually annex Mesa?"

waddles for desert wrote:It is hard to imagine that a future former slave and seccie dominated Mesa would surrender its sovereignty even pro forma by offically subjugating itself to an empire.

The Ballroom and Torch may have a few words to say in the discussion.

SYED wrote:ALot will depend on the terminous systems.

Mesa likly arranged for the local systems to be unable to act as threat to them. How ever, the systems that mesa has influence on may be a long term issue, they may enjoy the status quo, so act to preserve it.


Visgoth is an independant system, with a long time history with mesa. it id in the league core, so possibly alot of pull. Also, there is likly to be alto of near by systems with some kind of military force.

Depending on the other terminouses, it will termine if it is valued enough/

Visigoth is also a member of the Mesan Alignment and the Renaissance Factor. See p.536 MoH.

I can very easily see Manticore taking control of the entire nexus.

richardinor wrote:SPOILER

At the book signing I attended last year, Mr. Weber stated that Manticore will occupy Mesa. He also described some of the interrogations of Mesans during the occupation. The occupation will not happen until at least 2 more books.

I'd also heard that the original plan was for the series to end with one of Honor's kids in Detweiller's office, looking out of the window at those perfect white sands. This was before the timeline got compressed, of course.

JohnRoth wrote:

waddles for desert wrote:It is hard to imagine that a future former slave and seccie dominated Mesa would surrender its sovereignty even pro forma by offically subjugating itself to an empire.

The Ballroom and Torch may have a few words to say in the discussion.

I think Ballroom and Torch are going to sit down, shut up and get out of the way when Manticore goes on the warpath.

If the people with FTL controlled missiles and a LOT of SD(P) warships who just lost several million people in a Pearl harbor style attack have decided to smash Mesa...you just say "OK" and figure it all out later.

Besides, it's not like Manticore hasn't been Anti-Slavery for a long time, so while you may not know what they are going to do, it's more probable than not the outcome will be including 2 things:

1) BAD STUFF for Mesa. Duno what exactly that is...but...bad.

2) Freedom for Mesan Slaves. Maybe not political independance immediately, but even as newly minted Manticorians, it's freedom.

When you Mesan masters have all been killed off, and someone says "We're going to be protecting the planet for a while. We'd like you to read our laws and political structure so you are familiar with how things work now, and if you'd like to join the Royal Marines and kill more slavers, we'd love to have you. Otherwise, build yourself a world and an economy, and send some reps to Torch for a look-see. I'll be on the Superdreadnought that just smashed your enslavers having High Tea. Call me if you want to talk or something..."

Being part of the Manticorian Empire isn't going to look terrible.

Maybe it's not what you want...but it's a step up in the world.

Mitchell. Esq.

Quite a logical approach which would work if logical creatures were involved.

The liberation of Torch is a good indication of how humans in DW's universe will respond. The French Revolution has many historical examples to draw upon. His insights may be somewhat further informed by the Civil Rights Movement and the events of the Arab Spring, but they probably will not be radically different.

Prior to the arrival of an alliance force, the message should be passed to Ball Room associates to organize riot prevention squads to limit slave and seccie casualties in the event of a "Mesan provocation" or "other extraordinary event" such as another bombing. The precedent would be the squads of marchers in the Civil Rights Movement who were appointed to see that marchers did not respond to violence with violence, and their antecedants among Gandhi's supporters. The security force in the Mesa will get wind of this, so the instructions need to be oblique.

A stealthy probe should place a Hermes buoy or its stealthy equivalent within two or three light seconds of Mesa just before the arrival of the alliance fleet to provide FTL communication wih the Mesa government.

Coinicident with the arrival of an overwhelming alliance force in the Mesa system, a secure message should be sent to put the riot restraint units on alert.

At the same time, a secure message should be sent from Queen Berry to the government of Mesa. The MAlign will immediately receive the message. A brief introduction should include the most graphic footage from the Congo revolution as well as the efforts of the the SKM, FF, the Ball Room and Queen Berry to quell the violence including the extent and limits of their success. It should continue with Berry saying, "We must do better this time!"

The message should include the following points:

.....Ships which attempt to flee will be destroyed.

.....Ships and and space installations which do not surrender will be destroyed from ranges greater the fifty million kilometers. The first launches should be coincident with her words.

.....The populace should not immediately be made aware of events in space.

.....A planet wide "emergency preparedness drill" should be conducted, and all citizens should be moved to shelters. All militia units, police and security forces should be deployed to protect the shelters.

.....As MAlign intelligence and maybe Mesa government intelligence will already have some awareness of the riot prevention squads, the message should note that the squads have been put on alert.

.....The government should be informed that in twelve hours, Queen Berry will make a planet wide announcement something like this:.

People of Mesa, I am Queen Berry of Torch. I bring you great tidings! Mesa's fleet has been defeated, and you are free!

Sadly, on Torch, too many died with the great news of their freedom fresh in their hearts. They went out with hate and vengeance in their hearts, and they were destroyed. In the retalliations which followed, many innocents were killed. I implore you: Do not let this happen to Mesa! Help me! Help me to stop the slaughter before it starts!

The Ball Room and many other partiotic groups have organized to secure order. Cooperate with them, please!

Most of the ruling class are now in shelters defended by their militia. If you attack them, you will be slaughtered. If you overwhelm them, it will be to murder the innocent along with the guilty. They still have weapons which can destroy neighborhoods and cities, and they will retaliate if there is a bloodbath. Do not provoke the destruction of your friends and neighbors!

Their will be justice! The truth will be told! Those guilty of atrocities will be punished! But, you must wait. You must wait a just little while longer.

Did you think yesterday that today would bring your freedom? It has! You have waited for centuries for your deliverance, and your deliverance is as hand!

Wait a little longer for justice, I implore you! It will come!

We have brought peace and prosperity and justice to Torch. You can do it here on Mesa. Help me! Please, join with me, not to destroy, but to start building your new free nation!

Your new nation will need its institutions. It will need its wealth. Everything destroyed today, your nation will have to rebuild tomorrow. Everything stolen today, your nation will be lacking tomorrow.

Volunteer! Help us!

Go to the leaders in your building.

Go to the leaders in your block.

Go the the leaders in your neighborhood, your farm, your factory, your store, your business.

You have a nation, and your nation needs you today!

Power, water, food, jobs - its yours now, and you have to make it work. There are millions who will help you, but you are billions. It is your nation, and you must start running it today!

Go now to your leaders! Listen to them!

Go to your leaders! Help them! Protect what is now yours from wanton destruction!

In time, you will need the government offices and police stations. Stay away from those now! Taking them now will cause too much chaos and bring on a needless bloodbath. When the rest is secured, those will be handed over without a fight. Don't get people killed when they have a new life of freedom to live!

You will need the schools. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the farms. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the factories. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the stores. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the businesses. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the hospitals and the clinics. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

Freedom! Your freedom and your nation are yours by right now and forever! Go to your leaders and secure what is yours by right!

Will there still be a blood bath. Of course, but it may be smaller.

Some people will be confused and stay home.

Some people will think it sounds like work and stay home.

Some people will try to organize and do some good.

Some (most) will get stoned ass drunk!

And some will still go looking for something to trash, something to steal and someone to kill.

Gotta love the eggshells in the omelette!

Hi Waddles For Desert,

"Occupy Mesa" huh?

While I'm sympathetic, I doubt its going to happen.

Even if we put your suggestion to a vote, I doubt we'd affect RFC in any way, and I suspect he's already written what happens to Mesa, which probably isn't in ART, unfortunately.

What alternatives do you have?

L


[quote="waddles for desert"]Mitchell. Esq.

Quite a logical approach which would work if logical creatures were involved.

The liberation of Torch is a good indication of how humans in DW's universe will respond. The French Revolution has many historical examples to draw upon. His insights may be somewhat further informed by the Civil Rights Movement and the events of the Arab Spring, but they probably will not be radically different.

Prior to the arrival of an alliance force, the message should be passed to Ball Room associates to organize riot prevention squads to limit slave and seccie casualties in the event of a "Mesan provocation" or "other extraordinary event" such as another bombing. The precedent would be the squads of marchers in the Civil Rights Movement who were appointed to see that marchers did not respond to violence with violence, and their antecedants among Gandhi's supporters. The security force in the Mesa will get wind of this, so the instructions need to be oblique.

A stealthy probe should place a Hermes buoy or its stealthy equivalent within two or three light seconds of Mesa just before the arrival of the alliance fleet to provide FTL communication wih the Mesa government.

Coinicident with the arrival of an overwhelming alliance force in the Mesa system, a secure message should be sent to put the riot restraint units on alert.

At the same time, a secure message should be sent from Queen Berry to the government of Mesa. The MAlign will immediately receive the message. A brief introduction should include the most graphic footage from the Congo revolution as well as the efforts of the the SKM, FF, the Ball Room and Queen Berry to quell the violence including the extent and limits of their success. It should continue with Berry saying, "We must do better this time!"

The message should include the following points:

.....Ships which attempt to flee will be destroyed.

.....Ships and and space installations which do not surrender will be destroyed from ranges greater the fifty million kilometers. The first launches should be coincident with her words.

.....The populace should not immediately be made aware of events in space.

.....A planet wide "emergency preparedness drill" should be conducted, and all citizens should be moved to shelters. All militia units, police and security forces should be deployed to protect the shelters.

.....As MAlign intelligence and maybe Mesa government intelligence will already have some awareness of the riot prevention squads, the message should note that the squads have been put on alert.

.....The government should be informed that in twelve hours, Queen Berry will make a planet wide announcement something like this:.

[i]People of Mesa, I am Queen Berry of Torch. I bring you great tidings! Mesa's fleet has been defeated, and you are free!

Sadly, on Torch, too many died with the great news of their freedom fresh in their hearts. They went out with hate and vengeance in their hearts, and they were destroyed. In the retalliations which followed, many innocents were killed. I implore you: Do not let this happen to Mesa! Help me! Help me to stop the slaughter before it starts!

The Ball Room and many other partiotic groups have organized to secure order. Cooperate with them, please!

Most of the ruling class are now in shelters defended by their militia. If you attack them, you will be slaughtered. If you overwhelm them, it will be to murder the innocent along with the guilty. They still have weapons which can destroy neighborhoods and cities, and they will retaliate if there is a bloodbath. Do not provoke the destruction of your friends and neighbors!

Their will be justice! The truth will be told! Those guilty of atrocities will be punished! But, you must wait. You must wait a just little while longer.

Did you think yesterday that today would bring your freedom? It has! You have waited for centuries for your deliverance, and your deliverance is as hand!

Wait a little longer for justice, I implore you! It will come!

We have brought peace and prosperity and justice to Torch. You can do it here on Mesa. Help me! Please, join with me, not to destroy, but to start building your new free nation!

Your new nation will need its institutions. It will need its wealth. Everything destroyed today, your nation will have to rebuild tomorrow. Everything stolen today, your nation will be lacking tomorrow.

Volunteer! Help us!

Go to the leaders in your building.

Go to the leaders in your block.

Go the the leaders in your neighborhood, your farm, your factory, your store, your business.

You have a nation, and your nation needs you today!

Power, water, food, jobs - its yours now, and you have to make it work. There are millions who will help you, but you are billions. It is your nation, and you must start running it today!

Go now to your leaders! Listen to them!

Go to your leaders! Help them! Protect what is now yours from wanton destruction!

In time, you will need the government offices and police stations. Stay away from those now! Taking them now will cause too much chaos and bring on a needless bloodbath. When the rest is secured, those will be handed over without a fight. Don't get people killed when they have a new life of freedom to live!

You will need the schools. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the farms. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the factories. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the stores. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the businesses. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the hospitals and the clinics. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

Freedom! Your freedom and your nation are yours by right now and forever! Go to your leaders and secure what is yours by right![/i]

Will there still be a blood bath. Of course, but it may be smaller.

Some people will be confused and stay home.

Some people will think it sounds like work and stay home.

Some people will try to organize and do some good.

Some (most) will get stoned ass drunk!

And some will still go looking for something to trash, something to steal and someone to kill.

Gotta love the eggshells in the omelette![/quote]

lyonheart - This is from page two of this topic. It is my only reference for what may happen other than my own speculation.

richardinor wrote:SPOILER

At the book signing I attended last year, Mr. Weber stated that Manticore will occupy Mesa. He also described some of the interrogations of Mesans during the occupation. The occupation will not happen until at least 2 more books.

I really do not know which way DW's wind will blow. Something must be done with Mesa at some point. With probably billions of slaves, billions of seccies and billions of "citizens", the possibilites range from genocide to mass emiigration to eventual coexistence of some sort. It suspect that it would take a long time to selectively kill billions, and mass emigration for billions might take longer, so eventual coexistence seems most practical and certainly most ethical. Some sort of truth and reconcilliation process would be required. Some parts might be like the Nuremberg Trials, some parts might be like post genocide Rwanda and some parts might be like post apartheid South Africa. The DW is in the details.

My abiding thought on the matter has been:

SMASH MESA!

I agree with Waddles-for-desert that Mesa needs smashing. Rat Poison, the attack on Manticore and Grayson, and Manpower and its genetic slave traffic. In 1964 Saudi Arabia became the last nation on earth to outlaw slavery. The enlightenment spawned not only the United-States but the first anti-slavery societies around the world in the late 1600s and early 1700s. I don't know if three hundred years to destroy a three thousand year old institution is good or bad, but man finally outlawed the evil. Unfortunately Slavery still exists illegally around the world, some people are despicable, and some will do anything for money.

Having said that my grandfather owned a slave as a four-year-old orphan, the slave was soon sold the money used for his upkeep, but imagine a four-year-old owning a grown man, nor was this the weirdest thing in Slavery. For those interested in slavery in America I suggest Kenneth M. Stamp's [u]The Peculiar Institution.[u] The topic fascinated me as a child as my grandfather owned a slave making me a rarity in my age grade.

For the love of humanity Mesa must be controlled, and Manpower destroyed. Humanity I think will have allies in the struggle, the <People> AKA Treecats. We'll know at worst in five and a half months, and it looks like the ARC in January. CPO Poker Mind

PS Lasalle Pocatello the great grandson of the chief Pocatello Idaho is named for once said in a discussion of my white guilt on our treatment of the Indians, "The evil done by your ancestors is their evil. The only evil you are responsible for is that that you do." He went on to mention that the Indians had not always treated the Whites with kindness. He was a wise old Shoshoni Chief long gone now.

waddles for desert wrote:Mitchell. Esq.

Quite a logical approach which would work if logical creatures were involved.

The liberation of Torch is a good indication of how humans in DW's universe will respond. The French Revolution has many historical examples to draw upon. His insights may be somewhat further informed by the Civil Rights Movement and the events of the Arab Spring, but they probably will not be radically different.

Prior to the arrival of an alliance force, the message should be passed to Ball Room associates to organize riot prevention squads to limit slave and seccie casualties in the event of a "Mesan provocation" or "other extraordinary event" such as another bombing. The precedent would be the squads of marchers in the Civil Rights Movement who were appointed to see that marchers did not respond to violence with violence, and their antecedants among Gandhi's supporters. The security force in the Mesa will get wind of this, so the instructions need to be oblique.

A stealthy probe should place a Hermes buoy or its stealthy equivalent within two or three light seconds of Mesa just before the arrival of the alliance fleet to provide FTL communication wih the Mesa government.

Coinicident with the arrival of an overwhelming alliance force in the Mesa system, a secure message should be sent to put the riot restraint units on alert.

At the same time, a secure message should be sent from Queen Berry to the government of Mesa. The MAlign will immediately receive the message. A brief introduction should include the most graphic footage from the Congo revolution as well as the efforts of the the SKM, FF, the Ball Room and Queen Berry to quell the violence including the extent and limits of their success. It should continue with Berry saying, "We must do better this time!"

The message should include the following points:

.....Ships which attempt to flee will be destroyed.

.....Ships and and space installations which do not surrender will be destroyed from ranges greater the fifty million kilometers. The first launches should be coincident with her words.

.....The populace should not immediately be made aware of events in space.

.....A planet wide "emergency preparedness drill" should be conducted, and all citizens should be moved to shelters. All militia units, police and security forces should be deployed to protect the shelters.

.....As MAlign intelligence and maybe Mesa government intelligence will already have some awareness of the riot prevention squads, the message should note that the squads have been put on alert.

.....The government should be informed that in twelve hours, Queen Berry will make a planet wide announcement something like this:.

People of Mesa, I am Queen Berry of Torch. I bring you great tidings! Mesa's fleet has been defeated, and you are free!

Sadly, on Torch, too many died with the great news of their freedom fresh in their hearts. They went out with hate and vengeance in their hearts, and they were destroyed. In the retalliations which followed, many innocents were killed. I implore you: Do not let this happen to Mesa! Help me! Help me to stop the slaughter before it starts!

The Ball Room and many other partiotic groups have organized to secure order. Cooperate with them, please!

Most of the ruling class are now in shelters defended by their militia. If you attack them, you will be slaughtered. If you overwhelm them, it will be to murder the innocent along with the guilty. They still have weapons which can destroy neighborhoods and cities, and they will retaliate if there is a bloodbath. Do not provoke the destruction of your friends and neighbors!

Their will be justice! The truth will be told! Those guilty of atrocities will be punished! But, you must wait. You must wait a just little while longer.

Did you think yesterday that today would bring your freedom? It has! You have waited for centuries for your deliverance, and your deliverance is as hand!

Wait a little longer for justice, I implore you! It will come!

We have brought peace and prosperity and justice to Torch. You can do it here on Mesa. Help me! Please, join with me, not to destroy, but to start building your new free nation!

Your new nation will need its institutions. It will need its wealth. Everything destroyed today, your nation will have to rebuild tomorrow. Everything stolen today, your nation will be lacking tomorrow.

Volunteer! Help us!

Go to the leaders in your building.

Go to the leaders in your block.

Go the the leaders in your neighborhood, your farm, your factory, your store, your business.

You have a nation, and your nation needs you today!

Power, water, food, jobs - its yours now, and you have to make it work. There are millions who will help you, but you are billions. It is your nation, and you must start running it today!

Go now to your leaders! Listen to them!

Go to your leaders! Help them! Protect what is now yours from wanton destruction!

In time, you will need the government offices and police stations. Stay away from those now! Taking them now will cause too much chaos and bring on a needless bloodbath. When the rest is secured, those will be handed over without a fight. Don't get people killed when they have a new life of freedom to live!

You will need the schools. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the farms. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the factories. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the stores. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the businesses. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

You will need the hospitals and the clinics. Occupy them now and protect them for your nation!

Freedom! Your freedom and your nation are yours by right now and forever! Go to your leaders and secure what is yours by right!

Will there still be a blood bath. Of course, but it may be smaller.

Some people will be confused and stay home.

Some people will think it sounds like work and stay home.

Some people will try to organize and do some good.

Some (most) will get stoned ass drunk!

And some will still go looking for something to trash, something to steal and someone to kill.

Gotta love the eggshells in the omelette!

I think it's going to go something like this...

Mesa System Defense Command:

"Status Change! OH SHIT!!" tech #1

"What is it?" Officer of the watch

"I make 4 groups translating from hyper, each of 100 ships, least time course of Mesa, all ships have a velocity 6.8KPS^2...and I'm picking up gravitic transmission from each of the groups." Sayeth Tech #1

"Sir, one of the ships in orbit just blew away 2 of our cutters and has taken out our ground control sats in sector 34 and has launched on SPACE-COMMMAND station #4! It has raised it's wedge and sidewalls, it's velocity is 350 Gravities out-system and it's deployed one F-ton of ECM, I can barely get a look at it...F-ME! 8 more ships doing the same! We have com blackouts all over the planet...Receiving a transmission broadband in the clear. On your screen!" Cryeth Communication rating #56

"My name is Jeremy-X. I am aboard the Royal Manticorian Navy Superdreadnought Dominion, accompanying the united fleets of the Star Empire of Manticore, The Republic of Haven and the Republic of Erewhon.

The blight of genetic slavery has ended.

At this time, Ballroom officers and agents on Mesa will take command of your system defense networks, power grids, military communications and arsenals.

All Manpower, Inc. personal are to be rounded up and secured, and will face trial for slaver and other crimes against humanity.

All Mesan military and security forces are to stand down and surrender.

All ships in orbit are to strike their wedge immediately. No ships may leave orbit, and all air-traffic on Mesa will land immediately.

Any retribution against the slave population of Mesa for our presence will result in retribution from ballroom which will beggar your imagination in the ferocity of our response.

Hint: Torch was a warmup.

You have 5 minutes to surrender. After that, none will be accepted."

Everyone looks at each other.

"Dam" Sayeth Tech #3

"Yeah" Sayeth the officer of the watch.

People remember ballroom is in dissolution and queen berry and jeremy x are not part of it they are the Queen of Torch and the minister of war of Torch respectively, so effectivelly all the people of ballroom still on mesa who decide to join torch service and still be an operative on mesa has become officially a Torch spy not ballroom, so i think the comunications will be more of the point of The Kingdom of Torch against slavery, not ballroom.