Spoiler for "What Price Victory"

cthia wrote:Doh! Another brain fart; must've been something I ate.

Yes, I meant if the wedding had been on Sphinx, Allison's mother had a right to be upset. The wedding is usually held in the bride's hometown and the father gives her away.

So, who gave her away? Jacques? Or did her father attend, THEN broke off communication?

No details on the wedding itself. Except small, on Beowulf and no Benton-Ramierez-y-Chen Momma (who was invited).

tlb wrote:

Fox2! wrote:First Victory definitely takes place after Beauty and the Beast. The question is, whose first victory is it? There is a hint in To End in Fire

Theemile wrote:It was Honor's first victory - overcoming the anger between her Mother and Grandmother and healing the family. Her father calls it so in response to Honor's worry that she might not be up to command a starship.

If so, that seems disappointing and I fail to see the connection between solving a family crisis and commanding a starship. Yes, command does involve handling relationships (but that is more the province of the XO), however the most important part is a mastery of ship handling, tactics and strategy.

I do not think Alfred was trying to imply that there was any connection between the two. He was simply commenting on Honor's ability to conquer her demons; even if those demons are huge. IOW, Alfred was soothing Honor's doubts with his own pride and confidence in her.

Theemile, am I correct that Allison's mother's plans for her was to remain on Beowulf and dive into the family practice?

And, of course, Honor's first victory was easy. She only had to be born. What grandmother wanted to miss out on her grandchild.

cthia wrote:He was simply commenting on Honor's ability to conquer her demons; even if those demons are huge. IOW, Alfred was soothing Honor's doubts with his own pride and confidence in her.

-- snip --

And, of course, Honor's first victory was easy. She only had to be born. What grandmother wanted to miss out on her grandchild.

This so-called "First Victory" has nothing to do with conquering anything, if all it is about is her birth healing a family rift.

If he wants to soothe her doubts, that fine, but the act of being born does nothing to inspire "pride and confidence".

There has to be more than this, to require a novella form.

cthia wrote:I do not think Alfred was trying to imply that there was any connection between the two. He was simply commenting on Honor's ability to conquer her demons; even if those demons are huge. IOW, Alfred was soothing Honor's doubts with his own pride and confidence in her.

Theemile, am I correct that Allison's mother's plans for her was to remain on Beowulf and dive into the family practice?

And, of course, Honor's first victory was easy. She only had to be born. What grandmother wanted to miss out on her grandchild.

Essentially, but there was no family "practice" - more Family Legacy - It was already identified that Allison was a prodigy in Genetics (even for that family) and had the potential to lead the Beowulf establishment in new directions for centuries to come in the most prestigious institutions in the universe, another outstanding member of that outstanding family.

Her leaving was seen as the equivalent of a 19 century Imperial Crown Prince renouncing his crown and leaving to be a Marshall or Mayor in the American wild west. That they would be so successful that their city would turn into San Francisco, and they or their children would be Governors or Presidents, is immaterial - the optics at time were that the individual was throwing their potential, priviledge, and historical legacy out the window, in order to live a much smaller, though deliberate, life, far from civilized life.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:I do not think Alfred was trying to imply that there was any connection between the two. He was simply commenting on Honor's ability to conquer her demons; even if those demons are huge. IOW, Alfred was soothing Honor's doubts with his own pride and confidence in her.

Theemile, am I correct that Allison's mother's plans for her was to remain on Beowulf and dive into the family practice?

And, of course, Honor's first victory was easy. She only had to be born. What grandmother wanted to miss out on her grandchild.

Essentially, but there was no family "practice" - more Family Legacy - It was already identified that Allison was a prodigy in Genetics (even for that family) and had the potential to lead the Beowulf establishment in new directions for centuries to come in the most prestigious institutions in the universe, another outstanding member of that outstanding family.

Her leaving was seen as the equivalent of a 19 century Imperial Crown Prince renouncing his crown and leaving to be a Marshall or Mayor in the American wild west. That they would be so successful that their city would turn into San Francisco, and they or their children would be Governors or Presidents, is immaterial - the optics at time were that the individual was throwing their potential, priviledge, and historical legacy out the window, in order to live a much smaller, though deliberate, life, far from civilized life.

Well now I can understand her mother's frustration. She might have viewed Allison's move as selfish and self centered. Allison's responsibility was bigger than she.

As a matter of fact, how much more rewarding and successful would her career have been if she had remained on Beowulf. I would be surprised if anyone here would think that Allison did not do well for herself. But on Beowulf she would have had access to much better infrastructure, support and technology. Leaving Beowulf would have been like leaving the gene lab at NASA for one at a local police department.

The family probably invested a lot in Allison. Not that her own happiness did not matter.

cthia wrote:Well now I can understand her mother's frustration. She might have viewed Allison's move as selfish and self centered. Allison's responsibility was bigger than she.

As a matter of fact, how much more rewarding and successful would her career have been if she had remained on Beowulf. I would be surprised if anyone here would think that Allison did not do well for herself. But on Beowulf she would have had access to much better infrastructure, support and technology. Leaving Beowulf would have been like leaving the gene lab at NASA for one at a local police department.

The family probably invested a lot in Allison. Not that her own happiness did not matter.

What nonsense.

Do not try to tell me how much the family had invested in Allison; that might be significant in a family that was only moderately wealthy, but for a family with that wealth and power what they spent was pocket change.

How selfish of Allison to go off with a man that was demonstrably made for her to be with, and proved it by almost single-handedly rescuing her from Manpower kidnappers.

How "much more rewarding and successful would her career have been if she had remained on Beowulf"; where if she stayed tied to her mother's apron-strings, she would not have found a solution to Grayson's disparity in baby survival rates nor found the gene defect that prevents 80% of the Meyerdahl genies from regeneration? Either of those feats would career defining for another geneticist.

The person that was incredibly selfish was Allison's mother and it is clear why Allison needed to get away from her.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Well now I can understand her mother's frustration. She might have viewed Allison's move as selfish and self centered. Allison's responsibility was bigger than she.

As a matter of fact, how much more rewarding and successful would her career have been if she had remained on Beowulf. I would be surprised if anyone here would think that Allison did not do well for herself. But on Beowulf she would have had access to much better infrastructure, support and technology. Leaving Beowulf would have been like leaving the gene lab at NASA for one at a local police department.

The family probably invested a lot in Allison. Not that her own happiness did not matter.

What nonsense.

Do not try to tell me how much the family had invested in Allison; that might be significant in a family that was only moderately wealthy, but for a family with that wealth and power what they spent was pocket change.

How selfish of Allison to go off with a man that was demonstrably made for her to be with, and proved it by almost single-handedly rescuing her from Manpower kidnappers.

How "much more rewarding and successful would her career have been if she had remained on Beowulf"; where if she stayed tied to her mother's apron-strings, she would not have found a solution to Grayson's disparity in baby survival rates nor found the gene defect that prevents 80% of the Meyerdahl genies from regeneration? Either of those feats would career defining for another geneticist.

The person that was incredibly selfish was Allison's mother and it is clear why Allison needed to get away from her.

Yet again it is proven that money is not the root of all evil, the sole pursuit of such goals is the root. For if money is your only pursuit, you have already lost the race.

I was NOT talking about a monetary investment. Heck, Allison most likely funded her own education.

Family businesses, or legacies as Theemile mentioned, invest hope and training and methods and attention and time, etc., to the younger generations to take over and step into their shoes. Lots of very successful family businesses and legacies have been lost because the offspring walk away from it. The offspring have dreams and aspirations of their own. Which is why I said that Allison's happiness mattered as well.

But when Allison left, I imagine a hole was left in the family "business" and Beowulf establishment.

I agree that Grayson's problem might never have been solved had it not been for Allison. And too bad for Grayson. But I shall hold my bet on what Allison might have accomplished if she stayed. Heck, she might have even come up with a regenerative therapy for treecats; who knows.

But thinking Allison would not have found the answer to Meyerdahl's regeneration problem is preposterous, considering that that was certainly a priority.

Thinking Allison's grandmother was selfish is being judgemental when she might have simply been thinking about the overall picture of "mankind." Not Grayson-kind.

Theemile's post upstream bears repeating ...

Essentially, but there was no family "practice" - more Family Legacy - It was already identified that Allison was a prodigy in Genetics (even for that family) and had the potential to lead the Beowulf establishment in new directions for centuries to come in the most prestigious institutions in the universe, another outstanding member of that outstanding family.

Her leaving was seen as the equivalent of a 19 century Imperial Crown Prince renouncing his crown and leaving to be a Marshall or Mayor in the American wild west. That they would be so successful that their city would turn into San Francisco, and they or their children would be Governors or Presidents, is immaterial - the optics at time were that the individual was throwing their potential, priviledge, and historical legacy out the window, in order to live a much smaller, though deliberate, life, far from civilized life.

Sounds like Grayson to me. Allison became a witch doctor. On Beowulf, she may have come up with original breakthroughs* - like the MA - in addition to solutions to old problems.

*Like the aforementioned original breakthrough which would involve treecats. Think how important it would be if Nimitz could regenerate.

cthia wrote:Sounds like Grayson to me. Allison became a witch doctor. On Beowulf, she may have come up with original breakthroughs* - like the MA - in addition to solutions to old problems.

*Like the aforementioned original breakthrough which would involve treecats. Think how important it would be if Nimitz could regenerate.

If Allison had stayed on Beowulf, then there would not be a Nimitz; Honor (assuming the marriage still went through) would more likely be working for the Biological Survey Corps, like her uncle.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Sounds like Grayson to me. Allison became a witch doctor. On Beowulf, she may have come up with original breakthroughs* - like the MA - in addition to solutions to old problems.

*Like the aforementioned original breakthrough which would involve treecats. Think how important it would be if Nimitz could regenerate.

If Allison had stayed on Beowulf, then there would not be a Nimitz; Honor (assuming the marriage still went through) would more likely be working for the Biological Survey Corps, like her uncle.

So Allison would have turned into her mother by short stopping Honor's wishes of joining the navy?

There would still be a Nimitz even if he had bonded with someone else. Soulmates are destined to meet. Especially when there is a natural device contained within Cats that identify soulmates. Honor would have joined the Navy, and still met Nimitz. Even if not, the treecats are citizens as well.

At any rate, my point still stands.

tlb wrote:If Allison had stayed on Beowulf, then there would not be a Nimitz; Honor (assuming the marriage still went through) would more likely be working for the Biological Survey Corps, like her uncle.

cthia wrote:So Allison would have turned into her mother by short stopping Honor's wishes of joining the navy?

There would still be a Nimitz even if he had bonded with someone else. Soulmates are destined to meet. Especially when there is a natural device contained within Cats that identify soulmates. Honor would have joined the Navy, and still met Nimitz. Even if not, the treecats are citizens as well.

At any rate, my point still stands.

Why say Allison would turn into her mother? I said that Honor would join Beowulf's armed forces, since that is where they are living. Anyway you were just defending Allison's mother for wanting her daughter to conform.

If there is not someone like Honor on that one specific day, then Nimitz dies trying protect his brother from the Peak Bear family.