Masada: State of Affairs

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I forgot to summarize this post accordingly. As long as the women do not think they're oppressed, then they are not. That would be blasphemy, and no woman wants to go to hell, or whatever Masadans fate is in the end.

Agreed, and not just women. From my point of view, all except the church leaders and a handful of others were oppressed. But my opinion is not theirs and as you said, if they don't think they were oppressed, they may find little reason to change their culture, despite any incentives offered by the technology and education now possible with Manticore.

I was hoping that over 50% of the population would have felt oppressed, which is probably enough to effect change in less than a generation. If only 5% feels that way, it will take much longer.

50 % is certainly a pipedream. Reason being that I always thought anyone who did not want to leave Grayson could have stayed. Right? Could wives have remained behind? Can they ask for readmittance from -- and passage back to -- Grayson even now? Would Grayson offer asylum to Masadan wives?

At any rate, I would guess that unmarried people could have remained behind.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The other point I raised is envy of Grayson. Those went from "poster child of neobarbarian who nearly lost a war to an even newer neobarbarian" to superpower in 15 years. There's no way that a Masadan army or navy could do anything to Grayson any more; at best, they could still perform terrorism acts and maybe create a fifth column again, but unlike their population, Grayson's has been educated and will fall for that less and less. If the Masadan hardliners still want to take over Grayson ("this planet is God's"), they need a full generation of their sons studying the technical careers that can only be found in Grayson or Manticore. And that can have consequences.

My guess would be that the Masadans do not envy the Graysons. They would chalk up their good fortune as not being worth it. It is only bad fortune disguised as good fortune, coming only after "selling their souls to the devil."

cthia wrote:50 % is certainly a pipedream. Reason being that I always thought anyone who did not want to leave Grayson could have stayed. Right? Could wives have remained behind? Can they ask for readmittance from -- and passage back to -- Grayson even now? Would Grayson offer asylum to Masadan wives?

At any rate, I would guess that unmarried people could have remained behind.

Considering how long ago the departure was (1350PD), I do not understand how relevant this is to the current satisfaction.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:50 % is certainly a pipedream. Reason being that I always thought anyone who did not want to leave Grayson could have stayed. Right? Could wives have remained behind? Can they ask for readmittance from -- and passage back to -- Grayson even now? Would Grayson offer asylum to Masadan wives?

At any rate, I would guess that unmarried people could have remained behind.

Considering how long ago the departure was (1350PD), I do not understand how relevant this is to the current satisfaction.

I was thinking that if you follow someone to hell on a one-way train, they are not feeling so oppressed.

But you have a good point, if I understand your point. How would the Masadans characterize their present dilemma?

What is the lesser of the two evils. A planet not intended for them occupied by sinners telling them what to do? Or reintegration into Grayson society and able to practice their own religion and flee the hardliners who may have corrupted Austin's teachings.

I sure would be interested in the original biblical text, which is also a pipedream.

Why is there so much divergence in the text? It was rewritten or reinterpreted on Grayson, right, as I recall? And Masada disagreed with the new version?

I wonder if there is a possibility to fall back on the original "teachings" in Idaho before they left Old Earth.

cthia wrote:I was thinking that if you follow someone to hell on a one-way train, they are not feeling so oppressed.

Who says they were given a choice? The women would not have been asked; they'd simply have been carried along, their opinion ignored.

That actually reminds me that women should have been three quarters of the population carried off to Masada. And since the 3:1 or 4:1 ratio was genetics, not environmental, the population of Masada should have a similar split as Grayson did. So if women were dissatisfied with their situation prior to the occupation, the rate could have been 75% or 80% of the population, not just 50%.

Why is there so much divergence in the text? It was rewritten or reinterpreted on Grayson, right, as I recall? And Masada disagreed with the new version?

I wonder if there is a possibility to fall back on the original "teachings" in Idaho before they left Old Earth.

Unlikely, because no such copies are likely to exist. They departed prior to the Final Wars and likely took all their teachings with them.

We also know that, after landing on Grayson, they modified their teachings somewhat, because of the health risks. They would have completely died off otherwise. But similarly, the original text is likely to have been lost to history.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I was thinking that if you follow someone to hell on a one-way train, you are not feeling so oppressed.

Who says they were given a choice? The women would not have been asked; they'd simply have been carried along, their opinion ignored.

You are probably right that they most likely were not given a choice. The Masadans also had demands they wanted granted before they agreed to the trip. And those demands may have expanded to ignoring any pleas of their wives for asylum. But I am not so sure they could speak for unmarried people.

At any rate, what about now that they are occupied? I am hard pressed to believe that some Masadans wouldn't be asking to leave; even if only the wives who sought revenge, for fear there may be some sort of reprisals later. Even if only in the form of ostracism.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That actually reminds me that women should have been three quarters of the population carried off to Masada. And since the 3:1 or 4:1 ratio was genetics, not environmental, the population of Masada should have a similar split as Grayson did. So if women were dissatisfied with their situation prior to the occupation, the rate could have been 75% or 80% of the population, not just 50%.

Interesting. I need to put this on hold. More later.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Why is there so much divergence in the text? It was rewritten or reinterpreted on Grayson, right, as I recall? And Masada disagreed with the new version?

I wonder if there is a possibility to fall back on the original "teachings" in Idaho before they left Old Earth.

Unlikely, because no such copies are likely to exist. They departed prior to the Final Wars and likely took all their teachings with them.

We also know that, after landing on Grayson, they modified their teachings somewhat, because of the health risks. They would have completely died off otherwise. But similarly, the original text is likely to have been lost to history.

But that would just be a simple matter of importing a copy from Old Earth. I am certain there are copies of the Bible that was used then in that denomination, and there are most likely churches that are still practicing. Matter of fact, perhaps the very educated Grayson, or Manticore, has a digital copy.

cthia wrote:But that would just be a simple matter of importing a copy from Old Earth. I am certain there are copies of the Bible that was used then in that denomination, and there are most likely churches that are still practicing. Matter of fact, perhaps the very educated Grayson, or Manticore, has a digital copy.

Why would there be a copy on Earth? In 314PD Austin Grayson leads his followers in a sub-light colony ship to abandon Earth and on 988PD they found Grayson, 10 years later he dies; meanwhile Earth goes though a "Final War" that ends 943PD, leaving Earth devastated by the effects of bioweapons and genetically-engineered "super soldiers." What little that might have been left behind could easily have been destroyed during the war.

Anyway, why would the Masadans accept a foreign "bible", even it was claimed to be Austin's original work? Certainly not from their enemies who could be passing off a forgery.

tlb wrote:Why would there be a copy on Earth? In 314PD Austin Grayson leads his followers in a sub-light colony ship to abandon Earth and on 988PD they found Grayson, 10 years later he dies; meanwhile Earth goes though a "Final War" that ends 943PD, leaving Earth devastated by the effects of bioweapons and genetically-engineered "super soldiers." What little that might have been left behind could easily have been destroyed during the war.

Anyway, why would the Masadans accept a foreign "bible", even it was claimed to be Austin's original work? Certainly not from their enemies who could be passing off a forgery.

Indeed.

First, I don't think Austin Grayson would have left a copy in a well-preserved and intentional location (like the National Archives or Library of Congress). I'd expect that they kept most of those a secret anyway.

Second, any copies that had been left behind would be lost to history because of the Final Wars. A lot of records would have been lost. I don't know what our record-keeping is going to look like in the next 400 years, but we are right now creating more content than we can index. We are losing information not because it ceases to exist, but because it is buried in the noise of everything else. Lose those indices and the data is practically gone.

But it is possible some colonies kept copies, maybe just accidentally. It would be easy to simply copy all of Wikipedia and all other sources of knowledge and put them in your colony ship (in multiple redundant backups), because you never know what information you may need on your new planet.

That brings to the final problem that tlb alluded to: authenticating such a copy. It would be extremely difficult to prove that it is an Austin Grayson original text.

This is all objective. I'm not even going into the subjective bits.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:Why would there be a copy on Earth? In 314PD Austin Grayson leads his followers in a sub-light colony ship to abandon Earth and on 988PD they found Grayson, 10 years later he dies; meanwhile Earth goes though a "Final War" that ends 943PD, leaving Earth devastated by the effects of bioweapons and genetically-engineered "super soldiers." What little that might have been left behind could easily have been destroyed during the war.

Anyway, why would the Masadans accept a foreign "bible", even it was claimed to be Austin's original work? Certainly not from their enemies who could be passing off a forgery.

Indeed.

First, I don't think Austin Grayson would have left a copy in a well-preserved and intentional location (like the National Archives or Library of Congress). I'd expect that they kept most of those a secret anyway.

Second, any copies that had been left behind would be lost to history because of the Final Wars. A lot of records would have been lost. I don't know what our record-keeping is going to look like in the next 400 years, but we are right now creating more content than we can index. We are losing information not because it ceases to exist, but because it is buried in the noise of everything else. Lose those indices and the data is practically gone.

But it is possible some colonies kept copies, maybe just accidentally. It would be easy to simply copy all of Wikipedia and all other sources of knowledge and put them in your colony ship (in multiple redundant backups), because you never know what information you may need on your new planet.

That brings to the final problem that tlb alluded to: authenticating such a copy. It would be extremely difficult to prove that it is an Austin Grayson original text.

This is all objective. I'm not even going into the subjective bits.

I think perhaps I have been misunderstood. I am talking about the original text that Austin Grayson himself subverted. The original colony of Grayson was following some kind of "denomination" on Old Earth in Idaho. Austin Grayson altered the original teachings to fit with life in space, and to conform to his -- not the original -- teachings of God.

Although, and I have always wondered about this, it seems Austin Grayson may have incorporated both Mormon and Muslim teachings.

But those texts would certainly still exist in even millions of more Bibles than before the Final War, because of the Final War. If ever man needed religion, would have been then.

There is a saying that floats around in religious circles. Paraphrased. "When man is at his lowest point, when he is lying on his back on his death bed and can only look up, believers that have backslid and non-believers alike, that is when they will all call out to the Lord.

It is believed that a copy of the Bible will always be saved even in the face of Armageddon.

tlb wrote:Why would there be a copy on Earth? In 314PD Austin Grayson leads his followers in a sub-light colony ship to abandon Earth and on 988PD they found Grayson, 10 years later he dies; meanwhile Earth goes though a "Final War" that ends 943PD, leaving Earth devastated by the effects of bioweapons and genetically-engineered "super soldiers." What little that might have been left behind could easily have been destroyed during the war.

Anyway, why would the Masadans accept a foreign "bible", even it was claimed to be Austin's original work? Certainly not from their enemies who could be passing off a forgery.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Indeed.

First, I don't think Austin Grayson would have left a copy in a well-preserved and intentional location (like the National Archives or Library of Congress). I'd expect that they kept most of those a secret anyway.

Second, any copies that had been left behind would be lost to history because of the Final Wars. A lot of records would have been lost. I don't know what our record-keeping is going to look like in the next 400 years, but we are right now creating more content than we can index. We are losing information not because it ceases to exist, but because it is buried in the noise of everything else. Lose those indices and the data is practically gone.

But it is possible some colonies kept copies, maybe just accidentally. It would be easy to simply copy all of Wikipedia and all other sources of knowledge and put them in your colony ship (in multiple redundant backups), because you never know what information you may need on your new planet.

That brings to the final problem that tlb alluded to: authenticating such a copy. It would be extremely difficult to prove that it is an Austin Grayson original text.

This is all objective. I'm not even going into the subjective bits.

cthia wrote:I think perhaps I have been misunderstood. I am talking about the original text that Austin Grayson himself subverted. The original colony of Grayson was following some kind of "denomination" on Old Earth in Idaho. Austin Grayson altered the original teachings to fit with life in space, and to conform to his -- not the original -- teachings of God.

Although, and I have always wondered about this, it seems Austin Grayson may have incorporated both Mormon and Muslim teachings.

But those texts would certainly still exist in even millions of more Bibles than before the Final War, because of the Final War. If ever man needed religion, would have been then.

There is a saying that floats around in religious circles. Paraphrased. "When man is at his lowest point, when he is lying on his back on his death bed and can only look up, believers that have backslid and non-believers alike, that is when they will all call out to the Lord.

It is believed that a copy of the Bible will always be saved even in the face of Armageddon.

If Masada is not going to be interested in an off-world copy of the original teachings of Austin (because of the possibility of forgery), then why would they care about anything that was pre-Austin. They fought a civil war over whoever was interpreting Austin correctly; anything else might be of historical interest, but the Faithful are only interested in their religious "truth".

You said that Masada would reject anyone saying that they were religiously oppressed, but they would reject even stronger the statement that Austin's teaching subverted something truer. Even Grayson would reject that statement, although they would be more likely to take a historical interest in prior materials.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Why would there be a copy on Earth? In 314PD Austin Grayson leads his followers in a sub-light colony ship to abandon Earth and on 988PD they found Grayson, 10 years later he dies; meanwhile Earth goes though a "Final War" that ends 943PD, leaving Earth devastated by the effects of bioweapons and genetically-engineered "super soldiers." What little that might have been left behind could easily have been destroyed during the war.

Anyway, why would the Masadans accept a foreign "bible", even it was claimed to be Austin's original work? Certainly not from their enemies who could be passing off a forgery.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Indeed.

First, I don't think Austin Grayson would have left a copy in a well-preserved and intentional location (like the National Archives or Library of Congress). I'd expect that they kept most of those a secret anyway.

Second, any copies that had been left behind would be lost to history because of the Final Wars. A lot of records would have been lost. I don't know what our record-keeping is going to look like in the next 400 years, but we are right now creating more content than we can index. We are losing information not because it ceases to exist, but because it is buried in the noise of everything else. Lose those indices and the data is practically gone.

But it is possible some colonies kept copies, maybe just accidentally. It would be easy to simply copy all of Wikipedia and all other sources of knowledge and put them in your colony ship (in multiple redundant backups), because you never know what information you may need on your new planet.

That brings to the final problem that tlb alluded to: authenticating such a copy. It would be extremely difficult to prove that it is an Austin Grayson original text.

This is all objective. I'm not even going into the subjective bits.

cthia wrote:I think perhaps I have been misunderstood. I am talking about the original text that Austin Grayson himself subverted. The original colony of Grayson was following some kind of "denomination" on Old Earth in Idaho. Austin Grayson altered the original teachings to fit with life in space, and to conform to his -- not the original -- teachings of God.

Although, and I have always wondered about this, it seems Austin Grayson may have incorporated both Mormon and Muslim teachings.

But those texts would certainly still exist in even millions of more Bibles than before the Final War, because of the Final War. If ever man needed religion, would have been then.

There is a saying that floats around in religious circles. Paraphrased. "When man is at his lowest point, when he is lying on his back on his death bed and can only look up, believers that have backslid and non-believers alike, that is when they will all call out to the Lord.

It is believed that a copy of the Bible will always be saved even in the face of Armageddon.

If Masada is not going to be interested in an off-world copy of the original teachings of Austin (because of the possibility of forgery), then why would they care about anything that was pre-Austin. They fought a civil war over whoever was interpreting Austin correctly; anything else might be of historical interest, but the Faithful are only interested in their religious "truth".

You said that Masada would reject anyone saying that they were religiously oppressed, but they would reject even stronger the statement that Austin's teaching subverted something truer. Even Grayson would reject that statement, although they would be more likely to take a historical interest in prior materials.

Good points.

I said Masada would reject heathens suggesting "oppression." The Faithful, or some of the people of the Faithful, can arrive at certain conclusions on their own.

But you are forsaking the original post (third post of this page) that spawned this hope & epiphany. I am specifically talking about a splinter group that might want to leave Masada and practice their own brand of religion. Or even establish a new religion on Masada.

I am suggesting a splinter sect that falls right smack dab in the middle between what is taught on Grayson and what is taught on Masada. Which, ironically, would become the "New Moderates" worshipping to a rewritten text that would be like the New Testament of Austin Grayson.

At any rate, an off-world copy of the original manuscript that was taught in Idaho is easy to verify. Send a respresentative to Old Earth to visit an authentic church in Idaho that is still practicing that denomination.

It is my notion of "the lesser of two evils."


Everyone is talking about educating the people of Masada. But what form would that education take? General education or religious education? At any rate, changes will not occur overnight. It starts with a small sect that grows into a full blown denomination. A branch of the branch of the Faithful ... of the branch of Austin Grayson ... of the branch of Idaho, if you will.

The roots of Faith.