"Why are you still alive?"

Brigade XO wrote:Possibly some time in the next few years, it MAY come out that Galton was the actual produces of all those "updated" cataphracts (they didn't come from Technodyne or Mesa) to Raging Justice.

I'm pretty sure we already know that. That's one of the datum that led Zilwicki and Ruth on triangulating just where Galton had to be: transit times for the delivery to Filareta.

We have been told of NO Galton SDF (or whatever you want to call them) hyper-capable warships that were either in any other system nor, for that matter, escaped and ran from the defeat and apparent mass suicide with the forts etc at Galton. Why?

Because they were irrelevant to the plot. The Galton Navy had 67 superdreadnoughts, 17 of which were podlayers, in 3 different classes. Is there any reason to think Galton would build them without hyperdrives?

No, it's likely they and all the warships above a destroyer were hypercabable. It just happened that they played little in the Battle of Galton and they simply couldn't escape. Honor could shoot them down within 15 minutes if they tried to run, so they just sat there contributing whatever defences they could to the system infrastructure.

Perhaps we will "discover" that much of the "SLN" equipment that was distributed by the operations people like Firebrand were associated with was actualy illegal copies of SLN equipment made by and at Galton but it still would have needed to be moved. Heck, even if that kind of arrangement was less expensive in the long run that typical ArmsDealer stuff stealing (but still having to pay for) legitimate SLN arms, what did Galton get for it in return? Credits- to spend where? Food- they had a nice usable planet under what sounded like genetic slave labor to produce all the food they needed. So what is the deal?

Possible, but like you're implying, the system was self-sufficient so it didn't need to exchange credits with anyone. Its sole reason for communication with the outside Galaxy was to support the Alignment's goal.

And NOBODY seems to know anything about Galton.....no suppliers, no customers, no shipping companies. Way too many dead ends.

Probably there weren't any. The system was entirely self-sufficient because it was designed from the scratch to be so. From mining to smelting to shipbuilding and molycircs. Quite a lot of it may have been the result of industrial espionage, but no one would have cared if those products never came to market to compete with those whose designs were purloined.

Brigade XO wrote:Perhaps we will "discover" that much of the "SLN" equipment that was distributed by the operations people like Firebrand were associated with was actualy illegal copies of SLN equipment made by and at Galton but it still would have needed to be moved. Heck, even if that kind of arrangement was less expensive in the long run that typical ArmsDealer stuff stealing (but still having to pay for) legitimate SLN arms, what did Galton get for it in return? Credits- to spend where? Food- they had a nice usable planet under what sounded like genetic slave labor to produce all the food they needed. So what is the deal?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Possible, but like you're implying, the system was self-sufficient so it didn't need to exchange credits with anyone. Its sole reason for communication with the outside Galaxy was to support the Alignment's goal.

Considering the amount of slush funds the Malign could deploy; it would be simpler to obtain real SLN reconditioned weapons, than to suppose that Galton had to make copies. After all we do not believe that Galton manufactured the fourteen Solarian Indefatigable-class battlecruisers that were offered to Monica and they were much more expensive than any other war materials reported.

The MA threw an entire planet, Mesa, under the bus. They threw Galton under the bus. They can also throw one of their companies or affiliations under the bus. They can easily implicate Technodyne or some other company.

tlb wrote:Considering the amount of slush funds the Malign could deploy; it would be simpler to obtain real SLN reconditioned weapons, than to suppose that Galton had to make copies. After all we do not believe that Galton manufactured the fourteen Solarian Indefatigable-class battlecruisers that were offered to Monica and they were much more expensive than any other war materials reported.

You're quite right about Monica and other Alignment's cats paws. But I was referring to the MAlign's own needs. They couldn't use the SLN surplus because they wanted their own fighting force to be ahead of everyone else, for when the time came. They did that by borrowing, begging, and stealing everyone else's research that they could, doing their own legitimate research (q.v. graserhead and streak drive), and also by pushing down everyone else that they saw.

They fell for the illusion that the SLN was the best and that's what they spied upon and held back. Like everyone else, they missed the leap ahead in the Haven Sector until late, but unlike the SLN, they did react as soon as they could. It's entirely possible that the Galton Navy launched their first SD(P) before the IAN did; they definitely did before the ESN.

tlb wrote:Considering the amount of slush funds the Malign could deploy; it would be simpler to obtain real SLN reconditioned weapons, than to suppose that Galton had to make copies. After all we do not believe that Galton manufactured the fourteen Solarian Indefatigable-class battlecruisers that were offered to Monica and they were much more expensive than any other war materials reported.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:You're quite right about Monica and other Alignment's cats paws. But I was referring to the MAlign's own needs. They couldn't use the SLN surplus because they wanted their own fighting force to be ahead of everyone else, for when the time came. They did that by borrowing, begging, and stealing everyone else's research that they could, doing their own legitimate research (q.v. graserhead and streak drive), and also by pushing down everyone else that they saw.

They fell for the illusion that the SLN was the best and that's what they spied upon and held back. Like everyone else, they missed the leap ahead in the Haven Sector until late, but unlike the SLN, they did react as soon as they could. It's entirely possible that the Galton Navy launched their first SD(P) before the IAN did; they definitely did before the ESN.

Okay, I thought you were limiting yourself to Brigade XO's remarks. The problem, as I understand it; was that the penetration by the Malign into both Manticore and Haven was more on the political sides that were not in power (after the Legislaturists were overthrown). They never had good connections into the naval technology side, which were not as morally porous as in the Solarian Navy.

You guys are overlooking what the Alignment's SOP is. The Alignment works covert and from the shadows, not overt and in plain sight. Think whispers in ears, not shouts in the streets in broad daylight.

They, traditionally, don't have fleets of freighters. Didn't need them. If they needed a freighter, then they whistled up one from ManPower, Jessyk or another Mesan company that they controlled from the shadows. With the advantages of the streak drive, building or retrofitting a dedicated fleet of ships makes sense now. You get a shorter communication loop and you keep your speed advantage a secret.

They didn't, until recently, need a navy either. They have seeded multiple SDF's with their people so they can control from the shadows.

Need a ship to interdict a wormhole junction? Contact you man in the Mannerheim SDF high command and there's suddenly Mannerheim BC's on 'extended maneuvers' in the system.

Learning that a Mesan System Navy officer is part of the Alignment is a no-brainer. Mesa was home until recently, so it's consistent with their methods that they have the whole command structure wired. People retire, people get promoted. A Commander is just captain or admiral in waiting. Once they decide to go overt, their seeded officers in the SDF's also gives them a cadre of professional officers who can train their own forces.

The Alignment is also pretty fanatical about compartmentalization. You don't keep a secret as long as they have without it.

After you learn too much, you are rarely allowed in the field. Millikin probably knows a little more than she normally would since she was picked as the number 2 in the Congo op, but she's still probably not the source Victor and crew are looking for.

The offical Mesan SDF was exactly what it appeared to be equipment wise- the SDF of an affluent independent system ran by a board of directors. The last part is why they had a bunch of decent BC's (decent in comparison to everybody not Mantocoran, Havenite, Andy, Grayson or the Sepoy Navy) instead of squadrons of money pit battleships, dreadnoughts or SD's that exceed their manageable threats but aren't going to be enough when the worst case (ie., Mike, Lester and the 10th Fleet or a goodly chunk of the SLN battle fleet) comes over the hyper wall.

I agree with the theory that Galton is a retconned throwaway- both in story and in a literary context. The GA knew that there's someone out there with certain unique tech and they aren't going to stop looking until they find them.

They weren't at Mesa, so where are they?

Enter Galton, which is made to order. Honor shows up, excises some of the angst in her soul, stomps them flat- because they were ordered to fight to the end- and that's that. All done.

But it's really not the end, is it?

What it accomplishes is a break in the action.

The GA was tracking them down and was hot on the Alignment's heels. Galton throws them off of the scent by giving them what they want.

There's just enough inconsistencies and missing pieces (like the streak drive) to keep those of a suspicious nature- like Victor, Anton and the Solly intel agents- digging. They won't have the backing they had pre-Galton ('We won, why are you still throwing around conspiracy theories? ') but it also gives a opening for the plotline to continue on a time frame more like RFC originally envisioned.

jtg452 wrote:They didn't, until recently, need a navy either. They have seeded multiple SDF's with their people so they can control from the shadows.

Need a ship to interdict a wormhole junction? Contact you man in the Mannerheim SDF high command and there's suddenly Mannerheim BC's on 'extended maneuvers' in the system.

That's what we knew about, until the last book. It made sense.

But as I pointed out in the timeline post above, the MAlign couldn't afford to wait until all hell was about to break loose to begin building the force that was supposed to seed the chaos concurrent with the Haven-League War. That had to have started much earlier. They needed infrastructure and trained personnel for decades if they were going to be more than pushovers.

And it couldn't have been the Mannerheim / RF navy, because those weren't supposed to be seeding chaos, but instead to be the shining beacon of hope amongst that chaos.

My conjecture is that the MAlign began building a second navy when the spider drive happened. Until then, Galton was supposed to do what we think the LDs will do.

After you learn too much, you are rarely allowed in the field. Millikin probably knows a little more than she normally would since she was picked as the number 2 in the Congo op, but she's still probably not the source Victor and crew are looking for.

That makes a lot of sense.

I agree with the theory that Galton is a retconned throwaway- both in story and in a literary context. The GA knew that there's someone out there with certain unique tech and they aren't going to stop looking until they find them.

And this is a problem. We're pretty sure it was a retcon, something added recently into the plans. Which means some of the clues that David had left behind for the last decade may become invalid due to that retconning. The entire fact that the MAN wasn't more than "a few carefully hidden light cruisers and destroyers" for example. The fact that Maddock himself would have come from Darius, not Galton. It would have made FAR more sense for him and for Milliken to come from Galton, which had a working and mature if untested navy and was about to launch their SD(P)s at the time of the Congo op.

They weren't at Mesa, so where are they?

Enter Galton, which is made to order. Honor shows up, excises some of the angst in her soul, stomps them flat- because they were ordered to fight to the end- and that's that. All done.

But it's really not the end, is it?

No, we know it and it's very likely the GA knows it. Which makes the matters worse, because the plot didn't really advance a whole lot in the last book. If it had ended two thirds of the way in, before the Battle, and the Galton scenes had been excised, we'd be exactly where we are right now.

What it accomplishes is a break in the action.

The GA was tracking them down and was hot on the Alignment's heels. Galton throws them off of the scent by giving them what they want.

There's just enough inconsistencies and missing pieces (like the streak drive) to keep those of a suspicious nature- like Victor, Anton and the Solly intel agents- digging. They won't have the backing they had pre-Galton ('We won, why are you still throwing around conspiracy theories? ') but it also gives a opening for the plotline to continue on a time frame more like RFC originally envisioned.

I don't think so.

Returning to the original timeline isn't likely either, given all the other characters we've been introduced since Eric happened and derailed it, like Ruth, Abigail and Helen. Ruth is clearly taking the role meant for Katherine, in intelligence, and Abigail and Helen the role meant for Raoul in the navy.

I also think the streak drive will have come from Galton, not Darius.

I can't believe that Ruth, Zilwicki, Victor etc and the Ghost Hunters will stop hunting. Just like I would find it hard to believe that Beowulf is going to stop combining forces to amplify the hunt.

Sure, it makes that the public posture of the GL backs off on the hunt for the Alignment and "the other guys" as that sort of lets the investigating teams stay out of the spotlight if anything surfaces in following the trails. Same with the SL & SLN- which is also going to be focusing -publicly- on dealing with the Convention and the problems that are going to show up as the result of all the things done up to this point by the Mandarins and the corrupt League operations.

Along with the GA (a lot of it Manticore) dealing with Mesa post regime change, the GA dealing with Galton- who the hell else is going to go sort through what of the mess is left and the rest of it's population, you now also have whatever problems of the SL turmoil will froth out to everywhere else. While the politicians and various navies deal with this stuff, the Special Investigations operations are going to keep (more or less quietly except for such ruckus as the Jessyk operation at Hole-in-the-Wall) digging and looking to track down stuff.
They have to, there are too many questions and not enough answers.
What general observations can be made (based on their own experiences and shared information) by the major participants about The Mesan Alignment.
1) They work though blinds and catspaws, fermenting problems and suborning people though greed, intimidation, blackmail etc.
2) they are absolutely vicious and will kill or dispose of their own people in a heartbeat to prevent loss or exposure of operations.
3) Killing people in the millions at a time isn't a concern for them other than to make sure that their machinations are not discovered (or exposed to the minimal amount possible. ---what we know of Houdini, Oyster Bay, the attack on Beowulf etc.
4) After all that has happened including Mesa and Galton and the manipulation of the SLN, NOBODY yet knows where the Alignment is located or what their full capabilities are. The more you look at all of these Alignment tainted operations, the more it looks like almost everything is boobytrapped or has some built-in self destruct component to obliterate evidence.

So, public face of the GA and eventualy with the to be SL.2 aside, how likely is it that the people who want answers, payback, revenge or keeping that bunch of self proclaimed (and self made) Improved Humans for continuing to leave so much death and wreckage in their fanatical drive to godhood over humanity are going to give up the search.?
Minuscule to Abysmally low.

Besides, now there are Treecats in on the fight and The Alignment falls into the category of "Not yet dealt with". So I guess there really are "aliens" in on the side of the GA.
(sentient - non-terrestrial origin, and in this case non-humanoid- tool users with their own civilization. Although they themselves can't build or fly -yet- hyper capable spacecraft, they have partnered with another race which does provide them with that level of tech capability. And they can learn and adapt quickly.

The 'break in the action' I mentioned isn't the 50 years or so that it would take to get Raul and Katherine old enough to be in decision making roles.

If the Alignment's smart, then it'll pull its' head in and hunker down in Darius for a decade or two with a very light, tightly controlled operational tempo out in the galaxy.

This is a lot like tracking game- or man- out in the wilderness if you think about it.

Victor, the Ghost Hunters and their Beuwulfian counterparts (because you know Uncle Jacques going to be looking long, hard and deep) are looking for clues- suggestions of Alignment involvement somewhere. Disturbances that don't make sense, unlikely outcomes, surprises in strange places (like Monica having a slew of BC's).

There's little difference between what they are doing and looking for bruised leaves, broken twigs and rolled rocks in the woods other than the setting. Like in the woods tracking game, the prey's goal is to break contact, confuse the tracker and go to ground- hide.

If you don't move, then you don't make tracks and the tracker will eventually give up on the area around your hide and move on because they are working under the assumption that they missed something, you're really elsewhere and they have been wasting time.

Right now, they are beating the bushes hard and searching for the next piece of sign that will show them a direction of travel. In the woods, you go back to the last evidence of where they were and start spiraling away from it starting with where the next step, blood drop, etc... or whatever you're following should have been placed and working out from there in a circle so you can spot a change in direction and keep circling wider and wider in case they didn't leave any proof of passage for a while.

The longer they have to look, the more likely the signs of their involvement will fade into the background- like grass springing back up right after being stepped on or blowing wind blurring a track.

If the Alignment does that, then Galton looks more legit to the galaxy at large. As time goes by, the lack of Alignment activity will only reinforce the belief that they are gone.

The folks that know better are few in number and their support in the higher reaches of the various nations will wane given enough time. Less support, less resources. Less resources, less 'eyes on the ground' looking for sign and the more likely things get missed. The lack of evidence that they are still around also attacks the credibility of the trackers, so, when they do find some signs, it's more likely to be dismissed as conspiracy theorists jumping at shadows due to their obsession.

jtg452 wrote:The 'break in the action' I mentioned isn't the 50 years or so that it would take to get Raul and Katherine old enough to be in decision making roles.

If the Alignment's smart, then it'll pull its' head in and hunker down in Darius for a decade or two with a very light, tightly controlled operational tempo out in the galaxy.

This is a lot like tracking game- or man- out in the wilderness if you think about it.

Victor, the Ghost Hunters and their Beuwulfian counterparts (because you know Uncle Jacques going to be looking long, hard and deep) are looking for clues- suggestions of Alignment involvement somewhere. Disturbances that don't make sense, unlikely outcomes, surprises in strange places (like Monica having a slew of BC's).

There's little difference between what they are doing and looking for bruised leaves, broken twigs and rolled rocks in the woods other than the setting. Like in the woods tracking game, the prey's goal is to break contact, confuse the tracker and go to ground- hide.

If you don't move, then you don't make tracks and the tracker will eventually give up on the area around your hide and move on because they are working under the assumption that they missed something, you're really elsewhere and they have been wasting time.

Right now, they are beating the bushes hard and searching for the next piece of sign that will show them a direction of travel. In the woods, you go back to the last evidence of where they were and start spiraling away from it starting with where the next step, blood drop, etc... or whatever you're following should have been placed and working out from there in a circle so you can spot a change in direction and keep circling wider and wider in case they didn't leave any proof of passage for a while.

The longer they have to look, the more likely the signs of their involvement will fade into the background- like grass springing back up right after being stepped on or blowing wind blurring a track.

If the Alignment does that, then Galton looks more legit to the galaxy at large. As time goes by, the lack of Alignment activity will only reinforce the belief that they are gone.

The folks that know better are few in number and their support in the higher reaches of the various nations will wane given enough time. Less support, less resources. Less resources, less 'eyes on the ground' looking for sign and the more likely things get missed. The lack of evidence that they are still around also attacks the credibility of the trackers, so, when they do find some signs, it's more likely to be dismissed as conspiracy theorists jumping at shadows due to their obsession.

What you are saying does seem like the smart thing to do; but it does not make the connections and steer humanity in the direction that the Malign needs. The Plan that they are trying to implement is seriously out of sync with reality. What they need is to make the Renaissance Factor the savior of humanity and a long period of peace will make the RF even more irrelevant.

All that said, I have no idea what the author(s) intend nor how many more books in which they intend to do it (I am guessing two). Will it be universal conflagration, as some suggest? I just hope we find out in the next year.