about the alignment (sort of spoilers)

the galaxy at large already knows about and accepts extremes of genetic engineering, as evidenced by the acceptance of escaped genetic slaves.

it is clear that it is the slavery part of genetic slavery people object to, not the genetic part. i simply can not see how the galaxy would suddenly object to alpha and beta lines (which in themselves are just another form of genetic slavery) but the same galaxy doesnt care enough to do anything about the genetic slavery from mesa.

if you assume that the above is true then once more it doesnt make sense to go to such extremes to further promote genetic engineering. and as you mentioned, genetic engineering has already occurred with the populations of grayson and manticore.

The galaxy at large does not accept genetic slaves, not fully. Don't let the view of the Haven Quadrant or Beowulf skew the reality. A lot of theoretically enlightened Solarian worlds, for example, have a general lingering distrust and fear of genetic slaves. Verge worlds dislike them even more if slaves are shipped in to take their jobs, even though they know that its not really the slaves' fault.

The point is that a lot of people would reject the Alignment outright. Beowulf's view, and hence the galaxy's view, is that creating genetic supermen heads towards creation of stratified classes where one is told from birth what you can or cannot do. It resonates too much with the Final War and the Scrags to be accepted overnight. And while genetic engineering has occurred for certain planets/planetary types, it has always been minor changes to fit them to the environment, not as some kind of scheme of forced evolution. Additionally, genies usually keep their genie status private. Remember that few people know the Wintons are genies, or that Honor herself kept her genetic mods fairly confidential.

Duckk wrote:The galaxy at large does not accept genetic slaves, not fully. Don't let the view of the Haven Quadrant or Beowulf skew the reality. A lot of theoretically enlightened Solarian worlds, for example, have a general lingering distrust and fear of genetic slaves. Verge worlds dislike them even more if slaves are shipped in to take their jobs, even though they know that its not really the slaves' fault.

The point is that a lot of people would reject the Alignment outright. Beowulf's view, and hence the galaxy's view, is that creating genetic supermen heads towards creation of stratified classes where one is told from birth what you can or cannot do. It resonates too much with the Final War and the Scrags to be accepted overnight. And while genetic engineering has occurred for certain planets/planetary types, it has always been minor changes to fit them to the environment, not as some kind of scheme of forced evolution. Additionally, genies usually keep their genie status private. Remember that few people know the Wintons are genies, or that Honor herself kept her genetic mods fairly confidential.

Even though they are minor changes to help in high g environments. There is another side to things too, many of the changes we'd make in ourselves are true evolutionary dead ends because they cost so much calorie wise.

jeremysaint wrote:hmm, i just reread the sections and on second reading i dont see the reference to planning to eradicate all human life in the manticore system, but i cant shake the feeling that i did read it...

if you have a chance, maybe you can expand on why the alignment needs the to create the renaisance factor to promote their agenda of genetic engineering. or for that matter, why they want to promote their agenda of genetic engineering in the first place. that last point is where this all comes apart for me. clearly they are able to perform genetic engineering with impunity in their own neck of the interstellar woods. why go to all this trouble and incredible risk, just to promote the idea elsewhere?

I absolutely agree with your assessment here. Why do they go to such lengths (and take such risks and commit such atrocities) when they already really can do what they want and could find other ways to spread their ideology more peacefully?
Yes, on the face of it their behaviour doesn't sound logical.

But to me the whole thing still makes a sick sort of sense:

I think the Alignment's problem is that aside from an - in it's view noble - goal it has a fascist mentality.
What I mean by this is that they are of the opinion that they not only knew what is 'best' for everyone but had the right to force everyone to accept those 'gifts', willing or unwilling.

This problem can pop up when people feel they were superior to others or that their ideology was superior.

This misperception on the Alignment's part is their true weakness and will be their downfall.

You know I was starting to think about this as more of who is "right" like 2 siblings trying to prove that they are correct.

Beowulf is the parent, the Chou (think thats the spelling for Honor's Mothers family who help write the basic do's and don'ts of genetic eng, and the Detwillers(sp?))

If I remember the back story (this is from my memory) the Detwillers left Beowulf when they realized they're views would never be the "Party Line" from the Beowulf government.

So they are out to prove that they are right vs the ones who opposed there view on the best way to "help" the Human species.

Bruno Behrends wrote:I absolutely agree with your assessment here. Why do they go to such lengths (and take such risks and commit such atrocities) when they already really can do what they want and could find other ways to spread their ideology more peacefully?

Yes, on the face of it their behaviour doesn't sound logical.

But to me the whole thing still makes a sick sort of sense:

I think the Alignment's problem is that aside from an - in it's view noble - goal it has a fascist mentality.
What I mean by this is that they are of the opinion that they not only knew what is 'best' for everyone but had the right to force everyone to accept those 'gifts', willing or unwilling.

This problem can pop up when people feel they were superior to others or that their ideology was superior.

This misperception on the Alignment's part is their true weakness and will be their downfall.

I think B.B. is on the right track.

I think it is about ego. I think it is about supermen saying to the whole damn galaxy, "We are RIGHT, and by God everyone is going to acknowledge it and thank us for it in the end!"

Now, the MAlign would never put it that way; they would rationalize it some way so they don't have to make that admission to themselves or to anyone else.

Honor's mother pointed out the arrogance of the Beowulf establishment. Leonard Detweiler seems to have had the arrogance of the Beowulf establishment in clinically patholgic proportions. I suspect that he was also quite paranoid. In combination, arrogance and paranoia worked into a raging persecution complex. His failure to persuade the Beowulf establishment of the brilliance of his insights was not his failure at all; it was the work of his enemies - people who lacked his vision - people who wanted to see him fail. It wasn't enough for him to takes his toys and go somewhere else to play. He had to take followers with him and build a cabal determined to spread his version of his game across the galaxy.

Given the division of Weber's interests, I suspect that he still plans some RELATIVELY narrow limits for the series. But, looking at what happened with the Dune series after the death of Herbert (senior), who knows what may eventually happen. The Machine Wars trilogy was my least favorite part of the prequels beacuse they were so bloody and dark. (Yeah, I know, jihads are inherently bloody and dark.) By comparison, I think a decades from now prequel chronicling the devolution of Leonard Detweiler and his conflict with his contemporaries could be fascinating. ?Quien sabe?

Looking at what Macbride was thinking I am not sure if they still know why they are doing it. It did not start off as a plan that would get millions killed it started as a way to do research and to impose these improvements on the the galaxy at large. This vision seems to have changed in the years building up to now.

Now it seems to be lets take control of everyone by force and screw the consequences and deaths involved.

As for their downfall I think it is more the way they are relying on certain events happening that they will manipulate in their favor. I also am not so certain that the SLN will be as easily destroyed as I used to be. I do believe that the league as is is doomed but that is not the same thing as saying the MA will win. I think that Theisman and Cachet's predictions of a revolt will be a prophesy and that it will become more of a Napoleonic Republic or something similar.

not the reference i was thinking of Duckk, but in the last chapter of the most recent book, President Prichart states that the alignment requires the destruction, not defeat, but destruction of both manticore and the republic of haven. i so desperately wish i could remember where the actual reference i was remembering is.

as for the alignments crazy plan...

unless the alignment is especially foolish, they would know that you promote ideas with logic, not violence. education, not guns. and if you have the time and resources to enact a centuries long scheme, surely you could have done a great job of educating society and promoting your ideas in that time.

what is more, and i think this is very important, skrags and the like were relevant in earths "final war" because (i assume) that infantry combat was relevant then. people were afraid of super genetically engineered boogeymen with impossible reflexes and strength.

infantry combat is utterly irrelevant in interstellar warfare such as that found in the manticore-haven wars. the entire marine corp of either manticore or haven could have been genetically engineered super soldiers and it would not have changed a single thing. for that matter, is a skrag in power armor especially more effective than a regular person in power armor?

as such i simply dont understand why people express fear or prejudice towards skrags.

human society has outgrown racial prejudice but has to develop some other unreasonable reason to fear or hate?

jeremysaint wrote:not the reference i was thinking of Duckk, but in the last chapter of the most recent book, President Prichart states that the alignment requires the destruction, not defeat, but destruction of both manticore and the republic of haven. i so desperately wish i could remember where the actual reference i was remembering is.

Which is correct, in that the government and way of life for the peoples of the Haven Quadrant would be subsumed by the Alignment's ultimate goals. Haven's rabid egalitarianism has little recognition for people who are supposedly born superior. Manticore (despite the now defunct Conservative Association), Erewhon, and Beowulf likewise have little in common with the Alignment since both are in their own ways very merit driven societies.

as for the alignments crazy plan...

unless the alignment is especially foolish, they would know that you promote ideas with logic, not violence. education, not guns. and if you have the time and resources to enact a centuries long scheme, surely you could have done a great job of educating society and promoting your ideas in that time.

what is more, and i think this is very important, skrags and the like were relevant in earths "final war" because (i assume) that infantry combat was relevant then. people were afraid of super genetically engineered boogeymen with impossible reflexes and strength.

infantry combat is utterly irrelevant in interstellar warfare such as that found in the manticore-haven wars. the entire marine corp of either manticore or haven could have been genetically engineered super soldiers and it would not have changed a single thing. for that matter, is a skrag in power armor especially more effective than a regular person in power armor?

as such i simply dont understand why people express fear or prejudice towards skrags.

human society has outgrown racial prejudice but has to develop some other unreasonable reason to fear or hate?

The US still is feeling the effects of slavery 150 years after its abolishment. Middle East countries range from distrust to outright hatred of European countries, the root of which can partially be traced back to the Crusades and imperial days. So it's not unfathomable that the most destructive war fought on Earth which produced billions if not tens of billions of deaths, destroyed much of Earth's capacity to sustain life, and preserved in electronic media for all time be remembered and feared.

As for the Mesan Alignment in particular, they did try to approach it in a reasonable, public manner, but was shouted down by Beowulf. And since Beowulf's position has not changed a single iota since Leonard Detweiler's time, the Alignment knows its not going to get a fair hearing at all, ever, unless it changes the context of the debate. Hence the destruction of the League. Could this have been approached in the kind of cold blooded Vulcan-like logic way over the centuries? Possibly. But history shows decisions aren't made by emotionless logic machines, it's made by people. And the people of a ideology or nation tend to counter derision with militancy.

So ultimately, I see no problem with the genesis of the Alignment or the strategy it adopted in light of what happened to the adherents of Leonard Detweiler.

In an earlier thread speculating on the SL economy it was suggested that inhabited star systems are far denser in the SL core than elsewhere because the were colonizing with sunlight ships. Since they couldn't just keep going they had to settle for marginal worlds. These worlds either had to be Terraformed or the colonists genetically engineered to adapt them to the world. Grayson is an example of GE mod adaptations as well as San Martin or the Mfcane worlds. Obviously geenies were accepted because so many were geenies. However the efforts to GE supermen whack led to Earths final war seems to have changed attitudes about genetic engineering and geenies. A lot of people pretended to forget that they were geenies just as some "white" people conveniently foget that the have some African ancestry.