Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests

Relativity

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Relativity
Post by Theemile   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:07 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5241
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

Loren Pechtel wrote:
Daryl wrote:I as well remember the quoted time dilation effects on people.
What to me seemed to have the potential to be more significant was the energy gained by missiles.
Everyone knows E=MC2, but equations can run both ways. Apart from the application where small grams of matter in fission or fusion can generate large amounts of energy; the "free" energy from missile wedges can impart massive energy to them as they near C.
As an object gets closer to C more and more energy is required to accelerate it as it becomes more massive.
An old SF joke is that it's not true that nothing can reach the speed of light in normal space, as such a ship would reach an infinite mass at that point, causing that universe to crunch around it. So only one ship per universe then you get a new big bang.


Back when the MDMs first came out I was part of a discussion trying to figure out what would happen if they hit a planet.

Ballpark answer: A pod of MDMs at burnout is equivalent to the dinosaur killer.

I have also been arguing that missile designers should be making their missiles attempt to ram if feasible, their warheads should be a fallback if that's not possible. (Note that it almost never would be possible, the objective is to make the defenders roll so as to degrade their defensive fire.) The missile kinetic energy makes the warheads look like child's toys, the only point to the warhead is that it can fire sideways.


As long as sidewalls are up, the missiles will just vaporize when they hit the sidewalls - it's what sidewalls were created for in the beginning. It doesn't change when you give them more KE - it's just Honorverse physics.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Relativity
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:17 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Daryl wrote:An old SF joke is that it's not true that nothing can reach the speed of light in normal space, as such a ship would reach an infinite mass at that point, causing that universe to crunch around it. So only one ship per universe then you get a new big bang.

It would also require an infinite energy source and produce an infinite time dilation. The object would become infinitely small.

Late edit: changed Early to Daryl in attribute.

.
Last edited by cthia on Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Relativity
Post by tlb   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:12 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4441
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Daryl wrote:An old SF joke is that it's not true that nothing can reach the speed of light in normal space, as such a ship would reach an infinite mass at that point, causing that universe to crunch around it. So only one ship per universe then you get a new big bang.

cthia wrote:It would also require an infinite energy source and produce an infinite time dilation. The object would become infinitely small.

From the point of view of the ship, it is the universe that has become infinitely massive; at which point the ship is torn apart by the infinite gravitational force.

Corrected Daryl's name.
Last edited by tlb on Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Re: Relativity
Post by Theemile   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:20 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5241
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

tlb wrote:
Early wrote:An old SF joke is that it's not true that nothing can reach the speed of light in normal space, as such a ship would reach an infinite mass at that point, causing that universe to crunch around it. So only one ship per universe then you get a new big bang.

cthia wrote:It would also require an infinite energy source and produce an infinite time dilation. The object would become infinitely small.

From the point of view of the ship, it is the universe that has become infinitely massive; at which point the ship is torn apart by the infinite gravitational force.

Don't worry, from the point of view in the ship, that will take forever to happen....
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Relativity
Post by tlb   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:56 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4441
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Daryl wrote:An old SF joke is that it's not true that nothing can reach the speed of light in normal space, as such a ship would reach an infinite mass at that point, causing that universe to crunch around it. So only one ship per universe then you get a new big bang.

cthia wrote:It would also require an infinite energy source and produce an infinite time dilation. The object would become infinitely small.

tlb wrote:From the point of view of the ship, it is the universe that has become infinitely massive; at which point the ship is torn apart by the infinite gravitational force.

Theemile wrote:Don't worry, from the point of view in the ship, that will take forever to happen....

A much lower cost solution is to unite it with an equal mass of antimatter converting it to energy traveling at the speed of light. This destroys the ship, but the other way also did that after much more effort.

Corrected Daryl's name.
Last edited by tlb on Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Re: Relativity
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:14 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
Daryl wrote:An old SF joke is that it's not true that nothing can reach the speed of light in normal space, as such a ship would reach an infinite mass at that point, causing that universe to crunch around it. So only one ship per universe then you get a new big bang.

cthia wrote:It would also require an infinite energy source and produce an infinite time dilation. The object would become infinitely small.

tlb wrote:From the point of view of the ship, it is the universe that has become infinitely massive; at which point the ship is torn apart by the infinite gravitational force.

Theemile wrote:Don't worry, from the point of view in the ship, that will take forever to happen....

A much lower cost solution is to unite it with an equal mass of antimatter converting it to energy traveling at the speed of light. This destroys the ship, but the other way also did that after much more effort.


tlb wrote:
Daryl wrote:An old SF joke is that it's not true that nothing can reach the speed of light in normal space, as such a ship would reach an infinite mass at that point, causing that universe to crunch around it. So only one ship per universe then you get a new big bang.

cthia wrote:It would also require an infinite energy source and produce an infinite time dilation. The object would become infinitely small.

tlb wrote:From the point of view of the ship, it is the universe that has become infinitely massive; at which point the ship is torn apart by the infinite gravitational force.

Theemile wrote:Don't worry, from the point of view in the ship, that will take forever to happen....

A much lower cost solution is to unite it with an equal mass of antimatter converting it to energy traveling at the speed of light. This destroys the ship, but the other way also did that after much more effort.


Who is this Early guy. That should have been Daryl. My fricking spell checker. I'm changing Early to Daryl in all cases here, and my original post. My apology to Daryl.

The Star Trek novel Vendetta features the last remaining warship of an extinct race destroyed by the Borg. The warship had tremendous weapons that could easily defeat the Borg exacted at the terrible cost of unacceptable collateral damage. It was crewed by the consciousness of the beings, and she was called Delcara. Delcara eventually commits suicide by driving the ship to the speed of light. Because we do not know except what theoretically happens at that point, her case is a cliffhanger, more or less. Very good book!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Relativity
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:10 pm

Loren Pechtel
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1324
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:24 pm

Theemile wrote:As long as sidewalls are up, the missiles will just vaporize when they hit the sidewalls - it's what sidewalls were created for in the beginning. It doesn't change when you give them more KE - it's just Honorverse physics.


Even vaporized a hit would be deadly.
Top
Re: Relativity
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:27 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4515
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Daryl wrote:An old SF joke is that it's not true that nothing can reach the speed of light in normal space, as such a ship would reach an infinite mass at that point, causing that universe to crunch around it. So only one ship per universe then you get a new big bang.

cthia wrote:It would also require an infinite energy source and produce an infinite time dilation. The object would become infinitely small.

tlb wrote:From the point of view of the ship, it is the universe that has become infinitely massive; at which point the ship is torn apart by the infinite gravitational force.

Theemile wrote:Don't worry, from the point of view in the ship, that will take forever to happen....


Before "forever" happens, the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation blue-shifts into the gamma ray range and the ship is vapourised by high-energy photons.

  • CMB wavelength: 2 mm
  • GR wavelength: 100 pm
  • Blueshifted by 20 million times
  • Required speed: 0.999999999999995c

Calculating how long it takes a ship accelerating at 500 gravities to reach that speed is left as an exercise to the reader.
Top
Re: Relativity
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:59 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Daryl wrote:An old SF joke is that it's not true that nothing can reach the speed of light in normal space, as such a ship would reach an infinite mass at that point, causing that universe to crunch around it. So only one ship per universe then you get a new big bang.

cthia wrote:It would also require an infinite energy source and produce an infinite time dilation. The object would become infinitely small.

tlb wrote:From the point of view of the ship, it is the universe that has become infinitely massive; at which point the ship is torn apart by the infinite gravitational force.

Theemile wrote:Don't worry, from the point of view in the ship, that will take forever to happen....


Before "forever" happens, the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation blue-shifts into the gamma ray range and the ship is vapourised by high-energy photons.

  • CMB wavelength: 2 mm
  • GR wavelength: 100 pm
  • Blueshifted by 20 million times
  • Required speed: 0.999999999999995c

Calculating how long it takes a ship accelerating at 500 gravities to reach that speed is left as an exercise to the reader.



I don't think the crew will see any change in the universe. Their brain - thus ability to process information - slows to the point that it is useless to them.

On paper that speed may be attainable, but in practice?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Relativity
Post by tlb   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:18 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4441
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote:I don't think the crew will see any change in the universe. Their brain - thus ability to process information - slows to the point that it is useless to them.

From the point of view of the crew in the ship, nothing has happened to them; it is the outside universe that changed: the stars in front have blue-shifted and the stars behind have red-shifted. Their brain speed has not changed by any measurement that they can make. You are considering them from the outside frame of reference, not from their local frame of reference.

None of these speeds can be attained in the Honorverse because of particle shielding failure.
Top

Return to Honorverse