How to Recover from OB was-RMN Pows Held by RoH Op Thund..

Sheriff Yoda wrote:Furthermore even if its doable economically doesn't mean that the vast majority of workers wouldn't just choose to stay on the station just to save money. If housing on the station is cheaper than housing and travel expenses on planet most people will choose that, esspecially if living conditions on the station are near what can be achieved on planet.

Based on the following passage, does this seem like a place where decently sized comfortable living quarters are going to be inexpensive?

"This particular Dempsey's lay at the very hub of HMSS Hephaestus's core, yet its designers had gone to great lengths to create a ground-side environment. They couldn't avoid the legally mandated color codings for emergency life support and other disaster-related access and service points, but they'd paid through the nose for permits to build double-high compartments, then used the extra height to accommodate dropped ceilings that hid the snake nests of pipes and power conduits which covered deckheads elsewhere."

kzt wrote:

Sheriff Yoda wrote:Furthermore even if its doable economically doesn't mean that the vast majority of workers wouldn't just choose to stay on the station just to save money. If housing on the station is cheaper than housing and travel expenses on planet most people will choose that, esspecially if living conditions on the station are near what can be achieved on planet.

Based on the following passage, does this seem like a place where decently sized comfortable living quarters are going to be inexpensive?

"This particular Dempsey's lay at the very hub of HMSS Hephaestus's core, yet its designers had gone to great lengths to create a ground-side environment. They couldn't avoid the legally mandated color codings for emergency life support and other disaster-related access and service points, but they'd paid through the nose for permits to build double-high compartments, then used the extra height to accommodate dropped ceilings that hid the snake nests of pipes and power conduits which covered deckheads elsewhere."

Granted its not going to be like an actual house but each family would make those decisions based on a varity of factors. I'm not saying that ALL the workers would make the choice to stay on station but without knowing what the state of planet to station transport is it isn't easy to say which would be the most practical choice.

So does any body know or guess how many RMN prisoners the Republic of Haven has?

I know it doesn't fit into the current discussion but it was something I was looking for. :-)

Or does everyone agree with Namelessfly and it is something like 100,000-250,000? Kind of a big variance for what I was thinking about.

T2M

Sheriff Yoda wrote:

namelessfly wrote:My recollection was that it was somewhere between 100 k and 250 k people. THese weren't the people with detailed knowledge of Manticore's most advanced systems, but they were highly experienced ship yard workers.

Yes, I get the obvious point. Just another pool of people who can help rebuild Manticore ship building after Oyster Bay.


Question. why does Weber presume that after working their butts off to get the python lump out of the yards, why didn't any of the workers take a vacation. Under normal, American practice where people get two weeks of vacation, I'd expect that one worker in twenty-five would be off the stations along with their family having some fun. If they were Europeans it would be more like one worker in ten would be bye bye. Given all of the deferred vacations while they worked on the python lump, I'd expect that perhaps one in five ship yard workers would be taking an overdue vacation when OB hit.

Now about those retirees or people who've moved on to other professions as you would expect in a prolong society?

I'm sure that the economic minister was taking the vacationers into account when giving his estimates on how long it would take Manticore to get back on its feet after this sucker punch.

The problem with retirees and those that have moved on to other jobs is that they would have to go through at least a refresher course depending on how long they've been off the job. Then you have to deal with WHY they aren't on the job anymore, even in the Honorverse I'm sure you've got the phenomena of unemployable people cause they are lazy, incompenant or both.

I mean suppose you have someone that got fired the day before oyster bay, do you REALLY want to recall that guy afterwards?

You certainly have a point, but I also want to point out that the Manticoran Public is very, very, very angry, and there is nothing like patriotic anger to bring out a nice work ethic. Look at WW2. Pearl Harbor got bombed, America got mad, and most of the population either enlisted or was working in factories to supply the troops. Heck, at least 85% of the bombers used in that war were built by all-women crews!! My point is not a criticism, but another angle, as it were. If I were those lazy guys, and all those people died, with someone I cared about guranteed to be among them, from all the damage and atmospheric hits and stuff, then I would be getting very UNlazy and very into rebuilding and going to bomb the hell out of the people who did it.

kzt wrote:Based on the following passage, does this seem like a place where decently sized comfortable living quarters are going to be inexpensive?

"This particular Dempsey's lay at the very hub of HMSS Hephaestus's core, yet its designers had gone to great lengths to create a ground-side environment. They couldn't avoid the legally mandated color codings for emergency life support and other disaster-related access and service points, but they'd paid through the nose for permits to build double-high compartments, then used the extra height to accommodate dropped ceilings that hid the snake nests of pipes and power conduits which covered deckheads elsewhere."

I'm not sure how that is relevant. First, Dempseys required "double-high compartments", which means changes in power, HVAC, and bulkheads for emergency compartmentalization. Second, it was "at the very hub", which means high-rent district. You can't tell anything about the price of ordinary living quarters from that example.

exolethrév̱ei wrote:

Sheriff Yoda wrote:

namelessfly wrote:My recollection was that it was somewhere between 100 k and 250 k people. THese weren't the people with detailed knowledge of Manticore's most advanced systems, but they were highly experienced ship yard workers.

Yes, I get the obvious point. Just another pool of people who can help rebuild Manticore ship building after Oyster Bay.


Question. why does Weber presume that after working their butts off to get the python lump out of the yards, why didn't any of the workers take a vacation. Under normal, American practice where people get two weeks of vacation, I'd expect that one worker in twenty-five would be off the stations along with their family having some fun. If they were Europeans it would be more like one worker in ten would be bye bye. Given all of the deferred vacations while they worked on the python lump, I'd expect that perhaps one in five ship yard workers would be taking an overdue vacation when OB hit.

Now about those retirees or people who've moved on to other professions as you would expect in a prolong society?

I'm sure that the economic minister was taking the vacationers into account when giving his estimates on how long it would take Manticore to get back on its feet after this sucker punch.

The problem with retirees and those that have moved on to other jobs is that they would have to go through at least a refresher course depending on how long they've been off the job. Then you have to deal with WHY they aren't on the job anymore, even in the Honorverse I'm sure you've got the phenomena of unemployable people cause they are lazy, incompenant or both.

I mean suppose you have someone that got fired the day before oyster bay, do you REALLY want to recall that guy afterwards?

You certainly have a point, but I also want to point out that the Manticoran Public is very, very, very angry, and there is nothing like patriotic anger to bring out a nice work ethic. Look at WW2. Pearl Harbor got bombed, America got mad, and most of the population either enlisted or was working in factories to supply the troops. Heck, at least 85% of the bombers used in that war were built by all-women crews!! My point is not a criticism, but another angle, as it were. If I were those lazy guys, and all those people died, with someone I cared about guranteed to be among them, from all the damage and atmospheric hits and stuff, then I would be getting very UNlazy and very into rebuilding and going to bomb the hell out of the people who did it.

You do have a vaild point on the lazy ones, but no amount of patriotic furvor is going to cure incompentance. At least not quickly.

Yea well, good thing few jobs require true competence. Most are just paper pushers even if they have a fancy "title". IE fire half the engineers at the lazy B(Boeing) where I used to work and everyone would get far more work done as there wouldn't be as many damned meetings with morons feeling they had to say something, their 2 cents worth, as they were forced to attend.

IF a society has a basic education level, IE analytical abilty and hasn't simply been passing kids through the science courses, but rather forces them to develop their analytical side of their brains, then they should do fine.

The problem comes when you simply pass kids through because said kids whine that its "too hard" and because said kids aren't taught discipline by their parents who either did or did not have a tough time with math and said kids will use that as a crutch or their friends who also are undisciplined.

I have done plenty of tutoring. Take kids who said its too "hard" and beat them on the heads to actully do the work and guess what the perennial "stupid" D or F jocks became B to A students. It wasn't my brilliant teaching either. Just forcing them to do the homework.

If the society has developed the analytical side of their brains, then anyone can do most jobs competantly in less than a month. Engineering a bit longer, but not really if the data is readily available. Assuming they have the teaching background in said subject. No you aren't going to take a HS student and create a well rounded engineer in a couple months.

You could create a structural engineer in a year though. They don't need chemistry/physics/Calculus and most other classes taught. Just structural engineering, Statics/simplified Dynamics, and simplified material science course. All of that could be dumped into a single quarter actually.

Mech engineer would take longer as more classes are needed to familiarize themselves with different disciplines along with rotating machinery, bearings, mostly dyanamic scenarios and stress risers etc along with discipline specific courses.

EE, would take a bit longer as it would require calculus, well more Differential equations than calculus as it uses laplace transform equations but this is little more than algebra in usage in control circuits. Actually building circuits and programming would need whatever form of programming base is used in said society along with basic circuits and hands on Lab testing and design.

All said folks could be taught in 2 years or less if no summer breaks are given. WOuld they be "well rounded" individuals? Nope. Would get the show on the road.

Business folks would take even shorter time period << less than a quarter of intense training >>

Techs, for trouble shooting, building etc? Mostly learned on the job as this takes ability to think and remember what has gone wrong before. These folks would actually be much harder to replace after OB than the usually "higher paid" disciplines like the engineers. Of course have enough engineers, throw them over the wall to the manufacturing side as most of them "tend" to be more analytical, though slower, than the techs to fix said problem. At least I have seen this to be true in real world experience. Eventually said engineer would speed up a bit, but in general, I have seen Techs who tend to keep things a bit more simple and get the job done faster than engineers.

Anyone can babysit a computer, or computers, if precise flow charts have been created for ALL situations and there is a big red button for STOP. Yes, even my utterly incompetent grandfather who grew up in the city with an accountant father who never knew how to hold a screwdriver let alone build a box. He never knew how to change a tire if he got a flat either.

Sheriff Yoda wrote:"]My recollection was that it was somewhere between 100 k and 250 k people. THese weren't the people with detailed knowledge of Manticore's most advanced systems, but they were highly experienced ship yard workers.

Yes, I get the obvious point. Just another pool of people who can help rebuild Manticore ship building after Oyster Bay.


Question. why does Weber presume that after working their butts off to get the python lump out of the yards, why didn't any of the workers take a vacation. Under normal, American practice where people get two weeks of vacation, I'd expect that one worker in twenty-five would be off the stations along with their family having some fun. If they were Europeans it would be more like one worker in ten would be bye bye. Given all of the deferred vacations while they worked on the python lump, I'd expect that perhaps one in five ship yard workers would be taking an overdue vacation when OB hit.

Now about those retirees or people who've moved on to other professions as you would expect in a prolong society?

I'm sure that the economic minister was taking the vacationers into account when giving his estimates on how long it would take Manticore to get back on its feet after this sucker punch.

The problem with retirees and those that have moved on to other jobs is that they would have to go through at least a refresher course depending on how long they've been off the job. Then you have to deal with WHY they aren't on the job anymore, even in the Honorverse I'm sure you've got the phenomena of unemployable people cause they are lazy, incompenant or both.

I mean suppose you have someone that got fired the day before oyster bay, do you REALLY want to recall that guy afterwards?[/quote]

You certainly have a point, but I also want to point out that the Manticoran Public is very, very, very angry, and there is nothing like patriotic anger to bring out a nice work ethic. Look at WW2. Pearl Harbor got bombed, America got mad, and most of the population either enlisted or was working in factories to supply the troops. Heck, at least 85% of the bombers used in that war were built by all-women crews!! My point is not a criticism, but another angle, as it were. If I were those lazy guys, and all those people died, with someone I cared about guranteed to be among them, from all the damage and atmospheric hits and stuff, then I would be getting very UNlazy and very into rebuilding and going to bomb the hell out of the people who did it.[/quote]


You do have a vaild point on the lazy ones, but no amount of patriotic furvor is going to cure incompentance. At least not quickly.[/quote]

So you are thinking 3 to 6 months for most of the labors and maybe a year for the designers...maybe pad that a little for those that need to understand gravitic theory to do their jobs such as building impeller drives?

I was saying that if you streamline the education profile instead of how its done today, you can cut HUGE amounts of time off the total, and in general most "education" is wasted as no one really remembers it. The part of education that is super critical is the analytical development of the brain. Once this is accomplished it is generally a quick process to "learn" a new subject as very little theory is actually needed to be understood in order to accomplish said job as nearly everyone does not actually "design" anything and the very few who do, don't require huge numbers of folks on their "team".

Besides the R&D at Wayland survived to emplace said theory to those coming behind them.

YMMV depending on the subject of course.

Sheriff Yoda wrote:So you are thinking 3 to 6 months for most of the labors and maybe a year for the designers...maybe pad that a little for those that need to understand gravitic theory to do their jobs such as building impeller drives?

SPOILER

At the book signing I attended last month, Mr. Weber said the Weyland servivors get shipped off to Bolthole