?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And I add again the Silver Bullets: when does the Galton data say they left? For that matter, where are the (fake) plans for them? We did hear that the Oyster Bay attack was planted in Galton, but we did not hear about the Silver Bullets. That was Benjamin Detweiler's knee-jerk reaction to Albrecht's death, not a pre-planned operation.

tlb wrote:It is too soon to be asking what plans will be found in Galton.

You are wrong in saying "we did not hear about the Silver Bullets. That was Benjamin Detweiler's knee-jerk reaction to Albrecht's death, not a pre-planned operation". It was the bombs in the orbitals that was the response to Albrecht's death, the Silver Bullets were discussed at the time the Malign heard about Mycroft while Albrecht was still alive.

I found this in an excerpt from Uncompromising Honor (first third) that RFC dropped and consider it to be the origin of both the Silver Bullets and possibly the Hasta missile that ended being developed at Ganymede, since both use a recon drone as a base - like Mistletoe:

“Essentially, Mycroft’s an updated version of the Havenites’ Moriarty system of pre-deployed missile pods and a dispersed constellation of control stations,” Chernyshev replied. “But it looks like they’ve mated that concept with the Manties’ Apollo and those damned Ghost Rider platforms of theirs. I’m sure you can figure out for yourself what that kind of fire control and, say, eighty or ninety thousand system-defense missile pods could do to any attacking force.”

Daniel’s jaw tightened. He could, indeed, figure that out. Words like “annihilation” came most readily to mind.

“Now, I know we’re not planning on poking our noses back into Manticore or Haven anytime soon, even with the spider drive ships, but the Sollies are going to have to do just that. Kingsford’s commerce-raiding notion was a good one, although I think our modest contributions to Buccaneer’s operational thinking will bite him on the ass before very much longer. Eventually, though, they’ll have to go into defended space again, and if they suffer another Eleventh Fleet debacle, the war may be over a lot sooner than we’d like. So when I mentioned this to Collin, he suggested I get on my two little feet and come over here and share it with you.”

“He’s thinking we need to combine what we know — and the Sollies don’t — about Manty technology with this new information and come up with some counter, then pass it on to Technodyne?”

“Exactly. And there’s also some information on that chip that I got Benjamin’s people to pull up for me — a fairly detailed description of something the Manties came up with against Moriarty. They called it ‘Mistletoe,’ and Benjamin thinks that might be a good starting point for some of that brainstorming you mentioned a few minutes ago.”

We will not know for awhile, but it is entirely possible that Galton produced the bombs that destroyed Beowulf's orbitals - the revenge weapons.

tlb wrote:We will not know for awhile, but it is entirely possible that Galton produced the bombs that destroyed Beowulf's orbitals - the revenge weapons.

The bombs, yes. Those were plain bombs; nothing special about that. We haven't heard about any investigation into where the bombs were from. I don't know if there is any information, it might be that all evidence was lost with the loss of Alpha, Beta, and Gamma.

My question is about the Silver Bullets themselves.

Indeed they are a copy of Mistletoe. And indeed they had been worked on much before Operation Fabius was conceived. So it is possible some paperwork came into Galton to pretend that they had made them.

But my question remains: if those were made on the chassis of the Alpha Drones that Galton deployed, and the GF did see them in 1924, would the Beowulf defenders have seen them in 1922? Given that this is Beowulf, not Haven or Manticore or Grayson or New Berlin, it's actually very possible the answer is "no." We know that Beowulf had barely just started producing the missiles for the GA and we know no warships had been delivered. That said, defences are the first thing that the GA would have supplied Beowulf, as evidenced by the Mycroft system itself.

So the question is: would they have deployed the most sensitive sensors, with what they had suspected of the Alignment itself? Would no one have considered the Alignment had a massive gripe with Beowulf? And given the type of stealth they had already evidenced in the Yawata Strike, would they have deployed those sensors?

The Silver Bullets deployed at Beowulf were to take down the defense pods deployed at Beowulf with Manticore's help. That was specifically to identify the primary nodes for updating targeting and controlling the missile defense pods and destroy them using the G-torp type grazers.

That entire Silver Bullets scenario was to give the SLN Buccaneer fleet an artificial window to make their attack pass at Beowulf and launch the HASTA and other weapons. The SLN had no idea the Silver Bullets existed or that anybody was going to intervene on their behalf in the attack. the grazers took out the system control nodes which prevented the Beowulf defensive pods from engaging the SLN ships at the start of the attack and so let them get their weapons off within usable tactical range of the targets in system.

However, that didn't do all that much for either the SLN fleet or have the anticipated effect on breaching the Beowulf defenses. There was another complete layer of defense already laid in and not dependent on the FTL pod control centers. They deployed a lot of empty freighters as a wall of impeller wedges as a barricade relative to the SLN targets (fabrication stations and related materials sites and tank farms. The freighters had skeleton crews operating them which (as ordered) abandoned them when the SLN attacks and the freighters were operated remotely but already in basic positions. The SLN weapons were targeted on the manufacturing areas- NOT the freighters which seem to have had minimal wedge power showing- so the SLN weapons were ignoring the freighters and were mostly destroyed by trying to fly though the full power wedges on their way to intended targets. Only a couple of manufacturing targets or tanks were hit.
The Silver Bullets did save some of the SLN ships but only because they delayed the ultimate launch of the MDM GA missiles and turned the pod defensive fire into a passing and then pursuit engagement instead of intercepting the SLN ships on the initial part of their run. Beowulf Defense was able to push the targeting data to the missile pods even though the FTL control nodes for the network were destroyed . The SLN got their weapons off but still had to pass though and be pursued as they tried to get out to the hyper limit by the MDA with Apollo. Note that the it was specifically mentioned that the force commander didn't survive as his ship was destroyed on the way out.

The Alignment wasn't trying to protect the SLN ships, only allow them to get in close enough to launch their weapons. They knew the SLN was going to get hammered but needed them to inflict as much damage on Beowulf's infrastructure as possible. Note that the SLN didn't fire at the habitat stations, just the non-habitat manufacturing areas. The whole idea of placing the three bombs was a combination of extracting revenge by the Alignment for Albrect etc not making it off Mesa and to make it look like the SLN deliberately targeted three habitats as part of the attack. Typical Alignment, kill as many people as you can and blame it on somebody else. Every SLN ship that was destroyed at Beowulf along with it's crew was just that many fewer future problems for the Alignment to have to destroy later.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The bombs, yes. Those were plain bombs; nothing special about that. We haven't heard about any investigation into where the bombs were from. I don't know if there is any information, it might be that all evidence was lost with the loss of Alpha, Beta, and Gamma.

My question is about the Silver Bullets themselves.

Indeed they are a copy of Mistletoe. And indeed they had been worked on much before Operation Fabius was conceived. So it is possible some paperwork came into Galton to pretend that they had made them.

But my question remains: if those were made on the chassis of the Alpha Drones that Galton deployed, and the GF did see them in 1924, would the Beowulf defenders have seen them in 1922? Given that this is Beowulf, not Haven or Manticore or Grayson or New Berlin, it's actually very possible the answer is "no." We know that Beowulf had barely just started producing the missiles for the GA and we know no warships had been delivered. That said, defences are the first thing that the GA would have supplied Beowulf, as evidenced by the Mycroft system itself.

So the question is: would they have deployed the most sensitive sensors, with what they had suspected of the Alignment itself? Would no one have considered the Alignment had a massive gripe with Beowulf? And given the type of stealth they had already evidenced in the Yawata Strike, would they have deployed those sensors?

All good questions. I expect that no information was lost when the Galton fortresses blew up (except the information that only the top few knew: the existence of Darius), because I expect that there will be data backups of everything in the remaining structures; otherwise the contingency could not work.

There was total shock when all the Mycroft stations were destroyed and that shock was that they were attacked, not that something got past their sensors.

tlb wrote:There was total shock when all the Mycroft stations were destroyed and that shock was that they were attacked, not that something got past their sensors.

One is a consequence of the other. And if the defenders had started trying to figure out the sensor gap instead of focusing on fighting the active threat of the SLN task force for Operation Fabius, they'd have prioritised the wrong thing. Figuring out the sensor problem was a secondary problem. And a full review for sensor ghosts that had been ignored was a post-battle chore.

Adding one more datum: the Beowulf defenders did not see the Hastas that the SLN did deploy until they started their missile stages.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:There was total shock when all the Mycroft stations were destroyed and that shock was that they were attacked, not that something got past their sensors.

One is a consequence of the other. And if the defenders had started trying to figure out the sensor gap instead of focusing on fighting the active threat of the SLN task force for Operation Fabius, they'd have prioritised the wrong thing. Figuring out the sensor problem was a secondary problem. And a full review for sensor ghosts that had been ignored was a post-battle chore.

Adding one more datum: the Beowulf defenders did not see the Hastas that the SLN did deploy until they started their missile stages.

I got the impression it wasn't so much that the Beowulf defenders didn't see the Hasta as that they didn't realize they weren't part of the "hefty shells of recon drones" that they saw the League BCs put out.

(Which makes sense - Hasta is basically an RD drive strapped to a missile pod. And at those extreme ranges, and launched before Ghost Rider recon drones could vector in for a closer look, all the RD drives are likely going to look quite similar. Even once all the drive shut down a Hasta going ballistic isn't going to look all that different from an RD going ballistic)


So, as often seems to be the case in war, the surprise isn't something you never saw; but instead something that turned out not to be what you'd dismissed it as.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Adding one more datum: the Beowulf defenders did not see the Hastas that the SLN did deploy until they started their missile stages.

Jonathan_S wrote:I got the impression it wasn't so much that the Beowulf defenders didn't see the Hasta as that they didn't realize they weren't part of the "hefty shells of recon drones" that they saw the League BCs put out.

(Which makes sense - Hasta is basically an RD drive strapped to a missile pod. And at those extreme ranges, and launched before Ghost Rider recon drones could vector in for a closer look, all the RD drives are likely going to look quite similar. Even once all the drive shut down a Hasta going ballistic isn't going to look all that different from an RD going ballistic)

So, as often seems to be the case in war, the surprise isn't something you never saw; but instead something that turned out not to be what you'd dismissed it as.

That was another bet missed in the defense of Galton: why didn't that mix of recon drones initially sent out, contain a large percentage of drones carrying grassers?

And why wasn't Honor concerned that they might all be carrying grasers or laser warheads?

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Adding one more datum: the Beowulf defenders did not see the Hastas that the SLN did deploy until they started their missile stages.

Jonathan_S wrote:I got the impression it wasn't so much that the Beowulf defenders didn't see the Hasta as that they didn't realize they weren't part of the "hefty shells of recon drones" that they saw the League BCs put out.

(Which makes sense - Hasta is basically an RD drive strapped to a missile pod. And at those extreme ranges, and launched before Ghost Rider recon drones could vector in for a closer look, all the RD drives are likely going to look quite similar. Even once all the drive shut down a Hasta going ballistic isn't going to look all that different from an RD going ballistic)

So, as often seems to be the case in war, the surprise isn't something you never saw; but instead something that turned out not to be what you'd dismissed it as.

That was another bet missed in the defense of Galton: why didn't that mix of recon drones initially sent out, contain a large percentage of drones carrying grassers?

And why wasn't Honor concerned that they might all be carrying grasers or laser warheads?

On the Opposite side, why did't the GA RD screen contain a heavy Mistletoe contingent to attack the stationary stations and pod shoals?

Theemile wrote:On the Opposite side, why did't the GA RD screen contain a heavy Mistletoe contingent to attack the stationary stations and pod shoals?

Why should they? The Apollo missiles filed from the hyperlimit were plenty to hit everything.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The bombs, yes. Those were plain bombs; nothing special about that. We haven't heard about any investigation into where the bombs were from. I don't know if there is any information, it might be that all evidence was lost with the loss of Alpha, Beta, and Gamma.

My question is about the Silver Bullets themselves.

Indeed they are a copy of Mistletoe. And indeed they had been worked on much before Operation Fabius was conceived. So it is possible some paperwork came into Galton to pretend that they had made them.

But my question remains: if those were made on the chassis of the Alpha Drones that Galton deployed, and the GF did see them in 1924, would the Beowulf defenders have seen them in 1922? Given that this is Beowulf, not Haven or Manticore or Grayson or New Berlin, it's actually very possible the answer is "no." We know that Beowulf had barely just started producing the missiles for the GA and we know no warships had been delivered. That said, defences are the first thing that the GA would have supplied Beowulf, as evidenced by the Mycroft system itself.

So the question is: would they have deployed the most sensitive sensors, with what they had suspected of the Alignment itself? Would no one have considered the Alignment had a massive gripe with Beowulf? And given the type of stealth they had already evidenced in the Yawata Strike, would they have deployed those sensors?

All good questions. I expect that no information was lost when the Galton fortresses blew up (except the information that only the top few knew: the existence of Darius), because I expect that there will be data backups of everything in the remaining structures; otherwise the contingency could not work.

There was total shock when all the Mycroft stations were destroyed and that shock was that they were attacked, not that something got past their sensors.

I'll assume this is an essay question on my own exam.

Without a lot of luck, absolutely not. Beowulf would not have seen them. The only reason the GA saw them at Galton was because the GA were in a battle specifically against the Mesan Alignment (and not against the SL navy) and the GA knew for certain what they had better be prepared for. At Beowulf, everyone knew for a fact they were in a battle against the SLN. And... the web of GR drones the GA seeded throughout Galton dwarfed anything that would have been deployed at Beowulf as an afterthought. Plus! When you are in a battle with a navy whose wedges that you see, who has the time, wherewithal or motivation to worry about unseen ghosts.

Do consider that even the MBS isn't prepared for another attack by the MA. The RMN's preparation currently stinks.

There is a serious difference in detecting enemy hardware because you are on balance, prepared and at battle stations while attacking an enemy than when you have been ambushed or sucker punched and are off-balance and defending.

In fact, these truths are why I have preached from the rafters for centuries that the MA will deploy these same tactics in the LDs opening phase of war. The LDs, along with their bags of tricks, will slot into place and attack in conjunction with a traditional navy. The RFN will simply be a diversion. The RMN will be concentrating on the wedge's of the warships that have just hypered in.