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SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinions

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:34 am

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I haven't read the entire thread. I started on the first several pages and got the idea. If my post is redundant, my apologies. I have read the entire e-ARC.

I loved this book. The Shadow series is abut the birth of the SLN successor states. Those nations will be born of fire and blood and as our dear Czech friends can attest to the value of accepting restraint to achieve peaceful compromise. The mainline Honor stories are about the war between the MAlign and the Alliance. These stories are about the death of the SLN and the nations that spring from its corpse. To tell that story we have to be introduced to nations and people in just a few books that RFC used nearly a dozen to introduce the mainline Honorverse.

I get the distinct impression that the introduction has just been completed and the story line will now commence in earnest. I just can't wait! Seriously, let's consider where the Shadow of Victory leaves us, shall we?

The Star Empire has just finished knocking loose the OFS from most of the star systems between Lynx and Mesa. They have proved to every system in the area that they care enough about their word that RMN Admirals will put their ships in harm's way just to avoid standing forsworn when their enemies make promises on their behalf. They accepted moral responsibility for commitments made to honest star nations made by their enemies and did everything they could to meet those commitments. This has become the standard for interstellar behavior for that entire region. This is the foundation of building a star nation in that region and a firm one it is too.

The Western portion of the Verge is now firmly pro SEM. They have in the 100 some-odd light years between Lynx and Mesa 3 wormhole connections; one in Poland(sorry but I haven't memorized the actual spelling), one in Lynx and one in Mesa. The polish bridge is but 64 light years from Lynx and has a significant FF base inside a week's travel time.

The North-Eastern parts of the Verge are quickly being secured by the Bad Boys of Maya. They stand to gobble up the MAlign's Manticoran promisses to targets in that region. They simply facilitate the revolutions that stem from MAlign efforts and accept the gratitude of newly freed star nations. They will of course openly acknowledge their relationship with Manticore when the time is ripe.

We don't know just how many inhabited systems are in those areas, but a wag puts between 20-30 in a volume of space similar to the Talbot Quadrant between Lynx and Mesa. Assuming a similar density around Maya and we see that RFC has just given the Allies approximately 100 relatively poor star nations to tend to in a volume of space equal to about 40% of the Verge. That makes the volume of space the Allies have to protect equal to the entire Solarian League.

What a setting for RFC death-rides! We get Honor's largely political story and a few larger fleet engagements (defense of Beowulf) on occasion in the mainline books. Now, we have the setting for constant battles between the odd RMN Roland convoy protector and the squadron of Nevadas. Going forward, I get to look forward to:

-Abigail's courtship with Indy Graham. I guessed this when first Indy was introduced but it appears to be progressing apace.
-Lester and Mike's budding relationship
-Steve Westman being dragooned into foreign service/intel ops in the new systems. He has the perfect cover as an "oligarch" looking to expand the markets he serves
-Scotty and Naomi kicking the snot out of increasingly competent FF commerce raiders
-Aivars' promotion to Rear Admiral and getting command of the forces defending the South-Eastern Verge
-Lots and lots of stuff RFC can have fun writing now that he has a suitable setting for the sorts of stories he is soooo good at writing.

As I said, I LOVED this book. Not just for the story, but for what it did for the viability of continued interesting stories in the Honorverse.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Sharp Claw   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:57 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
Sharp Claw wrote:
I am not criticizing the craftsmanship as you are still my current favorite author and greatly appreciate the effort and the 14 hour days to get your work to your readers ASAP after the schedule slipped. I think the disappointment, such as it is and what there is of it, is due to the fact that the last three books have all ended at basically the same point in time and we really wanted the story to move forward.

I believe you had said that you had wanted to consolidate the various story lines, like Torch and the shadow series, into the main honorverse story. You clearly believed that the plot needed to be thickened and all the back stories of the various characters filled in before you could move forward and that is the source of the self indulgent comment. I had really wanted the story to move forward and didn't think so much back filling of so many minor characters, like Damien Harahap was really
Necessary.

BTW, I resent the implication that I am some anonymous internet troll just trying to upset you and get a reaction. My real name and email are known to you and your mods and my criticisms are my real opinions and I would say the same things FTF. :evil:



I never implied that anyone was trying to "troll" me. In fact, my remarks about the intnernet and civility in discourse were --- clearly, I thought -- a "while we're on the subject" follow on to my comments about why longtime readers, because of their long investment in the series, got rather more of a pass from me if their language waxed less than fully temperate. Not a single word I said was untrue or inaccurate of the general population on the net, however.

I do think --- as I said, quite clearly, I thought -- that people sometimes (in fact, fairly frequently) do not choose the same words in written discourse (electronic or dead tree) that they might choose in a face-to-face conversation where the other party to the conversation's reaction an be immediately seen and factored into the communication. There's less bandwidth, if you will, which means that the ability to interpolate and adapt is much more limited. And I do think that's tended to contribute to a decline in the civility of conversation --- and especially of argument and disagreement (note the dictionary definition difference between "argue" and "quarrel") --- in general.

Is there some way in which any of the above are inaccurate propositions?


I completely agree with you about the effect of the Internet on our social discourse. Anonymous trolling, cyber bullying, shaming on social media, are all very ugly new things and there has definitely been a spillover into general social interactions. Witness our current Presidential campaigns as a case in point.
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by roseandheather   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:24 am

roseandheather
Admiral

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Henry Brown wrote:One thing that struck me was that around the middle of the book, there is a conversation in which it is mentioned that Tourville and Henke have similar command styles. Then when they met late in the book, they seemed to get along really well. I am wondering if this is foreshadowing a future personal relationship. As far as I know, both are single. Thoughts?


"Yes" and also "I TOLD YOU ALL SO" :mrgreen:

Notice that almost immediately prior to "meeting" Tourville (via vidcom) for the first time, Michelle was lamenting the lack of any men in the vicinity who weren't off-limits thanks to One-Nineteen.

Guess who is not off-limits thanks to One-Nineteen. :twisted:

Also I told you all so. :mrgreen:
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Annachie   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:46 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
I never implied that anyone was trying to "troll" me.


But I am trying to. :)


https://youtu.be/HLgQMtquS6Y

More seriously, am I right in thinking that there are a few key pieces burried in the book? Stuff that will be important in the next book.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:47 am

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roseandheather wrote:"Yes" and also "I TOLD YOU ALL SO" :mrgreen:

Notice that almost immediately prior to "meeting" Tourville (via vidcom) for the first time, Michelle was lamenting the lack of any men in the vicinity who weren't off-limits thanks to One-Nineteen.

Guess who is not off-limits thanks to One-Nineteen. :twisted:

Also I told you all so. :mrgreen:
Actually... Depending on exactly how the Havenite units were sent he might be under One-Nineteen.

If he and his fleet was sent as a cooperating allied force to coordinate with Mike's 10th fleet then neither would be in each other's chain of command and 119 wouldn't apply.
But if his forces were attached to 10th fleet, both forces under some unified Grand Alliance fleet structure, then he would be subordinate to Mike and hence off limits, per 119.

But David wouldn't do that to you; would he? :D
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by Henry Brown   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:53 am

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roseandheather wrote:
Henry Brown wrote:One thing that struck me was that around the middle of the book, there is a conversation in which it is mentioned that Tourville and Henke have similar command styles. Then when they met late in the book, they seemed to get along really well. I am wondering if this is foreshadowing a future personal relationship. As far as I know, both are single. Thoughts?


"Yes" and also "I TOLD YOU ALL SO" :mrgreen:

Notice that almost immediately prior to "meeting" Tourville (via vidcom) for the first time, Michelle was lamenting the lack of any men in the vicinity who weren't off-limits thanks to One-Nineteen.

Guess who is not off-limits thanks to One-Nineteen. :twisted:

Also I told you all so. :mrgreen:


If this relationship does come to pass, I hope we get to see Elizabeth's reaction when she learns who her 1st cousin is dating. I know she has come a long way in how she views Haven from her former point of view, but her reaction to a family member dating a RHN admiral could still be *INTERESTING*. :lol:
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by roseandheather   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:57 am

roseandheather
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Jonathan_S wrote:Actually... Depending on exactly how the Havenite units were sent he might be under One-Nineteen.

If he and his fleet was sent as a cooperating allied force to coordinate with Mike's 10th fleet then neither would be in each other's chain of command and 119 wouldn't apply.
But if his forces were attached to 10th fleet, both forces under some unified Grand Alliance fleet structure, then he would be subordinate to Mike and hence off limits, per 119.

But David wouldn't do that to you; would he? :D


HE BETTER NOT. He killed off Javier, he still owes me so big, and if I'm not gonna get Augustus/Estelle or Michael/Abigail, I at least want this one!! :mrgreen:
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:00 pm

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roseandheather wrote:
HE BETTER NOT. He killed off Javier, he still owes me so big, and if I'm not gonna get Augustus/Estelle or Michael/Abigail, I at least want this one!! :mrgreen:


Abigail and Indy have been written in the stars since Indy was introduced. See how Fate brings them together in this story?
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by roseandheather   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:05 pm

roseandheather
Admiral

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PeterZ wrote:
roseandheather wrote:
HE BETTER NOT. He killed off Javier, he still owes me so big, and if I'm not gonna get Augustus/Estelle or Michael/Abigail, I at least want this one!! :mrgreen:


Abigail and Indy have been written in the stars since Indy was introduced. See how Fate brings them together in this story?


::embarrassed cough:: i may have skipped straight to the part where lester and michelle meet because i was too excited and i haven't had time to read the whole book yet please don't judge me

Still not giving up on Abigail and Michael! :mrgreen:
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: SPOILERS==Shadow of Victory Comments, Queries and Opinio
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:15 pm

PeterZ
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roseandheather wrote:
::embarrassed cough:: i may have skipped straight to the part where lester and michelle meet because i was too excited and i haven't had time to read the whole book yet please don't judge me

Still not giving up on Abigail and Michael! :mrgreen:


I like Michael a lot. I just don't think he can bring himself to thinking of Abigail in that way. He met her as a snotty for heaven's sake! It's not like Hamish, who met Honor much later in her professional development. I just don't think that Michael is attracted to someone that much younger than he is.

No, Michael deserves something.....quirkier. Let's see now, he says reading his tea leaves and opening himself to the aethers of Fate....Yup! I got it.

Molly Delaney. How much more appropriate for both of them than that. I believe the egalitarian Havenite Chief of Staff would be the perfect match for Michael ever-so-aristocratic Oversteegan.
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