Reserve destruction

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Cheopis wrote:I've come to the conclusion that the reserve is simply DW's way to explain why the Solarian League doesn't bootstrap it's economy and start building effective counters to modern ships. Despite proof to the contrary, they don't think they need to. The MAN has enough people in place to cast doubt on the 'idiot' commanders that lost their Solly-tech ships to those 'neobarbs.' The people in position to make decisions are bought or bribed anyway, they just need to keep the popular revolt from happening until it will explode with maximum effect.

Seriously. The Sollies are the industrial equivalent of the US in World War 2. If they immediately decided to start creating a bunch of really potent light cruisers, they have PLENTY of old StateSec goons with practical experience wandering around that they could offer amnesty to in order to get consulting help. Not to mention the existing R&D teams that have been ignored. Or the intelligence reports that have been buried. Or the military observers that have been retired.

It takes too long to build new wallers that can function in a modern battle--and they have to develop the tech first. There won't be a Solarian Empire by then.

Eh, I said nothing about wallers. Wallers are not needed to destroy wallers if you are fighting defensively. Moriarty-style systems controlled by well-designed light combatants with little firepower of their own would be quite capable. This is canon. That's what happened one of the few times Honor had her ass handed to her.

The Sollies don't need to develop the tech first because it's already there in the hands of Statesec sympathizers and ex-Statesec agents around the universe. In fact it is very likely that at least a few Statesec sympathizers still loose in the Haven Navy who might be willing to part with some of Haven's tech for some credits.

There is VERY little Haven can manufacture that a core world cannot. Especially if they can get blueprints or working examples from defectors.

Even early MDMs with lightspeed controls utilizing repeaters for mass channels could be a horrible surprise for a modern Apollo-capable force trying to enforce its will on a planet with Moriarty-style defenses.

Cheopis wrote:The Sollies don't need to develop the tech first because it's already there in the hands of Statesec sympathizers and ex-Statesec agents around the universe.

The Sollies have to get over their "Not Invented Here" mental block first.

More importantly, tech transfers take time. Design and tooling to produce transferred tech takes time. Modifying ships to use transferred tech takes time to design and implement.

The whole conflict with the SL boils down to Time. For the GA to win, they have to destroy, disassemble, terminate the League and make friends with the pieces quickly. If they dither and procrastinate, they lose.

Cheopis wrote:Eh, I said nothing about wallers. Wallers are not needed to destroy wallers if you are fighting defensively. Moriarty-style systems controlled by well-designed light combatants with little firepower of their own would be quite capable. This is canon. That's what happened one of the few times Honor had her ass handed to her.

The Sollies don't need to develop the tech first because it's already there in the hands of Statesec sympathizers and ex-Statesec agents around the universe. In fact it is very likely that at least a few Statesec sympathizers still loose in the Haven Navy who might be willing to part with some of Haven's tech for some credits.

There is VERY little Haven can manufacture that a core world cannot. Especially if they can get blueprints or working examples from defectors.

Even early MDMs with lightspeed controls utilizing repeaters for mass channels could be a horrible surprise for a modern Apollo-capable force trying to enforce its will on a planet with Moriarty-style defenses.

StateSec doesn't have modern Havenite technology (specifically MDMs--they only know they exist). When Theisman shot Saint Just, it was just after Buttercup had been suspended by High Ridge. At that time (Ashes of Victory), the Manticoran Alliance had a monopoly on MDMs. Haven didn't get MDMs and SDPs until some time after Shannon Foraker was assigned to Bolthole (War of Honor).

Cheopis wrote:The Sollies don't need to develop the tech first because it's already there in the hands of Statesec sympathizers and ex-Statesec agents around the universe. In fact it is very likely that at least a few Statesec sympathizers still loose in the Haven Navy who might be willing to part with some of Haven's tech for some credits.

Remember that the MA has been at war with Beowulf for hundreds of years, Beowulf just hasn't noticed it. I would assume the MA has many agents on Beowulf. Having Beowulf manufacture all the fancy RMN goodies means you have to share those plans with a lot of people and organizations across Beowulf. What are the odds that someone working for the MA or the SL can gain legitimate access (or hack access) to those designs?

Or just that some freelance employee won't steal the plans and decide to see what the SLN will pay for them?

If the Alignment was getting Manti tech through moles on Beowulf, it does not appear (yet) in the books. The Alignment has taken some differnt tracks for propulsion and weapons. Sure, they have (we are being lead to believe) the Cataphracts by thier own research and design. What we don't see are Manti solutions for MDMs.

We don't see Alighment FTL communications. Sure, there were Ghost Rider drones in play when the SLN fleet was attempting to use the Sigma Draconus terminus but those might only in the hands of the RMN fleet, not hardware shared with BSDF. Or only very recently shared.

The "not invented here" syndrome could affect the Alignment as well though they certainly aren't hobbled in using what Solly stuff they can get their hands on.

Brigade XO wrote:If the Alignment was getting Manti tech through moles on Beowulf, it does not appear (yet) in the books. The Alignment has taken some differnt tracks for propulsion and weapons. Sure, they have (we are being lead to believe) the Cataphracts by thier own research and design. What we don't see are Manti solutions for MDMs.

We don't see Alighment FTL communications. Sure, there were Ghost Rider drones in play when the SLN fleet was attempting to use the Sigma Draconus terminus but those might only in the hands of the RMN fleet, not hardware shared with BSDF. Or only very recently shared.

The "not invented here" syndrome could affect the Alignment as well though they certainly aren't hobbled in using what Solly stuff they can get their hands on.

Uncle Jacques is certainly concerned about Alignment penetration on Beowulf, but yeah, it does not look as though they've got their hands on Manticoran tech judging both from what the MAN deploys and from the frustration the Detweilers have had about that technology.

The Alignment isn't omniscient or omnipotent; Beowulf's security is pretty good, even when they've not fully appreciated the kind of threat Mesa has offered til now; and when the BSDF hasn't been deploying Manticoran hardware to keep from letting the League see it, it'd've been under enough wraps and out of widespread use and knowledge in Beowulf that the Alignment would have had a plausibly very hard time getting it that way.

The Alignment isn't suffering enough "not invented here" or ubermensch arrogance not to have a keen interest in Manticoran technology, but there may have been an edge of that to keep them from pushing harder than they have to get it.

They should have much more complete penetration of Beowulf than of Manticore. Beowulf has always been the main enemy.

kzt wrote:They should have much more complete penetration of Beowulf than of Manticore. Beowulf has always been the main enemy.

At the same time, Beowulf has been running covert operations teams against Manpower for a very long time. It's likely there are a few moles in place, but counter-covert-operations will have been expected. Beowulf's internal security is probably both very serious and very competent. They might have missed some infiltrators without any potential connections to Manpower though.

Beowulf would have bene looking for Mesan spiss. Beowulf would also have been looking for any other spies for everything from military to business to general political and economical areas.
What they didn't have was anybody looking for Alignment spies and the Alignment is probably smart enough not to use Mesan nationals to do their spying. They would have used long term resident CITIZEN spies with Alpha and Beta lines to build truly deep covers and secure if very round-about methods of communications. It isn't like they have needed to react instantly to anything Beowulf comes up with in new medical tech or even shifts in economic of interstellar political policy.
Sensitive information and tech is still sensitive and you don't want it going missing or leaking out. The Alignment could even have mounted a number of campaigns using people from the other side of human space who went to Beowulf to study or train or even taken in as refugees. Remember the guy who was an undercover operator in Mesa, having been grown as an imitation seccie? Beowulf has been takeing in freed slaves for a long time and that would be one route for penetration. We saw another one on Torch, so we know at least somebody has been using them out beyond Mesa. Somewhat more complex cover for generational depth since you will have a serious variation between the classic mindset of former and children of former slaves and a deep cover, multi generational agent.

Cheopis wrote:At the same time, Beowulf has been running covert operations teams against Manpower for a very long time. It's likely there are a few moles in place, but counter-covert-operations will have been expected. Beowulf's internal security is probably both very serious and very competent. They might have missed some infiltrators without any potential connections to Manpower though.

You mean they might easily detect and stop a bunch of known manpower agents staging operations against family members of well connected members of the Beowulf government? I think we have pretty clear evidence that 'Not so much' is more the answer.