?

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:In the Selker Rift there is a rogue wave called the Selker Shear, as we all know. I've always visualized the Selker Shear to be like an unexpected very powerful Tsunami. The Streak Drive may be able to tame the Shear, well, ride the wave like a surfer hanging ten. And if that is possible for a Streak Drive, who knows what velocity a Streak Boat can attain riding the Shear. Groovy dude, like groovy man.

Too bad that your imagination did not remember that the streak drive is a hopped up hyper-generator and only has effect when changing hyper bands (or transitioning in or out of normal space). It has nothing to do with physical movement within a band (or normal space).

The maximum velocity is set by particle shielding, not the strength of the drive.

I do not think I am making myself clear. I understand the streak drive has nothing to do with movement once in a band. It simply allows a ship to access higher bands; in effect in layman's terms, enabling a ship to access more lanes across a very busy multi-lane freeway. In the case of rogue waves, the bands function as off-ramps. Exits. Exits are often utilized to escape danger on the freeway by avoiding your pursuer. All as an analogy.

In the Selker Shear, there is a rogue wave that suddenly comes on. Nobody knows "when the trouble they'll be in." So I assume a ship must run? They must try to avoid the Shear. Much like it is -- as the analogy I made in a previous post -- with a Tsunami.

Now, the danger when dealing with a Tsunami is in the wave energy that is inherent in the wave face. One does not want to be hit directly with the front face of the wave. So, a streak drive might allow a ship to temporarily rise above the Shear (the bowling ball) then drop back down and ride atop the ball, the crest if you will. Like a performer in a circus. If a ship drops down atop a rogue wave from a higher band, won't it be traveling faster? Perhaps a streak drive capable ship can match the speed of the train so it can jump on, if you will. Come on, you never jumped on a moving train as a kid?

Or, if a ship can be in the act of bouncing off the next highest band when the Shear hits, it might avoid the brunt of the wave. And my suggestion that the Warshawski Sail might be improved to divert a lot of the energies encountered when dropping atop a wave, as trimming the sails diverts a lot of energy from the wind pressure.

Of course, if Jonathan's notion that a streak capable ship might evade the danger by accessing the next highest band is true, then why attempt my maneuver? Well, for one, the streak drive might not be able to rise above the Selker Rift. (And I suppose that all ships evade the Shear by dropping back down to a lower band.) But if the streak drive will allow a warship to access a higher band and rise above the Shear, instead of sitting in the middle of the freeway like a disabled vehicle, then tactically it can avoid battle with faster GA ships while in the Rift. Saved by the Bell, the ship's warning bell (the Rift). GA ships have to run. Streak drive configured ships may be able to zag while GA ships have to zig.

A ship whose Warshawski Sails have been improved might be able to take advantage of a rogue wave by interacting with the wave at a different angle, by dropping down on the wave from above with a properly improved Sail.

No one has ever accessed a rogue wave, so nobody knows the particle count encountered there, or if whether by some freaky rogue-wave dynamics that the particles cannot be diverted by a slight alteration / improvement of the Sails that allow a tailored "trim."

If all of this research fields fruit, then even if riding a rogue wave doesn't allow faster travel, just being able to ride it might offer a tactical option when encountering GA ships while in the Selker Shear. And if by some freaky act of nature and sci-fi the particle density is freakishly low, then "Bob's your Uncle."

Late edit: If a streak-drive equipped ship is riding a rogue wave, it might be undetectable by enemy sensors.

penny wrote:In the Selker Shear, there is a rogue wave that suddenly comes on. Nobody knows "when the trouble they'll be in." So I assume a ship must run? They must try to avoid the Shear. Much like it is -- as the analogy I made in a previous post -- with a Tsunami.

Now, the danger when dealing with a Tsunami is in the wave energy that is inherent in the wave face. One does not want to be hit directly with the front face of the wave. So, a streak drive might allow a ship to temporarily rise above the Shear (the bowling ball) then drop back down and ride atop the ball, the crest if you will. Like a performer in a circus. If a ship drops down atop a rogue wave from a higher band, won't it be traveling faster? Perhaps a streak drive capable ship can match the speed of the train so it can jump on, if you will. Come on, you never jumped on a moving train as a kid?

Or, if a ship can be in the act of bouncing off the next highest band when the Shear hits, it might avoid the brunt of the wave. And my suggestion that the Warshawski Sail might be improved to divert a lot of the energies encountered when dropping atop a wave, as trimming the sails diverts a lot of energy from the wind pressure.

Of course, if Jonathan's notion that a streak capable ship might evade the danger by accessing the next highest band is true, then why attempt my maneuver? Well, for one, the streak drive might not be able to rise above the Selker Rift. (And I suppose that all ships evade the Shear by dropping back down to a lower band.) But if the streak drive will allow a warship to access a higher band and rise above the Shear, instead of sitting in the middle of the freeway like a disabled vehicle, then tactically it can avoid battle with faster GA ships while in the Rift. Saved by the Bell, the ship's warning bell (the Rift). GA ships have to run. Streak drive configured ships may be able to zag while GA ships have to zig.

A ship whose Warshawski Sails have been improved might be able to take advantage of a rogue wave by interacting with the wave at a different angle, by dropping down on the wave from above with a properly improved Sail.

No one has ever accessed a rogue wave, so nobody knows the particle count encountered there, or if whether by some freaky rogue-wave dynamics that the particles cannot be diverted by a slight alteration / improvement of the Sails that allow a tailored "trim."

If all of this research fields fruit, then even if riding a rogue wave doesn't allow faster travel, just being able to ride it might offer a tactical option when encountering GA ships while in the Selker Shear. And if by some freaky act of nature and sci-fi the particle density is freakishly low, then "Bob's your Uncle."

Late edit: If a streak-drive equipped ship is riding a rogue wave, it might be undetectable by enemy sensors.

Normally when a wedge drive ship encounters a gravity wave, it simply switches to sails and continues onward. Why then must a ship try to "dodge" the Selker Shear? I am guessing that, unlike a mapped gravity wave, with a rogue wave the correct arrangement of the sails is unknown (and unknowable) and an incorrect arrangement can also wreck a ship. If that is true, then it does not matter how a ship attempts to enter the Shear (including tricks with the hyper-generator); the attempt has a high probability of ending in failure.

If a trick with a hyper-generator were to make entry into the Selker Shear possible, then what has been gained? Its extent and direction are unknown, so it would not be useful for navigation. The trick does not really use the access to extra bands offered by the Streak drive, so wouldn't any hyper-generator be able to do this? Because of limited visibility in hyperspace, a ship in the Selker Shear might well be invisible to ships outside; but this is not a one way shield, the ships outside would be equally invisible to the ship inside.

tlb wrote:Normally when a wedge drive ship encounters a gravity wave, it simply switches to sails and continues onward. Why then must a ship try to "dodge" the Selker Shear? I am guessing that, unlike a mapped gravity wave, with a rogue wave the correct arrangement of the sails is unknown (and unknowable) and an incorrect arrangement can also wreck a ship. If that is true, then it does not matter how a ship attempts to enter the Shear (including tricks with the hyper-generator); the attempt has a high probability of ending in failure.

But isn't that why ships have the Warshawski sensors, to detect the grav waves and shears ahead of time? They are what made hyperspace travel safe, not the sails. The Warshawski sails allowed one to use the grav waves instead of going around them.

The problem the ships had after the Battle of the Selker Rift was that they had lost their ability to create the sails in the first place. I don't remember if they'd lost the ability to detect the waves, but it would be a moot point anyway.

penny wrote:I do not think I am making myself clear. I understand the streak drive has nothing to do with movement once in a band. It simply allows a ship to access higher bands; in effect in layman's terms, enabling a ship to access more lanes across a very busy multi-lane freeway. In the case of rogue waves, the bands function as off-ramps. Exits. Exits are often utilized to escape danger on the freeway by avoiding your pursuer. All as an analogy.

In the Selker Shear, there is a rogue wave that suddenly comes on. Nobody knows "when the trouble they'll be in." So I assume a ship must run? They must try to avoid the Shear. Much like it is -- as the analogy I made in a previous post -- with a Tsunami.

Now, the danger when dealing with a Tsunami is in the wave energy that is inherent in the wave face. One does not want to be hit directly with the front face of the wave. So, a streak drive might allow a ship to temporarily rise above the Shear (the bowling ball) then drop back down and ride atop the ball, the crest if you will. Like a performer in a circus. If a ship drops down atop a rogue wave from a higher band, won't it be traveling faster? Perhaps a streak drive capable ship can match the speed of the train so it can jump on, if you will. Come on, you never jumped on a moving train as a kid?

Or, if a ship can be in the act of bouncing off the next highest band when the Shear hits, it might avoid the brunt of the wave. And my suggestion that the Warshawski Sail might be improved to divert a lot of the energies encountered when dropping atop a wave, as trimming the sails diverts a lot of energy from the wind pressure.

Of course, if Jonathan's notion that a streak capable ship might evade the danger by accessing the next highest band is true, then why attempt my maneuver? Well, for one, the streak drive might not be able to rise above the Selker Rift. (And I suppose that all ships evade the Shear by dropping back down to a lower band.) But if the streak drive will allow a warship to access a higher band and rise above the Shear, instead of sitting in the middle of the freeway like a disabled vehicle, then tactically it can avoid battle with faster GA ships while in the Rift. Saved by the Bell, the ship's warning bell (the Rift). GA ships have to run. Streak drive configured ships may be able to zag while GA ships have to zig.

A ship whose Warshawski Sails have been improved might be able to take advantage of a rogue wave by interacting with the wave at a different angle, by dropping down on the wave from above with a properly improved Sail.

No one has ever accessed a rogue wave, so nobody knows the particle count encountered there, or if whether by some freaky rogue-wave dynamics that the particles cannot be diverted by a slight alteration / improvement of the Sails that allow a tailored "trim."

If all of this research fields fruit, then even if riding a rogue wave doesn't allow faster travel, just being able to ride it might offer a tactical option when encountering GA ships while in the Selker Shear. And if by some freaky act of nature and sci-fi the particle density is freakishly low, then "Bob's your Uncle."

Late edit: If a streak-drive equipped ship is riding a rogue wave, it might be undetectable by enemy sensors.

Your idea here was definitely not clear from your previous description of "For example, instead of bouncing off a wave, can ride the outside of a wave."

But I believe bouncing off the next hyper wall means you're still in the same hyperbands -- so that wouldn't allow you to get over or around a rogue wave within the same band.

If the rogue wave reaches up into the Iota bands then I'm sure that MAlign streak drive equipped ships will have to deal with it the same way that every other ship deals with rogue waves -- either takes an alternate route that avoids their area or stays slow enough that they can take evasive maneuvers if/when they spot it. (aka 'run away, run away!)
(and if it doesn't reach up into the Iota bands then they don't have to worry about it at all)

Honor Among Enemies wrote:Rogue waves were spurs or flares thrown off by locked waves; they weren't part of the web. They could appear and disappear without warning or shift position with incredible speed

That doesn't sound like the danger is just on the "face" of the wave. I'm doubtful that it would be safe to translate into the middle of a rogue wave - and even if it was the wave might move or flicker on you and slap you into its edge from the inside (ouch).


Also, you definitely are not moving faster when you drop from a higher hyper band. Crossing a hyper wall, in either direction, drains velocity form the ship in the Translation Bleed-Off (listed in the Speed By Hyper Band table). Crossing between Iota down to Theta (or Theta up to Iota) involves losing 48% of your velocity. And if you popped up just to drop back down you'd have just 27% of your original velocity remaining.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:Normally when a wedge drive ship encounters a gravity wave, it simply switches to sails and continues onward. Why then must a ship try to "dodge" the Selker Shear? I am guessing that, unlike a mapped gravity wave, with a rogue wave the correct arrangement of the sails is unknown (and unknowable) and an incorrect arrangement can also wreck a ship. If that is true, then it does not matter how a ship attempts to enter the Shear (including tricks with the hyper-generator); the attempt has a high probability of ending in failure.

But isn't that why ships have the Warshawski sensors, to detect the grav waves and shears ahead of time? They are what made hyperspace travel safe, not the sails. The Warshawski sails allowed one to use the grav waves instead of going around them.

The problem the ships had after the Battle of the Selker Rift was that they had lost their ability to create the sails in the first place. I don't remember if they'd lost the ability to detect the waves, but it would be a moot point anyway.

Yes the Warshaski sensors allow ships to detect waves.
But the range is limited. Ships in the Selker rift had to keep their velocity down, 0.16 C IIRC, so that they could evade the rogue wave once it was spotted.

If they were traveling too quickly then by the time they spotted the rogue wave they might not have sufficient time and delta-V to avoid it. (Guess they could crash transition down into normal space to avoid the wave -- but that'd be pretty much a last ditch desperation measure because they'd have no way to see when the rogue had moved on and it was safe to reenter hyper again)

tlb wrote:Normally when a wedge drive ship encounters a gravity wave, it simply switches to sails and continues onward. Why then must a ship try to "dodge" the Selker Shear? I am guessing that, unlike a mapped gravity wave, with a rogue wave the correct arrangement of the sails is unknown (and unknowable) and an incorrect arrangement can also wreck a ship. If that is true, then it does not matter how a ship attempts to enter the Shear (including tricks with the hyper-generator); the attempt has a high probability of ending in failure.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But isn't that why ships have the Warshawski sensors, to detect the grav waves and shears ahead of time? They are what made hyperspace travel safe, not the sails. The Warshawski sails allowed one to use the grav waves instead of going around them.

The problem the ships had after the Battle of the Selker Rift was that they had lost their ability to create the sails in the first place. I don't remember if they'd lost the ability to detect the waves, but it would be a moot point anyway.

Jonathan_S wrote:Yes the Warshaski sensors allow ships to detect waves.
But the range is limited. Ships in the Selker rift had to keep their velocity down, 0.16 C IIRC, so that they could evade the rogue wave once it was spotted.

If they were traveling too quickly then by the time they spotted the rogue wave they might not have sufficient time and delta-V to avoid it. (Guess they could crash transition down into normal space to avoid the wave -- but that'd be pretty much a last ditch desperation measure because they'd have no way to see when the rogue had moved on and it was safe to reenter hyper again)

Thank you for explaining that I was talking about the measures that had to be taken by ships WITH sails. You did remember the speed correctly, from Honor Among Enemies:

Chapter 28 wrote:But the Selker Rift couldn't be avoided, and so ships moving between the Empire and Confederacy crossed it under impeller drive at extremely low velocities—on the order of .16 c—in order to be sure they could dodge if the Selker Shear suddenly appeared on their detectors. It meant they took over five days just to cross the Rift, but it also meant they made it alive.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:I do not think I am making myself clear. I understand the streak drive has nothing to do with movement once in a band. It simply allows a ship to access higher bands; in effect in layman's terms, enabling a ship to access more lanes across a very busy multi-lane freeway. In the case of rogue waves, the bands function as off-ramps. Exits. Exits are often utilized to escape danger on the freeway by avoiding your pursuer. All as an analogy.

In the Selker Shear, there is a rogue wave that suddenly comes on. Nobody knows "when the trouble they'll be in." So I assume a ship must run? They must try to avoid the Shear. Much like it is -- as the analogy I made in a previous post -- with a Tsunami.

Now, the danger when dealing with a Tsunami is in the wave energy that is inherent in the wave face. One does not want to be hit directly with the front face of the wave. So, a streak drive might allow a ship to temporarily rise above the Shear (the bowling ball) then drop back down and ride atop the ball, the crest if you will. Like a performer in a circus. If a ship drops down atop a rogue wave from a higher band, won't it be traveling faster? Perhaps a streak drive capable ship can match the speed of the train so it can jump on, if you will. Come on, you never jumped on a moving train as a kid?

Or, if a ship can be in the act of bouncing off the next highest band when the Shear hits, it might avoid the brunt of the wave. And my suggestion that the Warshawski Sail might be improved to divert a lot of the energies encountered when dropping atop a wave, as trimming the sails diverts a lot of energy from the wind pressure.

Of course, if Jonathan's notion that a streak capable ship might evade the danger by accessing the next highest band is true, then why attempt my maneuver? Well, for one, the streak drive might not be able to rise above the Selker Rift. (And I suppose that all ships evade the Shear by dropping back down to a lower band.) But if the streak drive will allow a warship to access a higher band and rise above the Shear, instead of sitting in the middle of the freeway like a disabled vehicle, then tactically it can avoid battle with faster GA ships while in the Rift. Saved by the Bell, the ship's warning bell (the Rift). GA ships have to run. Streak drive configured ships may be able to zag while GA ships have to zig.

A ship whose Warshawski Sails have been improved might be able to take advantage of a rogue wave by interacting with the wave at a different angle, by dropping down on the wave from above with a properly improved Sail.

No one has ever accessed a rogue wave, so nobody knows the particle count encountered there, or if whether by some freaky rogue-wave dynamics that the particles cannot be diverted by a slight alteration / improvement of the Sails that allow a tailored "trim."

If all of this research fields fruit, then even if riding a rogue wave doesn't allow faster travel, just being able to ride it might offer a tactical option when encountering GA ships while in the Selker Shear. And if by some freaky act of nature and sci-fi the particle density is freakishly low, then "Bob's your Uncle."

Late edit: If a streak-drive equipped ship is riding a rogue wave, it might be undetectable by enemy sensors.

Your idea here was definitely not clear from your previous description of "For example, instead of bouncing off a wave, can ride the outside of a wave."

But I believe bouncing off the next hyper wall means you're still in the same hyperbands -- so that wouldn't allow you to get over or around a rogue wave within the same band.

True. But I was banking on the fact that gravity waves have their limit. They might be weaker near the edge of the band.

Jonathan_S wrote:If the rogue wave reaches up into the Iota bands then I'm sure that MAlign streak drive equipped ships will have to deal with it the same way that every other ship deals with rogue waves -- either takes an alternate route that avoids their area or stays slow enough that they can take evasive maneuvers if/when they spot it. (aka 'run away, run away!)
(and if it doesn't reach up into the Iota bands then they don't have to worry about it at all)

Of course, there's no way to know for certain without the author's input, but I'd bank on the Shear being limited to just one band and not crossing the wall. I think I am confident of my supposition that the hyper wall is a very intense band of gravity itself. Because of wave mechanics, if a rogue wave crosses over into the next higher band, it would also cross into the next lower band, on and on. Making a rogue wave a real "menace to society".

But I stress again, we must not become too complacent with the made in Manticore mantra. Why can't it be true that the MA has mapped the Shear? Weren't all gravity waves once waves that were unmapped at one point? And if they are mapped by the MA, why can't they be used for navigation? Perhaps even to heretofore unmapped regions of space.

Honor Among Enemies wrote:Rogue waves were spurs or flares thrown off by locked waves; they weren't part of the web. They could appear and disappear without warning or shift position with incredible speed

Jonathan_S wrote:That doesn't sound like the danger is just on the "face" of the wave. I'm doubtful that it would be safe to translate into the middle of a rogue wave - and even if it was the wave might move or flicker on you and slap you into its edge from the inside (ouch).

Jobathan_S wrote:Also, you definitely are not moving faster when you drop from a higher hyper band. Crossing a hyper wall, in either direction, drains velocity form the ship in the Translation Bleed-Off (listed in the Speed By Hyper Band table). Crossing between Iota down to Theta (or Theta up to Iota) involves losing 48% of your velocity. And if you popped up just to drop back down you'd have just 27% of your original velocity remaining.

I agree, for the most part, the danger is definitely the entire wave once the wave arrives and not just the face of the wave. But the danger can only destroy the ship once it hits. Which implies the front of the wave (wave front) is the initial or immediate danger.

This might seem as if I am simply arguing semantics. I don't think so. Consider that ships are trying to cross this dangerous region of hyperspace called the Selker Rift, being ever afraid and cautious of the Selker Shear. But that implies that they are traveling horizontally across the Rift to get to the next grav wave. The drunken wiki says the Rift is an area of hyperspace between the two prominent grav waves.

But a rogue grav wave must emanate from one direction. It seems counterintuitive that a ship would have to keep its velocity down if traveling "upstream" with or along the corridor of the Rift away from the oncoming Shear, rather than horizontally crossing the Rift. The rogue wave cannot possibly impact the ship from fore and aft of the ship. And if a ship happens to be traveling away from the approaching wave as fast as possible, it would afford more time to avoid it. Especially if a ship is travelling upstream with the Rift along one of the hyper walls.

At any rate and in summary, I am interested in the possibility that the MA has mapped the Shear, knows its frequency and uses it for navigation. Who knows where it would lead. I do not think any MA warship traveling within the Shear will be detectable. Even if vice versa, an LD will more importantly not want itself to be detected.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:If the rogue wave reaches up into the Iota bands then I'm sure that MAlign streak drive equipped ships will have to deal with it the same way that every other ship deals with rogue waves -- either takes an alternate route that avoids their area or stays slow enough that they can take evasive maneuvers if/when they spot it. (aka 'run away, run away!)
(and if it doesn't reach up into the Iota bands then they don't have to worry about it at all)

Of course, there's no way to know for certain without the author's input, but I'd bank on the Shear being limited to just one band and not crossing the wall. I think I am confident of my supposition that the hyper wall is a very intense band of gravity itself. Because of wave mechanics, if a rogue wave crosses over into the next higher band, it would also cross into the next lower band, on and on. Making a rogue wave a real "menace to society".

But I stress again, we must not become too complacent with the made in Manticore mantra. Why can't it be true that the MA has mapped the Shear? Weren't all gravity waves once waves that were unmapped at one point? And if they are mapped by the MA, why can't they be used for navigation? Perhaps even to heretofore unmapped regions of space.

I'm pretty sure that grav waves stretch across multiple bands of hyperspace.
But ok, we know absolultely that the Shear exists in the Delta bands -- as that's where Honor's little de facto convoy is creeping along keeping an eye out for it. Some simple math and logic strongly implies that the Shear must cover at least the Gamma bands (below Delta) -- otherwise merchants would cross the Rift quicker, and in perfect safety, down there.

a) Merchant ships (generally) can only climb as high as the Delta bands, but can access Alpha, Beta, and Gamma bands
b) Merchant ships (generally) have a hyperspace top speed of 0.5c
c) To allow ships to avoid the Shear they cross the Rift at only 0.16c
d) The speed by hyper band tables gives us each band's velocity multipliers (2178 for Delta, 1473 for Gamma)

Delta: 2178 * 0.16c = an effective times c of 348.48.
Gamma: 1473 * 0.5c = an effective times c of 736.6c

Ergo, since ships do cross the Rift in the Delta bands rather than the lower Gamma bands they must also be limiting their velocity in the lower bands; and the only reason they'd be doing that is because they also had to worry about the Shear appearing in that lower band.

penny wrote:

Honor Among Enemies wrote:Rogue waves were spurs or flares thrown off by locked waves; they weren't part of the web. They could appear and disappear without warning or shift position with incredible speed

Jonathan_S wrote:That doesn't sound like the danger is just on the "face" of the wave. I'm doubtful that it would be safe to translate into the middle of a rogue wave - and even if it was the wave might move or flicker on you and slap you into its edge from the inside (ouch).

[snip]

This might seem as if I am simply arguing semantics. I don't think so. Consider that ships are trying to cross this dangerous region of hyperspace called the Selker Rift, being ever afraid and cautious of the Selker Shear. But that implies that they are traveling horizontally across the Rift to get to the next grav wave. The drunken wiki says the Rift is an area of hyperspace between the two prominent grav waves.

But a rogue grav wave must emanate from one direction. It seems counterintuitive that a ship would have to keep its velocity down if traveling "upstream" with or along the corridor of the Rift away from the oncoming Shear, rather than horizontally crossing the Rift. The rogue wave cannot possibly impact the ship from fore and aft of the ship. And if a ship happens to be traveling away from the approaching wave as fast as possible, it would afford more time to avoid it. Especially if a ship is travelling upstream with the Rift along one of the hyper walls.

At any rate and in summary, I am interested in the possibility that the MA has mapped the Shear, knows its frequency and uses it for navigation. Who knows where it would lead. I do not think any MA warship traveling within the Shear will be detectable. Even if vice versa, an LD will more importantly not want itself to be detected.

It's possible that the MAlign has done that mapping, though I tend to doubt it.

To do so would require determining that this rogue wave was actually appearing and moving based on some previously undetermined predictable pattern. I'd think that do determine that would require vastly more data on it's behavior long term -- which would require routinely stationing enough ships in the Rift to catch its appearance and then track it until it disappeared again. So that's a lot of ships, and likely over a very long term (several years if not decades).

And even then it might turn out that the Rogue's behavior is mathematically chaotic, and thus even with near-perfect real-time data isn't predictable over useful timescales -- which would give zero return on all the investment you'd made in capturing the observations.

Frankly I just don't see Silesia as being important enough to the MAlign for them to divert the kinds of resources in ships and men that it would take to capture that long-term survey data. Sure, their patsy and fron Manpower, Inc. does good business in Silesia; and so that end has been happily feeding its politically instability -- but Manpower isn't a core strategic interest of the MAlign; nor is the ability to traverse the Rift faster a major strategic benefit even to Manpower.
I just don't see them putting in the time and effort given the pretty paltry payback even if they can predict the Shear's movements.

Rogue waves are described as a spur of offshoot of a grav wave, so seemingly must be connected to that wave. That should give a general direction it originates from. But that isn't the same thing as it always approaching your ship from that direction -- and thus it isn't necessarily safe to go faster when you're going away from that wave of origin.

The Rogue could flare off from any point along that wave in arc or angle, and then the entire spur move along the wave. If it arcs or angles out ahead of you (beyond your sensor range) and then the entire thing starts traveling horizontally towards you parts of the Rogue could end up ahead of your line of travel before you can spot it, despite you moving directly away form the wave it originated from. You'd then need to be going slowly enough to divert your vector to avoid it.

(And I don't see how riding near the hyper wall can constrain where the Rogue goes, because that's not a wall within the 3 dimensions the ship (and Rogue) can move within hyperspace. It's an extra-dimensional barrier between two different bands of hyperspace -- it has no impact, effect, or presence within the band of hyperspace the ship is operating in. So I'm not understanding that bit of your post.

Jonathan_S wrote:If the rogue wave reaches up into the Iota bands then I'm sure that MAlign streak drive equipped ships will have to deal with it the same way that every other ship deals with rogue waves -- either takes an alternate route that avoids their area or stays slow enough that they can take evasive maneuvers if/when they spot it. (aka 'run away, run away!)
(and if it doesn't reach up into the Iota bands then they don't have to worry about it at all)

penny wrote:Of course, there's no way to know for certain without the author's input, but I'd bank on the Shear being limited to just one band and not crossing the wall. I think I am confident of my supposition that the hyper wall is a very intense band of gravity itself. Because of wave mechanics, if a rogue wave crosses over into the next higher band, it would also cross into the next lower band, on and on. Making a rogue wave a real "menace to society".

But I stress again, we must not become too complacent with the made in Manticore mantra. Why can't it be true that the MA has mapped the Shear? Weren't all gravity waves once waves that were unmapped at one point? And if they are mapped by the MA, why can't they be used for navigation? Perhaps even to heretofore unmapped regions of space.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm pretty sure that grav waves stretch across multiple bands of hyperspace.
But ok, we know absolultely that the Shear exists in the Delta bands -- as that's where Honor's little de facto convoy is creeping along keeping an eye out for it. Some simple math and logic strongly implies that the Shear must cover at least the Gamma bands (below Delta) -- otherwise merchants would cross the Rift quicker, and in perfect safety, down there.

a) Merchant ships (generally) can only climb as high as the Delta bands, but can access Alpha, Beta, and Gamma bands
b) Merchant ships (generally) have a hyperspace top speed of 0.5c
c) To allow ships to avoid the Shear they cross the Rift at only 0.16c
d) The speed by hyper band tables gives us each band's velocity multipliers (2178 for Delta, 1473 for Gamma)

Delta: 2178 * 0.16c = an effective times c of 348.48.
Gamma: 1473 * 0.5c = an effective times c of 736.6c

Ergo, since ships do cross the Rift in the Delta bands rather than the lower Gamma bands they must also be limiting their velocity in the lower bands; and the only reason they'd be doing that is because they also had to worry about the Shear appearing in that lower band.

Honor Among Enemies wrote:Rogue waves were spurs or flares thrown off by locked waves; they weren't part of the web. They could appear and disappear without warning or shift position with incredible speed

Jonathan_S wrote:That doesn't sound like the danger is just on the "face" of the wave. I'm doubtful that it would be safe to translate into the middle of a rogue wave - and even if it was the wave might move or flicker on you and slap you into its edge from the inside (ouch).

[snip]

This might seem as if I am simply arguing semantics. I don't think so. Consider that ships are trying to cross this dangerous region of hyperspace called the Selker Rift, being ever afraid and cautious of the Selker Shear. But that implies that they are traveling horizontally across the Rift to get to the next grav wave. The drunken wiki says the Rift is an area of hyperspace between the two prominent grav waves.

But a rogue grav wave must emanate from one direction. It seems counterintuitive that a ship would have to keep its velocity down if traveling "upstream" with or along the corridor of the Rift away from the oncoming Shear, rather than horizontally crossing the Rift. The rogue wave cannot possibly impact the ship from fore and aft of the ship. And if a ship happens to be traveling away from the approaching wave as fast as possible, it would afford more time to avoid it. Especially if a ship is travelling upstream with the Rift along one of the hyper walls.

At any rate and in summary, I am interested in the possibility that the MA has mapped the Shear, knows its frequency and uses it for navigation. Who knows where it would lead. I do not think any MA warship traveling within the Shear will be detectable. Even if vice versa, an LD will more importantly not want itself to be detected.

[/quote]

Jobathan_S wrote:It's possible that the MAlign has done that mapping, though I tend to doubt it.

To do so would require determining that this rogue wave was actually appearing and moving based on some previously undetermined predictable pattern. I'd think that do determine that would require vastly more data on it's behavior long term -- which would require routinely stationing enough ships in the Rift to catch its appearance and then track it until it disappeared again. So that's a lot of ships, and likely over a very long term (several years if not decades).

And even then it might turn out that the Rogue's behavior is mathematically chaotic, and thus even with near-perfect real-time data isn't predictable over useful timescales -- which would give zero return on all the investment you'd made in capturing the observations.

Frankly I just don't see Silesia as being important enough to the MAlign for them to divert the kinds of resources in ships and men that it would take to capture that long-term survey data. Sure, their patsy and fron Manpower, Inc. does good business in Silesia; and so that end has been happily feeding its politically instability -- but Manpower isn't a core strategic interest of the MAlign; nor is the ability to traverse the Rift faster a major strategic benefit even to Manpower.
I just don't see them putting in the time and effort given the pretty paltry payback even if they can predict the Shear's movements.

Rogue waves are described as a spur of offshoot of a grav wave, so seemingly must be connected to that wave. That should give a general direction it originates from. But that isn't the same thing as it always approaching your ship from that direction -- and thus it isn't necessarily safe to go faster when you're going away from that wave of origin.

The Rogue could flare off from any point along that wave in arc or angle, and then the entire spur move along the wave. If it arcs or angles out ahead of you (beyond your sensor range) and then the entire thing starts traveling horizontally towards you parts of the Rogue could end up ahead of your line of travel before you can spot it, despite you moving directly away form the wave it originated from. You'd then need to be going slowly enough to divert your vector to avoid it.

(And I don't see how riding near the hyper wall can constrain where the Rogue goes, because that's not a wall within the 3 dimensions the ship (and Rogue) can move within hyperspace. It's an extra-dimensional barrier between two different bands of hyperspace -- it has no impact, effect, or presence within the band of hyperspace the ship is operating in. So I'm not understanding that bit of your post.

Thanks. The logic in your post makes sense, for the most part. However, why do we never hear about rogue waves being a problem in other bands?

At any rate, it isn't so much Silesia that could be important thus worth the effort, inasmuch as possibly being able to ride the rogue wave to regions of space where no Man-ticoran has gone before. If riding a rogue wave could take you to inaccessible regions of space, that is. In that case, a new hidey-hole for the MA would be completely inaccessible to anyone but the MA. As well as any bases producing LDs at phenomenal build rates.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:It's possible that the MAlign has done that mapping, though I tend to doubt it.

To do so would require determining that this rogue wave was actually appearing and moving based on some previously undetermined predictable pattern. I'd think that do determine that would require vastly more data on it's behavior long term -- which would require routinely stationing enough ships in the Rift to catch its appearance and then track it until it disappeared again. So that's a lot of ships, and likely over a very long term (several years if not decades).

And even then it might turn out that the Rogue's behavior is mathematically chaotic, and thus even with near-perfect real-time data isn't predictable over useful timescales -- which would give zero return on all the investment you'd made in capturing the observations.

Frankly I just don't see Silesia as being important enough to the MAlign for them to divert the kinds of resources in ships and men that it would take to capture that long-term survey data. Sure, their patsy and fron Manpower, Inc. does good business in Silesia; and so that end has been happily feeding its politically instability -- but Manpower isn't a core strategic interest of the MAlign; nor is the ability to traverse the Rift faster a major strategic benefit even to Manpower.
I just don't see them putting in the time and effort given the pretty paltry payback even if they can predict the Shear's movements.

Rogue waves are described as a spur of offshoot of a grav wave, so seemingly must be connected to that wave. That should give a general direction it originates from. But that isn't the same thing as it always approaching your ship from that direction -- and thus it isn't necessarily safe to go faster when you're going away from that wave of origin.

The Rogue could flare off from any point along that wave in arc or angle, and then the entire spur move along the wave. If it arcs or angles out ahead of you (beyond your sensor range) and then the entire thing starts traveling horizontally towards you parts of the Rogue could end up ahead of your line of travel before you can spot it, despite you moving directly away form the wave it originated from. You'd then need to be going slowly enough to divert your vector to avoid it.

(And I don't see how riding near the hyper wall can constrain where the Rogue goes, because that's not a wall within the 3 dimensions the ship (and Rogue) can move within hyperspace. It's an extra-dimensional barrier between two different bands of hyperspace -- it has no impact, effect, or presence within the band of hyperspace the ship is operating in. So I'm not understanding that bit of your post.

Thanks. The logic in your post makes sense, for the most part. However, why do we never hear about rogue waves being a problem in other bands?

At any rate, it isn't so much Silesia that could be important thus worth the effort, inasmuch as possibly being able to ride the rogue wave to regions of space where no Man-ticoran has gone before. If riding a rogue wave could take you to inaccessible regions of space, that is. In that case, a new hidey-hole for the MA would be completely inaccessible to anyone but the MA. As well as any bases producing LDs at phenomenal build rates.

Well we barely hear about rogue waves at all.
Likely because ships spend most of their time in hyper within locked Waves; where rogues can't exist. And, even when in a rift between waves, shipping routes try to stay well away from such dangers as rogues -- so they're rarely relevant to the plot; and thus gets very little mention in the text.

In fact I found just two references to Rogue Waves in the entire Honorverse!

The first, and by far the more expansive, is the oft discussed Selker Rift from Honor Among Enemies. The other is a passing mention in A Call to Duty to their mere exitance.

A Call to Duty wrote:First: we gather data. What I mean by that is that we not only make sure to analyze the downloads from each ship that visits our systems, but that we speak directly to the ships’ personnel about any problems they might have had and ask for their routine computer status dumps to track down and quantify those problems. If there are pirates poking around someone’s hyper limit, there may be clues buried in routine data that will help us nail down which systems have been targeted. Conversely, if we’re wrong and the disappearances are indeed accidents, that same data may help us pinpoint rogue grav waves or other anomalies that future ships can then avoid.

Nothing in there about applicable hyper bands (though that far back in the timeline, IIRC, even warships were restricted to the Beta bands).

And then back to the Selker Shear - where we get nearly all of our information about rogues. The text doesn't say anything about what band(s) it appears in -- just that it impacts "ships moving between the Empire and Confederacy". And then we see it impacting the behavior of the merchant ships moving in Honor's de facto convoy; which (except for Wayfarer herself, thanks to being refit, and the liner Atlas) are restricted to the Delta bands, or below, by their civilian hyper generators.

Though, since the text didn't say it only affected merchant ships moving between the Empire and Confederacy, I assume the Shear can appear at least as high as the Theta bands -- meaning it would also impact the movement of warships and anybody else with a military grade hyper generator. But I could be wrong and mention of that fact simply omitted as irrelevant to Honor's issues at the time.

So it isn't really that we don't hear about rogue waves in other hyper bands so much as it is that a rogue wave only happened to be relevant to the plot once; and that was while the ships involved happened to be in the Delta bands.



As for riding a Rogue to an inaccessible region of space -- how would that work?
A ship can't go any faster in a Rogue Wave than it can in a normal Wave, or anywhere else in hyperspace -- its top speed is limited by rad shielding -- so it's not going to be able to travel further (for a given time) by riding a Rogue Wave. And it's said they "could appear and disappear without warning or shift position with incredible speed" [HAE] -- riding it somewhere isn't much use if it up and disappears on you - or moves such that it no longer heads towards your destination. (Though the "incredible speed", at least in the case of the Shear logically must be well under 0.5c as merchant ships are able to run away from it; so if you can enter it then at least it's not going to be able to move out from under your ship)

And while nobody (that we know of) has been able to work out how to predict exactly when and where they'll appear; they do seem to appear onto within known bounds. So, if you're willing to take the time you can just skirt around those bounds -- though it's likely slower than cautiously picking your way past the rogue. So they can't really act as a barrier past which you can't access -- you ultimately have the option of just going around them.