Last use for SL SD captured

Jonathan_S wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:So technically, it could go either way, that yes all their birds blew up good with the other more modern missiles, or that the older capacitor birds were in some equivalent of hazmat bunkers but weren't considered powerful enough to arm 8th/10th fleets let alone Home Fleet.

After all, they do have smaller warheads, and a much smaller engagement range than the Mk 23's. Would you have offered up using the old capacitor birds if you were in the Alexander Admiralty as an analayst, I sure would not have... but I may have suggested it for Verge and Shell defenses if it came up.

Um, the capacitor powered MDMs (Mk41s) have the same acceleration profile and powered range as the Mk23 fusion powered MDMs. And I don't remember ever reading that the basic warhead on the Mk23s was enlarged... (Though I doubt the older missiles have been refitted with the improved grav lensing, like the upgrade that make the Mk16 into the Mk16G, so that would lower their effective firepower compared to the most recent Mk23s)

The advantages of the Mk23s were:
1) Reduced size (microfusion + fuel takes up less volume than the capacitors for even a 2-drive missile; much less a 3-drive one like the Mk41 or Mk23)
2) Improved energy budget for ECM; Dazzlers & Dragon's Teeth (though capacitor powered version of those missiles existed as far back as Ashes of Victory)

(Also, though not stated anywhere, I guess it's possible that the FTL transmitter on a Mk23E might take too much power to be run by capacitors in a reasonable sized missile - but in any case whether or not that's true wouldn't have been a driving reason for switching from Mk41s to Mk23s since Apollo was still buried somewhere deep in R&D at that point.)

I stand corrected then, I'd thought the original 3 drive capacitor MDM's had lower range and smaller warheads than the Mk 23's and that they were indeed smaller because I assumed that Mk 23's would have to be bigger to squeeze in even a microfusion core, and that if you're building them bigger to fit the power supply may as well slightly upsize the warhead too.

Mark 16's when upgrading to the mod G, almost tripled their warhead size, and received upgraded seekers and penaids all without changing missile sizes, although they didn't change their power source.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:And more to the point, how many of those nations will show interest in fighting the League?

All of them?

If a system is willing to secede from the SL after the attack on Beowulf killed ten million (rumored) then I doubt that they expect to leave peacefully without fighting the SLN.

So you expect systems to join the fight against the League? They already know that the GA is fighting for its very life and as such they know the GA has no option but to continue the fight. To me this means there would be 3 options for those leaving. (1)Leave the league and join the GA, (2) Leave the league, sign a defence treaty with the GA, (3)Leave the league and try to distance themselves as much as possible from the GA so as to leave themselves a way back into the league if the League should win.

Many nations will take option 2. Some will take option 3. But I foresee only a select few taking option 1.

Option 1: Forces them into open conflict with the League and no matter how bad it appears there is always a chance the League will win in the end. This will shut a door for reconciliation with the League and might get the offending system protectorate treatment.

Option 2: No active military participation against the League but a treaty that allows the GA to step in and protect the nation in question. This would be the best option because they get the protection while limiting the potential exposure to reprisals should the League win.

Option 3: Is for those that are member of the RF or are capable of looking after themselves because they have a strong SDF or they have a lot of their citizens in the SLN thus when they leave they get a number of ships and their crews from a weakened SLN.


If few systems in the League have SDF's what potential advantage are they to the GA if the GA has to deploy manpower to essentially build militaries from scratch?

Duckk wrote:And as was pointed out in that very meeting, those were worst case estimates, by people who were blindsided by Theisman building an entire navy in secret, and whose intelligence assets aren't anything close to what they were before.

Secondly, the quote from Theisman is from before Beatrice. That is 620 SD(P)s before the First Battle of Manticore. The simply do not have, nor ever did have, 1200 SD(P)s, period.

Uhm, if I am reading it correctly, the president is asking what they are left with once they send out the ~350 of the wall and of that number ~4.5% are CLAC's and ~95.5% are SD(P)'s. So by my math at the time of the conversation in question there were 620 SD(P)'s that were not tapped for Beatrice and 336 SD(P)'s that were tapped for Beatrice. For a grand total of 956 SD(P)'s. If Haven can build 318 SD(P)'s from scratch in roughly 4 years and that accounts for design and research etc... in only one base what do you think Bolthole will be building from 1919-1922? Another 300 SD(P)'s? And when they lay down ships in the other yards of the republic, even conservative figures would double the number unless we assume that Bolthole represents a huge % of the Republics shipbuilding capabilities.

Potato wrote:Let us do the math.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/106/1

This fleet chart is for early 1920 PD. The RHN has 318 SD(P)s to start At All Costs. This is from an unquestionable, unimpeachable source: David Weber.

A year and a half later, prior to Operation Beatrice, they have 620 SD(P)s. This comes from an unquestionable, unimpeachable source: Thomas Theisman, who damn well should know exactly how many SD(P)s he has.

This is their peak strength. From 620, they lose almost all of the ~336 they commit to Operation Beatrice. 251 were flat out destroyed, 68 were captured, and <= 17 from Fifth Fleet may have escaped, but that is it. That leaves a total of approximately 284 SD(P)s available to the RHN as AAC ends.

So at no point does the RHN have anything close to 1200 podnoughts.

That would be 620 SD(P)'s AFTER they deploy 336 SD(P)'s for Beatrice. And I stated that they may have 1,200 SD(P)'s in commission, on workup and under construction as in a combination of the 3 rather than them having 1,200 in active service at the same time.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:If a system is willing to secede from the SL after the attack on Beowulf killed ten million (rumored) then I doubt that they expect to leave peacefully without fighting the SLN.

So you expect systems to join the fight against the League? They already know that the GA is fighting for its very life and as such they know the GA has no option but to continue the fight.

What part of "if a system is willing to secede" are you having trouble with? If a system is not willing to fight the SLN then they won't be willing to secede -- at least not without a lot of encouragement and bribery in the form of military assistance.

Sigs wrote:To me this means there would be 3 options for those leaving. (1)Leave the league and join the GA, (2) Leave the league, sign a defence treaty with the GA, (3)Leave the league and try to distance themselves as much as possible from the GA so as to leave themselves a way back into the league if the League should win.

There are a couple of other options available:

Join the RF.

Your option 1 or 2 except with the Andermani, Maya, or some other mutual defense organization or Alliance.

Sigs wrote:Many nations will take option 2. Some will take option 3. But I foresee only a select few taking option 1.

I doubt many will even be offered "Option 1" The GA doesn't need them and Option 2 would be cheaper in "blood and gold."

Sigs wrote:Option 1: Forces them into open conflict ...

Seceding from the League forces them into open conflict with the League. Period. Full Stop. That is true for ANY option either of us has listed for successor states.

If a system secedes from the league, it is very doubtful that system would be allowed to rejoin any remnant of the league. The reduced League would, quite rightfully, believe the system is not trustworthy or reliable.

Sigs wrote:If few systems in the League have SDF's what potential advantage are they to the GA if the GA has to deploy manpower to essentially build militaries from scratch?

A source of money. They might be provided a basic defense installation at cost, but most will be buying more than the basic installation from somebody -- it might as well be the GA. Their responsibility under a mutual defense treaty could just be to fund and provide bases for a GA task force.

Only a very select few will be provided defense installations are going to be delivered below cost or free.

Only a very select few are going to be sold offensive systems like ships or ship-borne pods. (Mk25 4stage SDMs are too big for shipboard use, so that pod technology would have to be adapted or huge ships built to accommodate them.)

The GA is NOT going to sign defense treaties with every successor state, and they are NOT going to be giving the same defense package to every system they do sign treaties with.

If the SL is still a going entity and at war with the GA anyone seceding needs to expect someone to drop by and remind them that this wasn't a good idea. And if you have the typical defense of 90% of the SL, a BC squadron could take care of you entire industrial base, orbital mining capability and every spacecraft you have is about 2 days if they are trying to avoid lots of casualties.

about 50% could be crushed by a DD squadron.

About 25% could by conquered by a pirate in an obsolete PoS warship, because about 25% pretty much have nothing that can face even that.

So if your plan is to get the SL members to quit it's up to you to make it highly attractive to do this. And "Yeah, quit the SL, it will be good for you. Best of luck with the SLN and the pirates." probably isn't the ideal message you should be conveying.

Now exactly what can be done given the scale of the problem is unclear, but I suspect some sort of appealing offer needs to be made if they want success.

Weird Harold wrote:
What part of "if a system is willing to secede" are you having trouble with? If a system is not willing to fight the SLN then they won't be willing to secede -- at least not without a lot of encouragement and bribery in the form of military assistance.

Sigs wrote:To me this means there would be 3 options for those leaving. (1)Leave the league and join the GA, (2) Leave the league, sign a defence treaty with the GA, (3)Leave the league and try to distance themselves as much as possible from the GA so as to leave themselves a way back into the league if the League should win.

There are a couple of other options available:

Join the RF.

Your option 1 or 2 except with the Andermani, Maya, or some other mutual defense organization or Alliance.

Sigs wrote:Many nations will take option 2. Some will take option 3. But I foresee only a select few taking option 1.

I doubt many will even be offered "Option 1" The GA doesn't need them and Option 2 would be cheaper in "blood and gold."

Sigs wrote:Option 1: Forces them into open conflict ...

Seceding from the League forces them into open conflict with the League. Period. Full Stop. That is true for ANY option either of us has listed for successor states.

If a system secedes from the league, it is very doubtful that system would be allowed to rejoin any remnant of the league. The reduced League would, quite rightfully, believe the system is not trustworthy or reliable.

Sigs wrote:If few systems in the League have SDF's what potential advantage are they to the GA if the GA has to deploy manpower to essentially build militaries from scratch?

A source of money. They might be provided a basic defense installation at cost, but most will be buying more than the basic installation from somebody -- it might as well be the GA. Their responsibility under a mutual defense treaty could just be to fund and provide bases for a GA task force.

Only a very select few will be provided defense installations are going to be delivered below cost or free.

Only a very select few are going to be sold offensive systems like ships or ship-borne pods. (Mk25 4stage SDMs are too big for shipboard use, so that pod technology would have to be adapted or huge ships built to accommodate them.)

The GA is NOT going to sign defense treaties with every successor state, and they are NOT going to be giving the same defense package to every system they do sign treaties with.

1. No one outside of the MA knows of the existence of the RF.

2. Seceding from the League would not necessarily mean war with the League. It would be beneficial for the GA to sign a defence treaty and picket the system than to donate 40 years of research and their main advantage to both the League and the MA.

3. The main source of money the new systems will be providing will be from restored trade.

4. I personally do not see how Manticore specifically or the GA in general will benefit if their technological advantage evaporated and ended up in the hands of the League, it's successor states, the MA, the RF or a combination of all of them.

5. The main goal for the GA is to force systems to secede from the League through political, diplomatic, economic or military pressure so that they can 1. stop contributing to the League's government/economy/military and 2. contribute to the GA's economy.

6. Instead of the RF/MA/SLN/Successor states requiring 5,10 or 15 years to catch-up to the GA's technological advantage they may very well end up catching up in a year or two. So not only is there an industrial and population disadvantage for the GA but you want to add technological parity?

kzt wrote:If the SL is still a going entity and at war with the GA anyone seceding needs to expect someone to drop by and remind them that this wasn't a good idea. And if you have the typical defense of 90% of the SL, a BC squadron could take care of you entire industrial base, orbital mining capability and every spacecraft you have is about 2 days if they are trying to avoid lots of casualties.

about 50% could be crushed by a DD squadron.

About 25% could by conquered by a pirate in an obsolete PoS warship, because about 25% pretty much have nothing that can face even that.

So if your plan is to get the SL members to quit it's up to you to make it highly attractive to do this. And "Yeah, quit the SL, it will be good for you. Best of luck with the SLN and the pirates." probably isn't the ideal message you should be conveying.

Now exactly what can be done given the scale of the problem is unclear, but I suspect some sort of appealing offer needs to be made if they want success.

MDM Pods and LAC's under the control of GA crews with the more important systems getting some hyper capable units. There is a big difference between the GA deploying 1,000 or 10,000 MDM pods and LAC's under the control of GA personnel compared to giving 1,000 or 10,000 MDM pods and LAC's to a newly independent nation.

One keeps your technology safe and protects a trading partner, the other does neither, you lose control of your technology and at the same time you hand over advanced weapons to systems that may have a couple of thousand spacers and nothing heavier than a LAC with unknown loyalty.

Sigs wrote:1. No one outside of the MA knows of the existence of the RF.

That doesn't stop the MAlign from trying to fragment the league. In this respect, the GA and MAlign are mostly working to the same goal, dissolution of the Solarian League. Whether anyone knows about the MAlign and RF is pretty much irrelevant; although the MAlign would prefer it stays that way.

Sigs wrote:2. Seceding from the League would not necessarily mean war with the League.

Do you understand what secede means? Especially secession from an organization that has demonstrated a willingness to use force to prevent secession?

For comparison, how many states seceded from the US in the 1860 without going to war against the Union?

How many states successfully seceded from the USSR before Glasnost and the dissolution of the USSR?

Secession is effectively a declaration of war as far as the Mandarins are concerned.

Sigs wrote:One keeps your technology safe and protects a trading partner, the other does neither, you lose control of your technology and at the same time you hand over advanced weapons to systems that may have a couple of thousand spacers and nothing heavier than a LAC with unknown loyalty.

There are something like 1500 full members and a thousand plus "sit there and shut up" 'members'. Assume you provide a a dozen squadrons to each that would be something like 3000 crew and maintenance personnel per system. Missile pods need maint, support and control (plus a security force to keep someone from swiping a missile pod or pulling off a commando raid on your facilities), so I'll guess another 1000 or so by the time they are all there.

So say 10 million people and 250,000 LACS.

Which is something more than 100% of the RMN in terms of people and and probably more LACS than exist combined between Manticore and Haven. This is ignoring all the logistic ships that would be needed and the mobile forces you need to keep someone from doing bad things where it's not convenient or reasonable to deal with them with LACS or MDMs, or the 2-3x staff you need to rotate people who are scattered penny packets across the entirety of Human space.

That's what I mean by the issue of scale. You can do this for one or two or ten. But you can't do this for anything like the entire SL or even 10% of the SL without bankrupting Manticore or turning the entire RMN into SL garrisons.