Build a Fleet!

Yes, Harold, you waved your magic wand, as you completely changed the entire scenario of this entire thread.

From the OP in short

Erls wrote:Basically - there is no specific threat (PRH, SL, AE, etc..) in mind. Only a strong collection of systems in an otherwise completely disorganized galaxy composed of other large nations that may or may not be friendly, pirates, raiders, and other bad actors. How would you compose your fleet to undertake all of the tasks that come with such a position?

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:So basically hundreds of nations that will expect Manticore or the GA to foot the bill for their defense? How do you convince the Tax Payers of the GA to swallow that? How long does this arrangement last?

IIRC, Marsh provides a significant, and growing, portion of Sidemore Station's ships. That's not exactly "Manticore footing the bill."

Manticore and/or the GA can't foot the bill for a Mutual Defense Force unilaterally, but it can provide some of its existing SD complement or other ships and provide slots at Saganami for allied officers. They might even make a profit on the officer training.

We haven't seen Sidemore since the end of War of Honor. Further investment into it likely ended after the Yawata Strike, if not when Silesia was annexed and the RMN moved into former Silesian Navy bases. I would be surprised if there were any modern RMN wallers left in the area.

IMO, most sector defense navies are going to have to build some waller. They don't need an invincible fleet, just enough to present a fleet in being. If the Harrington Strategy works, there'll be between 50 and 100 new interstellar governments, with an equivalent number of new navies(formed out of joined-up system defense forces). With sufficient defensive alliances in place, an attacker has to worry not just about his target's navy, but their allies as well.

Even the "poorer" sectors within the Shell are going to end up with at least two or three battle squadrons. The more developed areas of the League could field three or four times that many, but cannot deploy fully due to defensive commitments of their own and other threats they have to honour, given how densely packed they will be.

Weird Harold wrote:What gave you the idea that I think no other nations exist? You're ignoring the strategic assessment part of building a fleet: I determined as step one that the only potential threat was the RF and they were 20-30 years away, on the far side of the former League. There are no aggressive and/or expansionist empires in this sector.

And what about neighboring sectors? If your entire sector is basically a cakewalk what happens when someone decides to expand his empire from a neighboring sector.

Your strategic seems more like a wish list than a strategic anything:
-No aggressive empires in your sector
-Someone else provides the big boys for your defense even though they have no little to no benefit for doing so.
-You have magical intelligence agencies that are right 100% of the time, and can see any plot by anyone at any time with enough time in order to warn you to strengthen your military.
-And best of all is that each and every system you own is on its own except for a handful of BC’s/BB’s and DD’s that can move and slightly strengthen the defence of the system they reinforce.

Weird Harold wrote:Irrelevant. There are no aggressive or expansionist systems in the sector and the only SDs belong to the MDF. There are at least 12 successor states that commissioned SDs before the League Collapsed; a large percentage of those 12, if not all, belong to the RF -- an the far side of the former League territory.

So you are assuming that no one else build a navy of any significant size with the collapse in the League? When the League and the SLN collapses most industrialized systems with the ability would build their own fleet without waiting for their white knight to rescue them.

The big assumptions you are making are (1)you can get everyone in your sector to agree to cooperate on anything let alone a Combined Nodal Fleet and (2)That you can convince Manticore/Haven/GA to spend treasure and lives to protect someone out of the goodness of their hearts.

As for the industrial level of your systems, it is quite relevant. IF you have a very industrialized nation you will be a target to any tinpot dictator who wants an empire, they can be the best friend you ever had to your face and they build up to conquer you behind your back.

Weird Harold wrote:"Time and resources" are the reason I don't propose any SDs. The initial Strategic Assessment was that there was nothing for them to do. Expending time and resources on building, crewing, and maintaining them is more than my taxpayers are willing to put up with.

So if the nation providing the SD’s has a change in government and/or change in heart and withdraws what happens then? What happens if your ONI discovers that one of your neighbors is up to no good and has secretly been building a wall of Battle? Or someone out side your immediate neighbors decides you are a juicy target and starts advancing?

Why would any major military power like Manticore keep SD’s to defend you? Why would the citizens of a democracy willingly spend trillions upon trillions of dollars on the defense of someone else when they are not willing to defend themselves?

Weird Harold wrote:
Expending time and resources on building, crewing, and maintaining them is more than my taxpayers are willing to put up with.

So you are expecting Manticore or Haven to Expend time and resources to build, crew and maintain SD’s for your defense and you expect their taxpayers to be willing to put up with it while your OWN citizens will not be willing to expend money, resources etc on YOUR OWN defense?


Explain how you will convince Manticore to to build and maintain thousands of SD’s for your defense? How do you get the tax payers of Manticore to foot the bill for everyone? Or is your strategic assumption just a fantasy?

Weird Harold wrote: Exactly what would have helped Manticore and Grayson detect and thwart Oyster Bay? Even if they knew it was coming they didn't have the technology to prevent it.

They wouldn't have been likely to prevent Oyster Bay but if there was an invasion as an act two they would have the fleet to defend themselves whereas you wont have anything but a lot of wreckage in your system(s). If someone surprises you with some plot to conquer you, it might be better to have a fleet thats able to fight as opposed to having to start from scratch the second you discover... Manticore and Beowulf can react immediately, you on the other hand will need to start building up, training, designing, arming etc... from nothing.

Weird Harold wrote: As long as your defenses are known, an enemy can find a way to nullify them. Each of the 20 member systems has two BCL(p) tasked as a Quick Reaction Force asset. That's 40 podlayers with Apollo/Mk23E equivalent pods. A significant reinforcement.

Assuming that you get a chance to concentrate your forces and that would leave you without any mobile forces anywhere else, you would have one system with 40 BC(P)’s and the other 19 with nothing but LAC’s and fixed defenses... Someone goes to your 19 systems without mobile defenses with a squadron or 2 of SD(P)’s one at a time and you will be chasing your tail and gambling as to where to deploy your mediocre mobile assets... And if you meet one or two SD(P) squadrons in battle your mobile fleet of 40 BC(P)’s is so much wreckage with your nation now open for conquest without any one system being able to reinforce any other.

Weird Harold wrote: The primarily moon/asteroid based system defense missile system capable of firing and controlling up to 1,000 four-stage multi-drive/multi-stage missiles with FTL receivers for Fire-control. It's a variation on Apollo/Mycroft/System Defense Pods, The system can be deployed aboard a habitat or fort was well as moon/asteroid basing, although at greater expense and vulnerability.

Well then my 1,000 Monitor’s(each 5X the size and firepower of an SD(P))will move in supported by my fleet of 250,000,000 invisible super-duper LAC armed with Death Star super rays will destroy anything you can field...


Basically your idea is to field a stationary defensive piece of equipment that can be destroyed from a couple of light days out with missiles and one that will not be able to reinforce or strengthen any other systems defenses?

Weird Harold wrote: Time and resources. Individually, a Spider-LAC is no match for anything bigger than a frigate or pre-havenite-war destroyer. A full wing of Spider-LACs might reasonably take on a BCL. A system's worth of Spider-LACs backed by Huacha superpods can handle any force known to exist in my sector. That probably includes the Nodal MDF force, but when the Hyper-capable assets for the system are considered, it definitely includes the probable division of SD(p) in the Nodal MDF.

Sure they can, what happens when someone comes in with a few hundred or a few thousand Katana’s?

A surprise attack destroy’s your “stationary” defenses and their command and control, which means you lose your main defensive capabilities. Then the enemy comes in with a squadron or two with SD(P)’s supported by a squadron or two of CLAC’s full of Katana’s supported by BC(P)’s, HC’s,CL’s and DD’s... your super duper LAC’s backed up by 2 BC(P)’s and a dozen DD’s will be cut up without much problems.

Weird Harold wrote:Even a squadron of over-sized Spider Drive LAC that can launch Mk16G equivalents is cheaper than a BCL or BCL(p). A flotilla of Spider-LACs is more useful in peacetime and, in sufficient numbers, is less vulnerable than a couple pairs of BCLs.

Where exactly do you get all these new technologies? Because if you have them then so does everyone else unless you are the one nations that invests tremendous amounts in R&D. For every weapon you have someone else will come up with a counter, you might be thinking up all of these super weapons but by the same token I can think of super weapons to counteract your super weapons and on and on...

Weird Harold wrote:You are the one who made the comment about "others" -- If they think like me, they don't have any SDs so I don't need to defend against them. If they think like me, they won't attack me with whatever they have, and I don't need to build an invincible Navy.

If others think like you can depend on the goodwill of someone else for the defense of your nation then when the big bad wolf comes around and starts making trouble everyone who has the same Idea as you will be looking for ships of the wall... those that are intelligent will be prepared with a proper fleet.

Weird Harold wrote:It would be unrealistic to expect more than competence from my Intelligence agencies. Bolthole was essentially irrelevant because even Janacek's ONI knew that Haven was hostile. High Ridge ignored that minor detail, and gutted Manticore's intelligence agencies and military. Had that not happened, Bolthole would have been no more than an interesting side-note.

You do realize in the books it clearly states that Bolthole was set up well before Janacek and Highridge? Which means that the intelligence agencies of Manticore were failing for decades not realizing that Haven was building up a major ship yard in secret. If it took Haven a decade or two to build and man Bolthole that means that Manticore has been failing for decades.


If Manticore’s intelligence had not been gutted they would have been just as shocked and would likely have failed just as easily because it seems to me that after the People’s Republic failed most of the HUMINT disappeared because of renewed loyalty to the new government.

Weird Harold wrote:There was plenty of information available to intelligence agencies that were still competent, and those who listened to them averted total disaster.

How many agencies had more than just scraps of what was brewing in Bolthole? Grayson seemed to have a competent agency and they seemed to have a lot of guesstimates but nothing too solid.

Weird Harold wrote: I can't afford to build a fleet to counter threats that only exist as remote possibilities. I can't afford to waste time and resources building a bigger fleet than I need and can convince my taxpayer to foot the bill for.

But you can convince Manticore to build and maintain a massive fleet in order to protect you? If you cannot convince your own citizens for the need to defend your nation what makes you think you can convince me to defend you?


Basically your entire scenario is meaningless because it hinges on a nodal force funded, manned and equipped by a nation that has no interests in your area of space other than some trade.

What is the Fleet's sets of mission parameters? There is more than one mission.

Even in the near term, the GA is going to need more modern DD, CA, BC and CLAC (and a lot more LACs) to meet anticipated needs. Anti-piracy, anti-commerce raiders, local system defense and patrol depth (lots and lots of LACs), convoy escort, general crusing and showing the flag. Not things you are going to be detaching one or more SD (or even old Dreadnaughts if you have any left) to do. You need speed, engagement range, endurance and the ability to deploy a lot of ships to a lot of places even if it is just one ship each.

Modern ships in those classes should be able to handle at least one or two ships of equal class if they don't have multi-drive missels. Certainly they can be swamped by multi-ship patrols, especially if you put a mixed group of CA and BC (which would give BF/FF the combat power to do commece raiding against GA shipping or "newly independent" systems. Even if you have only one RMN (or RHN) ship facing two or more FF ships or "pirates", the GA ship could engage to kill and/or cripple one or more of the attackers before having to withdraw.

Building ships is going to cost money, even after you rebuild enough infrastructure to build more ships. The smaller ships should take less time to build than anything in the scale of a Waller, they will cost (relativly ) less and require smaller crews.

Manticore is going to have to work at rebuilding the income stream of both the Junction and its merchant fleet. That same merchant fleet is going to need a more proactive use of escorts to keep SL (and other) commerce raiders off of them to keep the trade flowing and the ship looses way down.

Sigs wrote:Who provides the SD's?

Whoever has them. "Modern" SDs are in four Navies; RMN, RHN, IAN, and GSN. Semi-modern are in Erewhon's Navy and soon to be in Maya's.

Sigs wrote:Because forcing Manticore or the GA to field thousands of SD's in peacetime ...

It wouldn't take "thousands" of SDs. A four-ship division for each nodal force covering and average of 100 Planets would be less than 500 committed to covering the former SL -- adding a hundred for maintenance rotations.

Sigs wrote:...for the sake of someone else's defence is a no go unless there is a direct national interest for them to defend that nation.

Manticore's wealth is based on its Merchant Marine. Suppressing Piracy and aggressive star nations IS in their national interest. Manticore could provide four-ship divisions to a Nodal MDF alone, out of war-surplus SD(p)s. Haven and Grayson will have additional war-surplus SD(p)s they can contribute or sell to contributors.

Erewhon has entered the arms market and will soon be building SD(p)s for Maya and themselves. They will have excess capacity once They and Maya are equipped and can build modern SDs for anyone with money to launder.

Sigs wrote:If all of the Ships of the wall are provided that means that Manticore/GA/Haven is footing the bill even if local nations are throwing in some screen.

Every Navy that has "modern" SDs will have the choice of employing or selling their war-surplus SDs. I have no idea who will own the SDs of any given Nodal MDF task force -- or who built them. Nor do I know which Nodal Task Force will need more than a four-ship of SDs or only a pair.

All I can say with certainty is that there are enough "modern" SD(p) in the Haven Quadrant in 1922PD to supply the core of a respectable Mutual Defense Force; with more being planned and built.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:Who provides the SD's?

Whoever has them. "Modern" SDs are in four Navies; RMN, RHN, IAN, and GSN. Semi-modern are in Erewhon's Navy and soon to be in Maya's.

Why? What do they get out of it? How would you convince their citizens to join the military to fight and protect people not willing to protect themselves? How do you convince the taxpayer in each nation to pay for the protection of systems who cannot be bothered to fund their own military properly?

Weird Harold wrote:It wouldn't take "thousands" of SDs. A four-ship division for each nodal force covering and average of 100 Planets would be less than 500 committed to covering the former SL -- adding a hundred for maintenance rotations.

And 4 SD’s would do exactly what to deter me and my 2 or 3 squadrons of SD’s? What happens when someone destroys one of those nodal forces and the people of Manticore start asking why they are sending their sons, daughters, mothers, father etc... to die for nations not willing to fight? Why would Manticore put 4 SD’s in a nodal force when your 20 systems can field a hundred SD’s with ease, not accounting what the other 80 systems can or cannot do.

Weird Harold wrote:Manticore's wealth is based on its Merchant Marine. Suppressing Piracy and aggressive star nations IS in their national interest. Manticore could provide four-ship divisions to a Nodal MDF alone, out of war-surplus SD(p)s. Haven and Grayson will have additional war-surplus SD(p)s they can contribute or sell to contributors.

They can provide the SD’s, great, who provides the money to maintain them? Who provides the trained crew? Who provides the officers? Who provides the ammunition?

Besides, SD’s do not suppress piracy, they wont need to provide SD’s to a Nodal Force in order to trade with you, after all basically your entire fleet is for anti-piracy.

Weird Harold wrote:Erewhon has entered the arms market and will soon be building SD(p)s for Maya and themselves. They will have excess capacity once They and Maya are equipped and can build modern SDs for anyone with money to launder.

Who provides the money to maintain them? Who provides the trained crew? Who provides the officers? Who provides the ammunition? Who provides the ship yards for maintenance and overhaul? What about consumables? Salaries for the crew?

Weird Harold wrote:Every Navy that has "modern" SDs will have the choice of employing or selling their war-surplus SDs. I have no idea who will own the SDs of any given Nodal MDF task force -- or who built them. Nor do I know which Nodal Task Force will need more than a four-ship of SDs or only a pair.

Ok, what does the Nodal force consist of? Who is funding it, who does it answer to? Who provides the crew? What about ammo? If one nation takes control of all the SD’s for the Nodal force, what is to stop it from walking away and having the only SD’s in the sector?

Weird Harold wrote:All I can say with certainty is that there are enough "modern" SD(p) in the Haven Quadrant in 1922PD to supply the core of a respectable Mutual Defense Force; with more being planned and built.

Say Haven, Manticore and Greyson donate the ships what then? Do they go to one nation in each sector and they belong to that nation? Are they crewed by all the nations of that sector? Are they funded by all the nations or only one? Who pays the salaries? etc...

Sigs wrote:And 4 SD’s would do exactly what to deter me and my 2 or 3 squadrons of SD’s?

First, if you have 2 or three squadrons of SDs, the MDF force in your sector would have more than four SDs to oppose any aggression on your part.

Second, by attacking a Nodal Force, you've declared war on the entire MDF and its member nations. Do you really expect to stand up to the entire Mutual Defense Organization all by yourself?

Sigs wrote:They can provide the SD’s, great, who provides the money to maintain them? Who provides the trained crew? Who provides the officers? Who provides the ammunition?

Whoever owns them. Duh! The same for every other ship assigned to a Nodal MDF.

Sigs wrote:Besides, SD’s do not suppress piracy, they wont need to provide SD’s to a Nodal Force in order to trade with you, after all basically your entire fleet is for anti-piracy.

SDs do provide command and control facilities for anti-piracy oriented task forces -- forex Honor's command at Marsh/Sidemore station.

However, that wouldn't be their purpose in a Mutual Defense Force; their purpose would be "mutual defense" against systems like your hypothetical aggressive 2-3 squadrons of SDs. Some Nodal forces in quiet sector might not have any SDs, and others might absorb the SDs from quiet sectors to deter would-be conquistadors.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:[Erewhon] will have excess capacity once They and Maya are equipped and can build modern SDs for anyone with money to launder.

Who provides the money to maintain them? Who provides the trained crew? Who provides the officers? Who provides the ammunition? Who provides the ship yards for maintenance and overhaul? What about consumables? Salaries for the crew?

Whoever has enough money that they can buy Erewhon built SDs. Duh. It would be a pretty stupid nation that bought ships they couldn't afford to operate.

Sigs wrote:Ok, what does the Nodal force consist of? Who is funding it, who does it answer to? Who provides the crew? What about ammo?

That's an impossible question to answer, because each sector will have distinct strategic environments. The MDF force in your sector, where they face your 2-3 squadrons of SDs is going to be bigger than the force in mine because I specified a sector without significant threats.

Sigs wrote:If one nation takes control of all the SD’s for the Nodal force, what is to stop it from walking away and having the only SD’s in the sector?

I don't know, an honorable government that abides by their treaty obligations, maybe?

Sigs wrote:Say Haven, Manticore and Greyson donate the ships what then?

I don't see any of the Haven Quadrant Navies simply giving away SDs willy-nilly. They might sell war-surplus SDs to treaty partners who want to contribute more to their own defense, or they might send a detachment of their navy as their contribution to the task force. It all depends on the particular treaty wording and treaty partner capabilities.

Sigs wrote:Do they go to one nation in each sector and they belong to that nation? Are they crewed by all the nations of that sector? Are they funded by all the nations or only one? Who pays the salaries? etc...

Whoever owns the SDs absorb all the costs for the SDs. They may well have exchange personnel from treaty partners, in which case the applicable treaty will specify who pays for what.

How would you negotiate the Mutual Defense Treaty that governs the MDF?

Sigs wrote:You do realize in the books it clearly states that Bolthole was set up well before Janacek and Highridge?

I realize that if High Ridge had had allowed Buttercup to proceed to its logical conclusion, Bolthole would have been "the spoils of war" If High Ridge had negotiated in good faith and concluded a peace treaty with the Republic of Haven, Bolthole would have been a non-factor.

Whether Manticore knew about Bolthole or not is irrelevant. Bolthole only became a factor because High Ridge gave Shannon Forraker time to build something significant -- Bolthole apparently contributed nothing to the war before Shannon took over.

Weird Harold wrote:First, if you have 2 or three squadrons of SDs, the MDF force in your sector would have more than four SDs to oppose any aggression on your part.

Where do this magical SD’s come from? Do they grow on trees?

Weird Harold wrote:Second, by attacking a Nodal Force, you've declared war on the entire MDF and its member nations. Do you really expect to stand up to the entire Mutual Defense Organization all by yourself?

Well, if I have 500-600 SD’s I can take the entire “organization”...

Weird Harold wrote:Whoever owns them. Duh! The same for every other ship assigned to a Nodal MDF.

So then you are saying one of the nations in your Nodal force will have SD’s? Why would they want you in the Nodal force? You don't have much to offer.

Weird Harold wrote:SDs do provide command and control facilities for anti-piracy oriented task forces -- forex Honor's command at Marsh/Sidemore station.

Sure, they needed 54 SD’s for “piracy” and here I was under the impression that they send the SD’s to the station only because they expected war with the Andermani not because they wanted to fight pirates with SD’s.

Weird Harold wrote:However, that wouldn't be their purpose in a Mutual Defense Force; their purpose would be "mutual defense" against systems like your hypothetical aggressive 2-3 squadrons of SDs. Some Nodal forces in quiet sector might not have any SDs, and others might absorb the SDs from quiet sectors to deter would-be conquistadors.

And how do you convince nations to do that? Why would I buy/build/recieve as gifts SD’s from the GA, man them, equip them and maintain them just so I can provide ships for the Nodal force in order to protect nations like yours which has zero interest to protect yourself.


A MUTUAL Defence Treaty requires that ALL sides give equally based on their ability. What you are saying is that everyone else will provide the forces for the Nodal forces, you don't have to do anything but provide a few light combatants.

Weird Harold wrote:Whoever has enough money that they can buy Erewhon built SDs. Duh. It would be a pretty stupid nation that bought ships they couldn't afford to operate.

So I will buy the SD’s for my nation, arm my forces and defend my territory with a well trained, organized and led fleet and you expect that I will send the fleet my citizens are paying for, to protect you.

We cannot get some 200 nations on Earth to agree on one thing, you expect to get 2,000+ Planets to agree to “protect each other”... not likely to happen.

Think about this, what if your neighbour decides to invest even less in their fleet, what would you do if they ask for assistance from the Nodal force and you when they have 20 or 30 systems but only a dozen destroyers and light cruisers? Do you send your fleet to fight and protect a nation that does not care for its own defence? Do you send your limited forces as well as the nodal force to do anti-piracy patrol on a nation not willing to protect itself?

Weird Harold wrote:


That's an impossible question to answer, because each sector will have distinct strategic environments. The MDF force in your sector, where they face your 2-3 squadrons of SDs is going to be bigger than the force in mine because I specified a sector without significant threats.

Who is funding it, who does it answer to? Who provides the crew? What about ammo?

Weird Harold wrote:
I don't know, an honorable government that abides by their treaty obligations, maybe?

Ok I get it, you are basing your entire defence on the honour system... I assume you are not well versed in current affairs and oh I don't know ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY.

Weird Harold wrote: They might sell war-surplus SDs to treaty partners who want to contribute more to their own defense, or they might send a detachment of their navy as their contribution to the task force. It all depends on the particular treaty wording and treaty partner capabilities.

You ignore the one and only question that matters, and it is why would they do that? Why would anyone be it Manticore, or Haven or Grayson send their forces or commit their nations to potenatial war for someone on the other side of the League who is not even interested in maintaining a proper war.

What do they gain out of it? In a democracy, when the citizens go to the voting booths, they will ask why their government has committed them to defending all of former League space thereby allowing nations like the one you propose to leech off of the tax payer of Manticore. When they ask that question, politicians will reassess and those commitments if they were stupid enough to commit to them in the first place. You are expecting Manticore to fund hundreds of SD’s, BC’s, HC’s,CL’s,DD’s, CLAC’,s and thousands of LAC’s in the defence of nations that are not willing to defend themselves ...

Weird Harold wrote:Whoever owns the SDs absorb all the costs for the SDs. They may well have exchange personnel from treaty partners, in which case the applicable treaty will specify who pays for what.

How would you negotiate the Mutual Defense Treaty that governs the MDF?

[/quote]
So basically someone else will buy the SD's, man them and maintain them while you send in only a couple of BC's and a bunch of DD's? What part of that seems to be fair?


So you are not prepared to honour your side of the treaty are you?






So I change my Strategic considerations:
My nation of 20 systems is in a sector that has no Pirates or evil people trying to gain power, as such I need about 2 LAC’s per system for policing. Those 2 LAC’s have no sensor return what so ever and are thus invisible to anyone and everyone(Just because I too have a magic wand), Those LAC’s are armed with a super missile that can take down an SD in one shot and since the LAC’s are invisible I can attack the enemy as many times as I want without ever loosing anything. If I were to get in real trouble Manticore will send in a hundred SD’s and some screen to defend me even though I spend 0.000000000000000000001% of my GDP on defence whereas they have to spend a significant % of their money for MY defence. If I have problems with Pirates Manticore will send some DD’s, CL’s and HC’s for anti-Piracy. I will spend all of my money on the betterment of my society, the improvement of the health of my people and the increased power of my industry and merchant marine all the while spending next to nothing on my defence and expecting Manticore to escort my convoys and rescue my spacers if they are in trouble. Just because they are so selfless that they do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
I don't know, an honorable government that abides by their treaty obligations, maybe?

Ok I get it, you are basing your entire defence on the honour system... I assume you are not well versed in current affairs and oh I don't know ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY.

Sigs, don't bring up History now...

Gotta watch out for historical precedent on things like warfare and population statistics. After all if you adhere to warfare history of mankind, then you might have to adhere to deomographics of the 20th century as well.