Hyperspace Combat and the Solarian Leauge Navy

lyonheart wrote:Apollo missiles weren't being produced yet, but 'regular' Mk-23's were IIRC; and various programs to bring them up to RMN/GSN mil-tech standards were underway or had been completed by OB, some posters suggested the IAN had more Apollo SDP's after BoMA or 1st BoM than either the RMN or GSN and would take due advantage, but that was squelched quickly.

Assuming I'm not incorrectly remembering this, David said at Honorcon that the Andies did not have production of Mk23s going yet. Post disaster a RMN technical team took a full set of design documents to them and was working with the IAN to establish production. I'd assume this would include ACMs etc, but I don't believe we asked that kind of detail.

lyonheart wrote:Hi WhiteCold,

Given the range of Cataphracts [~16.6 M km] a SLN force might attempt to pop into range if the terminus's RZ was only .9 LM, permitting a more equal playing field.

Of course, the GA might have a couple of scouts in hyper to give some warning.

Or the GA forces could simply randomly position themselves, with minimal power wedges (and hence fairly stealthy) somewhere within a few minutes missile shot of the terminus. They don't have to be right up on top of it to stop people from using it.

Even at half power (which I think you'd need for the run-time) a DDM can cover about 7.5 million km in under 3 minutes.


You'd should actually be able to stand off a bit more; that's close enough you should be able to use a half power + a full power drive; and still land your shot before someone coming through the wormhole can clear grav influence lane (before they can fire missiles or raise sidewalls). For that matter if you assume you can win a missile duel you can stay much further back and accept that they'll have their defenses on line before your strikes hit.

And if you've got anything along with full up MDMs (even in towed pods) you can hang further back at the edge of 3x full power range and still land your hits in the vulnerable period.


I agree that attackers are much more likely to arrive through normal hyperspace, but that doesn't make their job all that easy. Just somewhat less instantly suicidal. Even 7.5 million km sphere gives a lot of room to hide in. You'd need very good luck, or a very predictable defensive pattern, to drop out close to a defender. (And that's assuming your astrogation is good enough to land near where you know they are).

Hi KZT,

Do you remember at which topic that was mentioned?

My notes are still almost at hand.

IIRC, the textev indicated the IAN had started Mk-23 production but not Apollo's yet, and the gap between the RMN and IAN mil-tech was still too great for the IAN to begin Apollo production before the RMN this winter, though that ~10 month projection preceded Haven and Beowulf joining the GA; Beowulf knocking at least a few month's off that, so production should have begun in Beowulf before the end of CoG in October.

L

PS: Wasn't B9 going to provide a transcript of all the topics after editing the video?

kzt wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Apollo missiles weren't being produced yet, but 'regular' Mk-23's were IIRC; and various programs to bring them up to RMN/GSN mil-tech standards were underway or had been completed by OB, some posters suggested the IAN had more Apollo SDP's after BoMA or 1st BoM than either the RMN or GSN and would take due advantage, but that was squelched quickly.

Assuming I'm not incorrectly remembering this, David said at Honorcon that the Andies did not have production of Mk23s going yet. Post disaster a RMN technical team took a full set of design documents to them and was working with the IAN to establish production. I'd assume this would include ACMs etc, but I don't believe we asked that kind of detail.

It was the Andies discussion. I asked if the IAN had started MK23 production. I may have phrased it differently, as I was internally wondering about the IAN deciding to convert the bulk of their navy to use a weapon they couldn't make.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Alizon,

My apologies.

I didn't realise what a sensitive woman you were, I'm sorry to hurt your feelings that way.

As a matter of fact, your gender wasn't important to me, the value and accuracy of your ideas were; I thought that was how things were supposed to work.

But I'm glad we've finally gotten to the core truth here, that you really weren't that serious about this concept.

Making that clear would have helped the discussion.

But congratulations on being so convincing, because I really thought you were being really really invested in defending the SL's survival despite all the obvious evidence, so I was almost beginning to worry about your mental thinking, it was so repetitive.

Imagination is obviously very important, but why revealing your gender is important or justification for flaming is something else again.

I am glad you're another lady fan of RFC, I'm friends with several BTW, and I'll give you full credit for imagining the hyper defense concept; but after 8 years of posting at the bar and the forums, seeing and yes even making some suggestions on how to try to save the SL early on, then seeing the same old, same old ideas has obviously reduced my patience for this subject which has gotten rather tiresome IMO, some of of my comments in my last post to you were over the top and for that I apologize.

I'm glad you've recognised there's no textev to support your hyper defense concept, and it was clever in a way; but being aware of all the clues or hints should have been accounted for earlier in your arguments, to be fair to your readers, and who knows, perhaps you actually hit something RFC overlooked, I doubt it but if you're right, then kudos.

I've had RFC correct my impressions of how things work or could because of clues I'd overlooked more times than I want to remember.

I've also forgotten how often I was right.

Claiming your imagination overrules or supplants the rules of the honorverse, though also used by other posters here, doesn't cut that much ice with me or other posters.

Regarding my imagination, its been directed at what RFC hasn't told us yet; I've been expressing it in several thousand posts here and at the bar over the years and I suspect RFC has been irked by at least a few of my posts, given his rather negative responses.

I've been curious about almost everything in the honorverse etc that's still a mystery; what's going to happen next after CoG, NTM about how the honor-verse works; how big is the human colonized part of the galaxy or the MMM, how much does a MDM cost and how many can the SKM/SEM or Haven afford to make every day; or for example just how large is Manticore's economic and financial impact on the SL, given it gets news so much faster than anywhere else, ie much of the SL's vibrant trade and financial heart is in the SKM because it has to be.

Being told you have too much testosterone is a compliment to most real men; if you feel I was bullying you because you were a woman, I apologize for not noticing any clues you gave.

But kudos for "adapting, improvising, and overcoming" the obstacles in your life.

While the marines made it a credo, all adults by definition do it, so congratulations again.

Good luck with your future ideas and posts; I've liked some in the past as you know, and know I will again in the future.

L

Lyonheart,

I don't think that the terms used by you were ones that are likely to endear you to many regardless of gender. I give respect to other posters regardless of whether I agree with them or not, I expect the same in return. That's not being a "sensitive woman" it's called common courtesy and civility where I come from.

Yes we are supposed to discuss ideas but using words such as "childish" and "pathetic" amongst others are hardly conducive to any kind of rational debate. It wasn't that you countered my argument that irritated me, it was the additional comment that I found offensive and unnecessary.

I'm well aware that, having been raised by a Marine, I'm familiar with the credo you mentioned. I don't think most people would call me sensitive, they'd call me someone who stands their ground when it's ground worth standing on.

That being said, thanks for the apology and I share your desire to not have any further unpleasantness with you.

I do want to comment however on "seriousness". I am very serious on the matters I've presented here. While I've found them challenging I'm the sort who relishes to the prospect of taking the "unwinnable" situation and attempting to figure out how to win anyway.

Having said that, nothing that I have knowingly said doesn't have a thread of logic based on information drawn from the books and available information about the Honorverse. I regard this as something different from RFC's intended story arc because the Honorverse and the story arc are not exactly the same. The Honorverse is the information we have about the setting and the forces at work within it. From any particular point in time, how things develop are based on the actions to be taken by those involved.

RFC will look at those conditions and determine how those decisions will be made, what actions will take place and write about it. However, from the same starting point, different decisions and actions can lead to different results. Those results are still based on the Honorverse, they may simply be different that what RFC intends to write.

This doesn't mean that evaluations which lead in a different direction than RFC will ultimately move aren't based on something or have no evidence to support them or that they aren't "serious".

For example, I can fairly easily look at the information available and predict that the events of Oyster Bay are likely to slow and blunt Alliance actions vs the League. This can give the League some time to do the things they need to do to survive. All of the information that the leaders of the League need to make effective decisions is almost certainly literally at their fingertips and none of them reached the positions they've attained by being dumb. Hence, all of the conditions for the League to take effective steps is present.

But as has been pointed out, even if the ingredients are present, it's like having everything you need to bake a cake except for the willingness to actually do the baking part. If the League could find enough people in the right position to do the baking, it could, based on the information available in the books, survive.

If all of these things are true, then the question is, will the leaders of the League use those ingredients in a way which gives the League a chance, or will they hesitate, ignore them or use them improperly instead.

By far the most likely answer to that questions is "no they won't". The intriguing question is, "what if they did?"

Anyway, thanks for your response.

Alizon wrote:That being said, thanks for the apology and I share your desire to not have any further unpleasantness with you.

I do want to comment however on "seriousness". I am very serious on the matters I've presented here. While I've found them challenging I'm the sort who relishes to the prospect of taking the "unwinnable" situation and attempting to figure out how to win anyway.

Having said that, nothing that I have knowingly said doesn't have a thread of logic based on information drawn from the books and available information about the Honorverse. I regard this as something different from RFC's intended story arc because the Honorverse and the story arc are not exactly the same. The Honorverse is the information we have about the setting and the forces at work within it. From any particular point in time, how things develop are based on the actions to be taken by those involved.

RFC will look at those conditions and determine how those decisions will be made, what actions will take place and write about it. However, from the same starting point, different decisions and actions can lead to different results. Those results are still based on the Honorverse, they may simply be different that what RFC intends to write.

This doesn't mean that evaluations which lead in a different direction than RFC will ultimately move aren't based on something or have no evidence to support them or that they aren't "serious".

I think this was well said. But also that if it had been a bit clearer in your earlier posts that you were deliberately exploring potential alternatives to the path RFC had laid out.

If it'd been expressed as a "what-if they did" there might have been more involvement in exploring that, or at least less push back that "RFC already said they won't".

Thanks. I guess you live and learn.

In the case of hyperspace combat however, whether RFC writes about it or not, I think there's a realistic possibility that some SLN commander somewhere will be willing to give it a try. It represents one of their few survivable options.

I can't guess whether RFC will actually attempt to include anything like this in his writings, I'd bet on not but I don't know for certain. However it would be interesting to see something along these lines in one of the compilations of shorter stories by other authors.

Alizon wrote:Thanks. I guess you live and learn.

In the case of hyperspace combat however, whether RFC writes about it or not, I think there's a realistic possibility that some SLN commander somewhere will be willing to give it a try. It represents one of their few survivable options.

I can't guess whether RFC will actually attempt to include anything like this in his writings, I'd bet on not but I don't know for certain. However it would be interesting to see something along these lines in one of the compilations of shorter stories by other authors.

I have difficulty imagining our beloved author at being anything other than completely delighted at how his writing gives wing to our imaginations or how intensely interested we are in his creations. I enjoy trying to anticipate where RFC is going to take the story and also the "what if..."questions when I understand perfectly well how highly improbable it is that the story is going to go that way. David's genius is that he can inspire both.

Don

Alizon wrote:<snip>
For example, I can fairly easily look at the information available and predict that the events of Oyster Bay are likely to slow and blunt Alliance actions vs the League. This can give the League some time to do the things they need to do to survive. All of the information that the leaders of the League need to make effective decisions is almost certainly literally at their fingertips and none of them reached the positions they've attained by being dumb. Hence, all of the conditions for the League to take effective steps is present.

But as has been pointed out, even if the ingredients are present, it's like having everything you need to bake a cake except for the willingness to actually do the baking part. If the League could find enough people in the right position to do the baking, it could, based on the information available in the books, survive.

If all of these things are true, then the question is, will the leaders of the League use those ingredients in a way which gives the League a chance, or will they hesitate, ignore them or use them improperly instead.

By far the most likely answer to that questions is "no they won't". The intriguing question is, "what if they did?"

Anyway, thanks for your response.

I've always found it interesting, when looking at historical "turning points" the unwise decisions the supposedly smart, well informed leaders of the time made. In retrospect, it's wackey to think that the Brtish Monarch, German Kaiser, and Russian Czar who reigned during WWI were 1st cousins who grew up spending time together and had no known anomosities towards each other (I recently saw a group of pictures of the three vacationing together as teens). These were men who should have been able to sit down over an expensive dinner and have sorted out world affairs before they adjourned to the sitting room for brandy. Yet, on their watch, the 2nd not destructive war in history waged between the countries they and their relatives ruled.

Entire shelves of books have been written on the subject of the 1st world war and the events leading up to it - many written before the war even happened. Newspaper Pundits of the time argued over the arms race in Europe, decrying the increasing national annimosities, and most screamed at the futility and unnecessary nature of it all.

And yet relatives, who were friends, led us blindly into the worst war ever seen because of the death of a 2nd cousin that none of them even liked.

The reason I mention this is smart, well-educated, well-intentioned people have historically made horrible decisions for what seemed at the time to be the best of reasons. People too proud to allow any dust to fall on their image sometimes simply cannot see correct avenues of opportunity, because their honor or pride is in the way, so they never back down that needed inch which would have saved the situation.

I've met too many people who simply cannot admit "I screwed up" and always look for a scapegoat whenever a situation goes wrong - and too many times the ambition of this personality type leads to a leadership role - though they are usually the least suited for it.

The entire time I've been reading the Mandarin portions of the last couple books, a portion of my head has been waiting for someone - anyone - to say "Whoa - this is getting out of hand", but the inevitable parade of arrogance just continued.

And yet this follows historical patterns. All great civilizations fell more due to the rot and from within than the pressure without. The arrogance of those societies was the veneer which kept all but the wisest from seeing the truth before it was too late.

So to me, David's story is completly plausable, and history would point at your list of baking ingredients as proof of the foolishness of it all, just like my Bavarian vacation photograph of young monarchs to be.

The Honorverse is fictional. Given that the Honorverse is fiction, I think that it is perfectly reasonable to explore alternative ideas that are inconsistent with the HINTS that Weber has revealed about the future story arc.

Alizon wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Alizon,

My apologies.

I didn't realise what a sensitive woman you were, I'm sorry to hurt your feelings that way.

As a matter of fact, your gender wasn't important to me, the value and accuracy of your ideas were; I thought that was how things were supposed to work.

But I'm glad we've finally gotten to the core truth here, that you really weren't that serious about this concept.

Making that clear would have helped the discussion.

But congratulations on being so convincing, because I really thought you were being really really invested in defending the SL's survival despite all the obvious evidence, so I was almost beginning to worry about your mental thinking, it was so repetitive.

Imagination is obviously very important, but why revealing your gender is important or justification for flaming is something else again.

I am glad you're another lady fan of RFC, I'm friends with several BTW, and I'll give you full credit for imagining the hyper defense concept; but after 8 years of posting at the bar and the forums, seeing and yes even making some suggestions on how to try to save the SL early on, then seeing the same old, same old ideas has obviously reduced my patience for this subject which has gotten rather tiresome IMO, some of of my comments in my last post to you were over the top and for that I apologize.

I'm glad you've recognised there's no textev to support your hyper defense concept, and it was clever in a way; but being aware of all the clues or hints should have been accounted for earlier in your arguments, to be fair to your readers, and who knows, perhaps you actually hit something RFC overlooked, I doubt it but if you're right, then kudos.

I've had RFC correct my impressions of how things work or could because of clues I'd overlooked more times than I want to remember.

I've also forgotten how often I was right.

Claiming your imagination overrules or supplants the rules of the honorverse, though also used by other posters here, doesn't cut that much ice with me or other posters.

Regarding my imagination, its been directed at what RFC hasn't told us yet; I've been expressing it in several thousand posts here and at the bar over the years and I suspect RFC has been irked by at least a few of my posts, given his rather negative responses.

I've been curious about almost everything in the honorverse etc that's still a mystery; what's going to happen next after CoG, NTM about how the honor-verse works; how big is the human colonized part of the galaxy or the MMM, how much does a MDM cost and how many can the SKM/SEM or Haven afford to make every day; or for example just how large is Manticore's economic and financial impact on the SL, given it gets news so much faster than anywhere else, ie much of the SL's vibrant trade and financial heart is in the SKM because it has to be.

Being told you have too much testosterone is a compliment to most real men; if you feel I was bullying you because you were a woman, I apologize for not noticing any clues you gave.

But kudos for "adapting, improvising, and overcoming" the obstacles in your life.

While the marines made it a credo, all adults by definition do it, so congratulations again.

Good luck with your future ideas and posts; I've liked some in the past as you know, and know I will again in the future.

L

Lyonheart,

I don't think that the terms used by you were ones that are likely to endear you to many regardless of gender. I give respect to other posters regardless of whether I agree with them or not, I expect the same in return. That's not being a "sensitive woman" it's called common courtesy and civility where I come from.

Yes we are supposed to discuss ideas but using words such as "childish" and "pathetic" amongst others are hardly conducive to any kind of rational debate. It wasn't that you countered my argument that irritated me, it was the additional comment that I found offensive and unnecessary.

I'm well aware that, having been raised by a Marine, I'm familiar with the credo you mentioned. I don't think most people would call me sensitive, they'd call me someone who stands their ground when it's ground worth standing on.

That being said, thanks for the apology and I share your desire to not have any further unpleasantness with you.

I do want to comment however on "seriousness". I am very serious on the matters I've presented here. While I've found them challenging I'm the sort who relishes to the prospect of taking the "unwinnable" situation and attempting to figure out how to win anyway.

Having said that, nothing that I have knowingly said doesn't have a thread of logic based on information drawn from the books and available information about the Honorverse. I regard this as something different from RFC's intended story arc because the Honorverse and the story arc are not exactly the same. The Honorverse is the information we have about the setting and the forces at work within it. From any particular point in time, how things develop are based on the actions to be taken by those involved.

RFC will look at those conditions and determine how those decisions will be made, what actions will take place and write about it. However, from the same starting point, different decisions and actions can lead to different results. Those results are still based on the Honorverse, they may simply be different that what RFC intends to write.

This doesn't mean that evaluations which lead in a different direction than RFC will ultimately move aren't based on something or have no evidence to support them or that they aren't "serious".

For example, I can fairly easily look at the information available and predict that the events of Oyster Bay are likely to slow and blunt Alliance actions vs the League. This can give the League some time to do the things they need to do to survive. All of the information that the leaders of the League need to make effective decisions is almost certainly literally at their fingertips and none of them reached the positions they've attained by being dumb. Hence, all of the conditions for the League to take effective steps is present.

But as has been pointed out, even if the ingredients are present, it's like having everything you need to bake a cake except for the willingness to actually do the baking part. If the League could find enough people in the right position to do the baking, it could, based on the information available in the books, survive.

If all of these things are true, then the question is, will the leaders of the League use those ingredients in a way which gives the League a chance, or will they hesitate, ignore them or use them improperly instead.

By far the most likely answer to that questions is "no they won't". The intriguing question is, "what if they did?"

Anyway, thanks for your response.