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Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?

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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by GregD   » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:53 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
But when you have something like 40-plus nuclear detonations, spread through an entire star system — including orbital structures, not on the planetary surface where all of the other “terrorist” attacks occurred — and all of them occurring simultaneously, not spread out and sequenced the way the “terrorist” attacks were, you are clearly talking about a far more sophisticated operation. And the only people reasonably in place to carryout that operation are the Manties and their Havenite allies.

It is totally reasonable for O’Hanrahan — and a whole stack of other newsies — to follow exactly that chain of logic, and there would be absolutely no legitimate grounds for Mike Henke or anyone else to single Audrey O’Hanrahan out of all the other background noise for following a completely logical perspective on the story. And she didn’t exactly shift her theories overnight, either. It’s an ongoing process, and the last thing she said is that there are unanswered questions, that she is no longer certain of anything, and that she intends to follow the story wherever he goes.

Please point me at something suspicious in that.


No, it's not reasonable to believe that 1 day ofter the Manties arrived they were capable of doing that, without a single missile trace showing up anywhere.

Hell, I'm guess that the Manties hadn't even managed to get a single ship anywhere near a bunch of the places that were nuked.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by kzt   » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:47 pm

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roseandheather wrote:
That's a very good point (and one I didn't think of, probably because I was all of a year old when the USSR collapsed). If it does go down like a chain of dominoes, though, I can only wonder how bloody the aftermath will be.

However the core of Russia remains.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by pappilon   » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:43 pm

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kzt wrote:However the core of Russia remains.


Yes, Russia survived and Putin is busily trying to put all the pieces together again. Earth will survive (barring some Eridani Edict violation by some NA world in retaliation for the BF attack on its orbital infrastructure). And its surviving government will also try to retain as much of its empire as possible.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:49 pm

quite possibly a cat
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pappilon wrote: And its surviving government will also try to retain as much of its empire as possible.

Umm... I don't think Earth has an empire. The Solarian League has its capital on Earth, but I don't remember seeing anything that said Sol didn't have its own system government.

Hell, I suspect that people who live of space based habitats or the like will react extremely poorly to the antics of the SLN. Also if a large number of citizens of Sol live in off of Earth they probably have pretty large cultural differences when compared to people who live on habitable planets.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:00 pm

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GregD wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
But when you have something like 40-plus nuclear detonations, spread through an entire star system — including orbital structures, not on the planetary surface where all of the other “terrorist” attacks occurred — and all of them occurring simultaneously, not spread out and sequenced the way the “terrorist” attacks were, you are clearly talking about a far more sophisticated operation. And the only people reasonably in place to carryout that operation are the Manties and their Havenite allies.

It is totally reasonable for O’Hanrahan — and a whole stack of other newsies — to follow exactly that chain of logic, and there would be absolutely no legitimate grounds for Mike Henke or anyone else to single Audrey O’Hanrahan out of all the other background noise for following a completely logical perspective on the story. And she didn’t exactly shift her theories overnight, either. It’s an ongoing process, and the last thing she said is that there are unanswered questions, that she is no longer certain of anything, and that she intends to follow the story wherever he goes.

Please point me at something suspicious in that.


No, it's not reasonable to believe that 1 day ofter the Manties arrived they were capable of doing that, without a single missile trace showing up anywhere.

Hell, I'm guess that the Manties hadn't even managed to get a single ship anywhere near a bunch of the places that were nuked.



The point is that the newsies (and the League) are being fed the "well, of course the records show no missile traces, but that's because the Manties control all of the sensors that would have seen them." The fact that Manticore has no explanation for how the explosions were arranged --- aside from "the Alignment did it" --- is falling on deaf ears (in many cases) because the existence of the Alignment has already been written off as a paranoid fabrication. In fact, you are right in a lot of what you're saying. My point is that Hanrahan has no access to any information other than that available to all the other newsies and that what she's saying at this point is that she doesn't know how the warheads were delivered, that she doesn't want to think it was the Manties, but that the only people who had ships in position to deliver them were the GA and that no one is offering any other explanation that makes sense. She is saying she will get to the bottom of it, wherever it leads, not that she already knows the GA did it.

And, trust me, the whole situation with the Alignment is about to get a lot muddier on the surface of Mesa, as well.

My point is that it isn't at all unreasonable for her to say that she doesn't see anyone else[ in a position to have executed the attacks, that they coincided with the Mantie's arrival; that they are fundamentally different from the "terrorist" attacks which preceded them, and thatg in the absence of independently verified evidence of how the warheads weren't delivered, the GA's claims that it didn't do it are unproveable.

If she were the only journalist saying that, if she were offering "evidence" that the GA did do it rather than saying that she doesn't know that it didn't then she might --- might --- be saying something sufficiently unreasonable for Mike to say to herself "Aha! This journalist who has spent decades, at the risk of her own life, uncovering one scandal after another and has never been caught falsifying evidence (who, in fact, apologized publicly when someone fed her falsified evidence) is obviously a member of the Allignment!"

Can you really not see how unlikely it is that someone with O'Hanrahan's reputation and proven chops as the gold standard of honest, investigative journalism would suddenly be seen as a member of the Allignment only because she is saying she doesn't know what happened?!


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by pappilon   » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:38 am

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runsforcelery wrote:The point is that the newsies (and the League) are being fed the "well, of course the records show no missile traces, but that's because the Manties control all of the sensors that would have seen them." The fact that Manticore has no explanation for how the explosions were arranged --- aside from "the Alignment did it" --- is falling on deaf ears (in many cases) because the existence of the Alignment has already been written off as a paranoid fabrication. In fact, you are right in a lot of what you're saying. My point is that Hanrahan has no access to any information other than that available to all the other newsies and that what she's saying at this point is that she doesn't know how the warheads were delivered, that she doesn't want to think it was the Manties, but that the only people who had ships in position to deliver them were the GA and that no one is offering any other explanation that makes sense. She is saying she will get to the bottom of it, wherever it leads, not that she already knows the GA did it.

And, trust me, the whole situation with the Alignment is about to get a lot muddier on the surface of Mesa, as well.

My point is that it isn't at all unreasonable for her to say that she doesn't see anyone else[ in a position to have executed the attacks, that they coincided with the Mantie's arrival; that they are fundamentally different from the "terrorist" attacks which preceded them, and thatg in the absence of independently verified evidence of how the warheads weren't delivered, the GA's claims that it didn't do it are unproveable.

If she were the only journalist saying that, if she were offering "evidence" that the GA did do it rather than saying that she doesn't know that it didn't then she might --- might --- be saying something sufficiently unreasonable for Mike to say to herself "Aha! This journalist who has spent decades, at the risk of her own life, uncovering one scandal after another and has never been caught falsifying evidence (who, in fact, apologized publicly when someone fed her falsified evidence) is obviously a member of the Allignment!"

Can you really not see how unlikely it is that someone with O'Hanrahan's reputation and proven chops as the gold standard of honest, investigative journalism would suddenly be seen as a member of the Allignment only because she is saying she doesn't know what happened?!



But ...but! But we know who did it, why is it so hard for the poor characters in the story to just accept what we already know? Gimme their email and I'll send them a copy of the book, that'll straighten out the whole mess. :roll: :lol: :?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by runsforcelery   » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:01 pm

runsforcelery
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Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

pappilon wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:The point is that the newsies (and the League) are being fed the "well, of course the records show no missile traces, but that's because the Manties control all of the sensors that would have seen them." The fact that Manticore has no explanation for how the explosions were arranged --- aside from "the Alignment did it" --- is falling on deaf ears (in many cases) because the existence of the Alignment has already been written off as a paranoid fabrication. In fact, you are right in a lot of what you're saying. My point is that Hanrahan has no access to any information other than that available to all the other newsies and that what she's saying at this point is that she doesn't know how the warheads were delivered, that she doesn't want to think it was the Manties, but that the only people who had ships in position to deliver them were the GA and that no one is offering any other explanation that makes sense. She is saying she will get to the bottom of it, wherever it leads, not that she already knows the GA did it.

And, trust me, the whole situation with the Alignment is about to get a lot muddier on the surface of Mesa, as well.

My point is that it isn't at all unreasonable for her to say that she doesn't see anyone else[ in a position to have executed the attacks, that they coincided with the Mantie's arrival; that they are fundamentally different from the "terrorist" attacks which preceded them, and thatg in the absence of independently verified evidence of how the warheads weren't delivered, the GA's claims that it didn't do it are unproveable.

If she were the only journalist saying that, if she were offering "evidence" that the GA did do it rather than saying that she doesn't know that it didn't then she might --- might --- be saying something sufficiently unreasonable for Mike to say to herself "Aha! This journalist who has spent decades, at the risk of her own life, uncovering one scandal after another and has never been caught falsifying evidence (who, in fact, apologized publicly when someone fed her falsified evidence) is obviously a member of the Allignment!"

Can you really not see how unlikely it is that someone with O'Hanrahan's reputation and proven chops as the gold standard of honest, investigative journalism would suddenly be seen as a member of the Allignment only because she is saying she doesn't know what happened?!



But ...but! But we know who did it, why is it so hard for the poor characters in the story to just accept what we already know? Gimme their email and I'll send them a copy of the book, that'll straighten out the whole mess. :roll: :lol: :?


Well, there's also the minor point that I think some people are underestimating how long 10th Fleet was in orbit --- or exactly what it was doing --- when the bombs were triggered. Mike Henke and Susan Hibson aren't the sort to let grass grow under their feet. They already had pinnaces and landing parties in atmosphere, headed for the first couple of dozen carefully chosen LZs, when the explosions began. In fact, the knowledge that the Manties were headed for the surface (and a minor implication for the success of his plans) was what dictated Albrecht's timing. So the time window available for the Manties to do their nefarious work is wider than I think is being assumed by some.

And the evidence that it wasn't a missile strike to which I referred earlier is, indeed, the absence of coronas of plasma shrieking down out of the night time sky. Don't need any stinkin' sensor records of impeller signatures if enough iphones caught the "death rays" screaming down the sky! Only there ain't none.

Someone mentioned the fact that people missed the light show when Security used a KEW on the seccy tower in Cauldron. Nobody in the vicinity "missed" it, but for some odd reason, the totally independent and rigorously impartial Mesan news services failed to mention this in any of its coverage. The Seccies and the slaves --- and the full citizens in the vicinity --- knew what had really happened; nobody outside the immediate vicinity did. And those who did know understood from the official version that they were to keep that minor fact to themselves.

One of the "everyone knows" secrets of Mesa is that sometimes the official news has to be . . . tailored a bit in the interest of not encouraging additional servile rebellion, after all. So it's not like the citizens wouldn't have expected the GA to lie about its own actions after it invaded. And the off-world newsies covering the story are still feeling their way into the official explanation for what happened. There are, however, ways to explain away the absence of that visual evidence of missiles carrying out the strike.

As to what they are, though . . . .

I'm afraid you'll just have to read the book to find out. :twisted:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:21 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
Well, there's also the minor point that I think some people are underestimating how long 10th Fleet was in orbit --- or exactly what it was doing --- when the bombs were triggered. Mike Henke and Susan Hibson aren't the sort to let grass grow under their feet. They already had pinnaces and landing parties in atmosphere, headed for the first couple of dozen carefully chosen LZs, when the explosions began. In fact, the knowledge that the Manties were headed for the surface (and a minor implication for the success of his plans) was what dictated Albrecht's timing. So the time window available for the Manties to do their nefarious work is wider than I think is being assumed by some.

And the evidence that it wasn't a missile strike to which I referred earlier is, indeed, the absence of coronas of plasma shrieking down out of the night time sky. Don't need any stinkin' sensor records of impeller signatures if enough iphones caught the "death rays" screaming down the sky! Only there ain't none.

Someone mentioned the fact that people missed the light show when Security used a KEW on the seccy tower in Cauldron. Nobody in the vicinity "missed" it, but for some odd reason, the totally independent and rigorously impartial Mesan news services failed to mention this in any of its coverage. The Seccies and the slaves --- and the full citizens in the vicinity --- knew what had really happened; nobody outside the immediate vicinity did. And those who did know understood from the official version that they were to keep that minor fact to themselves.

One of the "everyone knows" secrets of Mesa is that sometimes the official news has to be . . . tailored a bit in the interest of not encouraging additional servile rebellion, after all. So it's not like the citizens wouldn't have expected the GA to lie about its own actions after it invaded. And the off-world newsies covering the story are still feeling their way into the official explanation for what happened. There are, however, ways to explain away the absence of that visual evidence of missiles carrying out the strike.

As to what they are, though . . . .

I'm afraid you'll just have to read the book to find out. :twisted:

Well, it obviously wasn't a high speed missile! But to "explain" the lack of plasma you just add some contra-grav to it so it heads down at a nice respectable velocity. Paint it the same color as the sky and or add some stealth tech? This is especially easy if landing teams were already on there way. They obviously weren't missiles, just stealth bombs.

With Manticore's luck a reporter is going to find an unexploded one with parts produced in Manticore and only sold to the military! Or a bunch of official Mesan sensor data is gonna show stealth bombs. Or both.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by JustCurious   » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:44 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:I think you can guess what they're upset about.

Did I ever mention that angry people sometimes make less than optimal decisions? ;)

__________________________________________________

“None of that would’ve been necessary if not for the fucking Manties.” Gervais’s voice was a snarl. “It’s that goddamned loose warhead Gold Peak’s fault. If she weren’t such a maniac, if we hadn’t known she’d be coming for Mesa as soon as she possibly could, we wouldn’t have had to rush Houdini that way and Mom and Dad would be right here on Darius right now.”

A sort of sub-aural growl answered him, but Collin shook his head.

“Gold Peak may be the one who actually pulled the trigger, but it wasn’t just her. It was her whole damned ‘Star Empire’ and their goddamned friends. All of them. Elizabeth, Mayhew, Pritchart . . . and that bitch Harrington.”

Now what sub-optimal decision might they be going to make?
There has been a rather large Checkov's gun lying around. I refer to the treecat bodyguards.
I thibk the Detweillers will use the assassination nanotech to try to assassinate much of the Alliance leadership. And that this will backfire with captured victims of that tech.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by Daryl   » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:32 pm

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Capturing isn't something that tree cats do well though.
Reducing threats to hamburger is more their style.

JustCurious wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:I think you can guess what they're upset about.

Did I ever mention that angry people sometimes make less than optimal decisions? ;)

__________________________________________________

“None of that would’ve been necessary if not for the fucking Manties.” Gervais’s voice was a snarl. “It’s that goddamned loose warhead Gold Peak’s fault. If she weren’t such a maniac, if we hadn’t known she’d be coming for Mesa as soon as she possibly could, we wouldn’t have had to rush Houdini that way and Mom and Dad would be right here on Darius right now.”

A sort of sub-aural growl answered him, but Collin shook his head.

“Gold Peak may be the one who actually pulled the trigger, but it wasn’t just her. It was her whole damned ‘Star Empire’ and their goddamned friends. All of them. Elizabeth, Mayhew, Pritchart . . . and that bitch Harrington.”

Now what sub-optimal decision might they be going to make?
There has been a rather large Checkov's gun lying around. I refer to the treecat bodyguards.
I thibk the Detweillers will use the assassination nanotech to try to assassinate much of the Alliance leadership. And that this will backfire with captured victims of that tech.
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