Question about Beowulf tactics

StealthSeeker wrote:In Chapter 35 or ART the Mandarin Kolokoltsov talked about 3 additional system (Strathmore, Kenichi, Galen) that might also vote to exit the SL. Does anybody know if these are close neighboring system of Beowulf?

If so, they would make a nice little 4 system "empire" in the middle of the SL core worlds.

IIRC, those were colony worlds of Beowulf at one time. If so there would be logic and perhaps some willingness to implement your idea. Hoever there is no textev to suggest that these systems would not wish to be independent. In that event, perhaps it would be more appropriate to consider some sort of mutual defense arrangements with the GA.

Don

StealthSeeker wrote:Keyhole-2 missile control systems are able to use FTL communication capability to talk with Mark23-E missiles

Mark-23E missiles have a FTL communications link rather than a warhead, it is launched with a pod worth of standard Mark23 capital class missiles to which the "E" version forwards maneuver/attack commands

Standard Mark-23 missiles are 3 stage capital ship missiles with light speed communication links. To control them you need either one old style light speed telemetry link per missile, or , when launched as a pod launched group with a Mark-23E, a group of 8 Mark-23's can be controlled by one FTL telemetry link.

So,... if Beowulf is installing "mycroft" platforms for defense, wouldn't the only missiles they would be interested in producing be the Mark-23 and Mark-23E versions???

The 23E also has a standard light speed reciever, so you can control an entire pod with just one LS control link as was seen in the big battle in Talbott. Also, the KH2 have FTL transmitters IN ADDITION TO the standard light speed control links, so they can be used to control pods of standard missiles if you need them to.

StealthSeeker wrote: Aren't there even larger system defense missiles called Mark-23F or Mark-25 versions, with the latter being a 4 stage missile??? Are either of these controlled with FTL links or would they be launched with a Mark-23E for control effectiveness????

I do remember the system defence variant of the Apollo missiles, I think it was called the MK25, and I suspect that system defense pods have 8 MK25s and one MK25E for faster than light control.

StealthSeeker wrote:As far as refitting Beowulf's older SD ships, wouldn't the Mark-23 be physically over sized for the older ships??? Would it be more practical to refit older SD's to use Mark-16 2-stage missiles as they would be a better re-fit for the structure of the old ship design??? I think the only thing that can fit a Mark-23 is a ship designed from scratch that can accommodate it's size.

The problem with refitting older ships isn't so much the size of the missiles, but more with the charging points. In the classic designs, you had to charge the capacitors, and this was usually done in the firing que before it got to the launchers. In modern Mantie MDMs, you have to fire up a fusion plant, and this is done in the launchers, because no one would want multiple running microfusion plants any deeper in the ship than they need to be. The amount of work required to change an older, SDM ship to fire any type of MDM is so much that it would be almost as easy to build an entirely new ship, and a new ship would probably have less issues.

n7axw wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:In Chapter 35 or ART the Mandarin Kolokoltsov talked about 3 additional system (Strathmore, Kenichi, Galen) that might also vote to exit the SL. Does anybody know if these are close neighboring system of Beowulf?

If so, they would make a nice little 4 system "empire" in the middle of the SL core worlds.

IIRC, those were colony worlds of Beowulf at one time. If so there would be logic and perhaps some willingness to implement your idea. Hoever there is no textev to suggest that these systems would not wish to be independent. In that event, perhaps it would be more appropriate to consider some sort of mutual defense arrangements with the GA.

Don

Your memory is playing tricks on you.

What we know from the text in the Honorverse books states that Beowulf has daughter colonies. The plural form of colony has always been used, so we know there are at least two.

But what we have never been told is exactly how many daughter colonies Beowulf has, their names, locations, and what their relationship is with each other and the mother world.

StealthSeeker wrote:So,... if Beowulf is installing "mycroft" platforms for defense, wouldn't the only missiles they would be interested in producing be the Mark-23 and Mark-23E versions???

Aren't there even larger system defense missiles called Mark-23F or Mark-25 versions, with the latter being a 4 stage missile??? Are either of these controlled with FTL links or would they be launched with a Mark-23E for control effectiveness????

n7axw covered most of the points, but ...

The question isn't about what missiles Beowulf can produce, it is what Manticore can loan them in the short-term while the Mycroft system reaches full redundancy.

What Manticore can do is thin out their System Defense Missile deployment to provide four-drive system defense pods -- Apollo and non-Apollo versions. They probably have some pre-Mk-23/25 system defense missiles as well as the more modern four-drive Mk-23/25 pods.

Haven can probably provide whatever system defense missiles that they use with Moriarty control systems as well. Or system defense missiles can be purchased from the Andermani.

Beowulf probably also has existing Solarian tech system defense missiles already deployed.

Mycroft should be able to control any or all of those missiles through light-speed control links. All of those older missiles will eventually be replaced with Mk-25/25E Four-drive system defense missiles with FTL control missiles, but a mix and match deployment of Boommenstoff (from various sources and eras) will suffice to defend Beowulf from the worst the SLN can put together.

At least as long as they get minimal coverage by Mycroft control modules deployed to cover the most probable approach vectors...

Castenea wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:IIRC, David had a line in one of the anthologies (I think) that the birth of HH came at the end of a long period of relative peace - a Pax Solara so to speak. I suspect that there is not going to be another long period of peace, even after the MAlign is defeated, until something similar to the SL arises again - an 800 lb gorilla that can enforce the peace. It is possible that Haven and Manticore together can do so for a period of time, but I expect that alliance to break down sometime after the MAlign is defeated - not to go back to war with each other, but because there is no longer a reason for the alliance, at least in the minds of the populations of the two nations.

I would suggest even after(if?) the formal peace treaty(s) between Haven, Erewhon, Manticore, and Anderman breakdown, unless the big boys are competing for something specific there will likely be an informal understanding that will keep the mayhem to a minimum in many areas where any of them are active. A good example would be South America where from 1820 till now with a few exceptions, a combination of US and British power kept Outside interference and even international wars down (the exceptions are just that exceptions). Even if for the first ~80 years despite US bombast it was the UK that actually kept the peace.

Agreed. Assuming that the larger powers don't have support for rival client states leaving them unable or uninterested in stopping some conflicts, of course. I wouldn't be utterly certain in that assumption, but I'd rate the odds at a lot better than even.

Even then, those are powers that have historically been quite good about enforcing the Cherwell Convention. Adopting the orphaned Eridani Edict as their own - and perhaps insisting on it and the signing of the Cherwell Convention as conditions of mutual defense treaties - isn't a much larger step and it should be a very good one for assuring a transition as light in atrocities ("peaceful" isn't on the table) as they can get.

Manticore at least should be in a good position to discover, investigate, and reach out and touch someone in case of EE violations, with the far-flung merchant marine and extensive wormhole connections. (I would not be surprised if Manticore or Beowulf became a new center of interstellar news media as much as Manticore is for finance, based on the information value of the Junction and the new political role either of them will have in the post-League era.) The Congress of Vienna established a pretty fair model of a multi-polar international order that kept some sort of lid on international strife for a good while; I think the SEM, Republic of Haven, Andermani Empire, and the largest League successor states could do that well or better.

That still leaves a lot of room for a lot of awfulness - particularly given how much budget there will be for awfulness, how much the Verge may be out for blood, and how much screwing around the Alignment has left to do. But there is at any rate plenty of reason to hope for something much less bad than armageddon.

In that timeframe when the US-and mostly the UK- was keeping other European countries from getting involved militarily in South American, the South American countries were fighting a bunch of wars of various sizes amoung themselves. There was lots of fighting, it was mostly "internal" SA conflicts with help from friends.

The SLN is described as being wed to the tactics of showing up with overwhelming force and expecting to crush anything that becomes a problem. Not so hard to do when most of you member and protectorate systems and most of the independent ones (unlike Manticore Grayson etc) have nothing larger than perhaps some BCs and most are in the old LAC range or some lighter than BC ships. Sending 25 SLN SDs to a system that has 25 ships up through BC range is going to be that 800lb gorilla routine. Even a system that can field 2 SDs is going to have a very short and bad time against 25 experienced SD crews plus screen.

What has happened now is the SLN removed from it's preceived position of power against all commers. It was also depending on the idea that problems would show up infrequently and is fairly tiny conflicts.
The majority of actual fighting (other than agasint pirates) was really little more than OFS controlled FF units cowing planets that didn't have any real SDFs or putting down rebelions against local forces against their own forces. One SD and screen used to be massive overkill.
Now there are places getting either worried about their neighbors or just thinking about opting our of SL and certainly from OFS/Transtellar or local dictator control and the SLN/FF can't be everywhere at once. They didn't have to worry about being everywhere, just that people KNEW that if they caused a problme the SLN would eventualy show up and "put things right" which meant back to the statis-quo for the SL with a replacement of local leadership after suitable bloodletting if they didn't bow down immeduatly.

Beowulf didn't build up and maintain it's SDF over centuries to be agressive against it's neighbors, it did it because it has a major asset in the Sigma Draconis Terminus with the Manticore Junction and it needed to defend that. That has been mostly Manticore's job but BSDF was there (in system, some around the junction and some out "showing the flag" or just anti-piracey because they needed to demonstrate to anyone with potential designs on the terminus that it was well defended. Keeping at least it's own trade lanes patrolled and pirate free was/is actually too important to be dependent on SLN to do it. Again, its a question of the vermin knowing that the local force was compitent and highly motivated (by demonstrating these things) to do the work rather than some periodic show of force by a very light force of SLN swanning around being mostly decorative (and submitting a bill).

BSDF can - since at least Manticore can and will take up the duty plus position a fleet to assist the system against aggression there- pull all of normally terminus portion of the SDF away from the terminus and hold them within or just around the Beowulf hyper-limit to better deploy for defenceive action.

Beowulf is also pumping out Manticore munitions and RMN spec equipment along with (we presume) the manufacturing equipment to rebuild the Manticore orbital infrastructure. I would guess that some of that muntions and related systems gear (like pods) will be going directly into their own in-system defense structure.

Let me also guess that Beowulf, with the agreement of Manticore, is also letting SL shipping off load cargos to either Manticore or Beowulf merchant marine (with dispensation from Manticore on the "no SL flagged ship through the terminus" order. The shipping charges for using at least the Manticore ships are going to include the normal terminus use fees for the cargo involved- to be paid by the people dropping off the cargo in the vicinity of the Beowulf system.

JeffEngel wrote:Agreed. Assuming that the larger powers don't have support for rival client states leaving them unable or uninterested in stopping some conflicts, of course. I wouldn't be utterly certain in that assumption, but I'd rate the odds at a lot better than even.

Even then, those are powers that have historically been quite good about enforcing the Cherwell Convention. Adopting the orphaned Eridani Edict as their own - and perhaps insisting on it and the signing of the Cherwell Convention as conditions of mutual defense treaties - isn't a much larger step and it should be a very good one for assuring a transition as light in atrocities ("peaceful" isn't on the table) as they can get.

Manticore at least should be in a good position to discover, investigate, and reach out and touch someone in case of EE violations, with the far-flung merchant marine and extensive wormhole connections. (I would not be surprised if Manticore or Beowulf became a new center of interstellar news media as much as Manticore is for finance, based on the information value of the Junction and the new political role either of them will have in the post-League era.) The Congress of Vienna established a pretty fair model of a multi-polar international order that kept some sort of lid on international strife for a good while; I think the SEM, Republic of Haven, Andermani Empire, and the largest League successor states could do that well or better.

That still leaves a lot of room for a lot of awfulness - particularly given how much budget there will be for awfulness, how much the Verge may be out for blood, and how much screwing around the Alignment has left to do. But there is at any rate plenty of reason to hope for something much less bad than armageddon.

I like your example better than mine. The Congress of Vienna basically prevented war in Europe for close to 30 years, and really did not stop working until 1914.

It will likely be interesting to see what happens to the first polity that violates the Eridani Edict after the Solarian League ceases to exist. I would note here that Masada's actions during their previous war with Grayson as described in HotQ appear to have violated the Eridani Edict.

StealthSeeker wrote:In Chapter 35 or ART the Mandarin Kolokoltsov talked about 3 additional system (Strathmore, Kenichi, Galen) that might also vote to exit the SL. Does anybody know if these are close neighboring system of Beowulf?

If so, they would make a nice little 4 system "empire" in the middle of the SL core worlds.

n7axw wrote:IIRC, those were colony worlds of Beowulf at one time. If so there would be logic and perhaps some willingness to implement your idea. Hoever there is no textev to suggest that these systems would not wish to be independent. In that event, perhaps it would be more appropriate to consider some sort of mutual defense arrangements with the GA.

Don

Vince wrote:Your memory is playing tricks on you.

What we know from the text in the Honorverse books states that Beowulf has daughter colonies. The plural form of colony has always been used, so we know there are at least two.

But what we have never been told is exactly how many daughter colonies Beowulf has, their names, locations, and what their relationship is with each other and the mother world.

One other minor addition, IIRC (do not have the text in front of me) Strathmore and Kenichi were two of the SL members that Beowulf was trying to talk with prior to the investigation motion in the Chamber of Stars, which may indicate that they are systems that Beowulf felt close enough to from past interactions to guage their opinions. But Vince is quite right, there is nothing in textev that I remember that says any of them were colonies of Beowulf.

We shall see, eventually.

StealthSeeker wrote:In Chapter 35 or ART the Mandarin Kolokoltsov talked about 3 additional system (Strathmore, Kenichi, Galen) that might also vote to exit the SL. Does anybody know if these are close neighboring system of Beowulf?

If so, they would make a nice little 4 system "empire" in the middle of the SL core worlds.

Strathmore and Kenichi are among the 5 systems that Beowulf talked to prior to the vote, hoping to convince them to vote in favor of Beowulf. All five of those systems are within 35 light-years of Beowulf. Kenichi and Strathmore were the only ones of the 5 that were willing to talk to Beowulf, and Kenichi was nervous about it.

Brigade XO wrote:In that timeframe when the US-and mostly the UK- was keeping other European countries from getting involved militarily in South American, the South American countries were fighting a bunch of wars of various sizes amoung themselves. There was lots of fighting, it was mostly "internal" SA conflicts with help from friends.

The SLN is described as being wed to the tactics of showing up with overwhelming force and expecting to crush anything that becomes a problem. Not so hard to do when most of you member and protectorate systems and most of the independent ones (unlike Manticore Grayson etc) have nothing larger than perhaps some BCs and most are in the old LAC range or some lighter than BC ships. Sending 25 SLN SDs to a system that has 25 ships up through BC range is going to be that 800lb gorilla routine. Even a system that can field 2 SDs is going to have a very short and bad time against 25 experienced SD crews plus screen.

What has happened now is the SLN removed from it's preceived position of power against all commers. It was also depending on the idea that problems would show up infrequently and is fairly tiny conflicts.
The majority of actual fighting (other than agasint pirates) was really little more than OFS controlled FF units cowing planets that didn't have any real SDFs or putting down rebelions against local forces against their own forces. One SD and screen used to be massive overkill.
Now there are places getting either worried about their neighbors or just thinking about opting our of SL and certainly from OFS/Transtellar or local dictator control and the SLN/FF can't be everywhere at once. They didn't have to worry about being everywhere, just that people KNEW that if they caused a problme the SLN would eventualy show up and "put things right" which meant back to the statis-quo for the SL with a replacement of local leadership after suitable bloodletting if they didn't bow down immeduatly.

Beowulf didn't build up and maintain it's SDF over centuries to be agressive against it's neighbors, it did it because it has a major asset in the Sigma Draconis Terminus with the Manticore Junction and it needed to defend that. That has been mostly Manticore's job but BSDF was there (in system, some around the junction and some out "showing the flag" or just anti-piracey because they needed to demonstrate to anyone with potential designs on the terminus that it was well defended. Keeping at least it's own trade lanes patrolled and pirate free was/is actually too important to be dependent on SLN to do it. Again, its a question of the vermin knowing that the local force was compitent and highly motivated (by demonstrating these things) to do the work rather than some periodic show of force by a very light force of SLN swanning around being mostly decorative (and submitting a bill).

BSDF can - since at least Manticore can and will take up the duty plus position a fleet to assist the system against aggression there- pull all of normally terminus portion of the SDF away from the terminus and hold them within or just around the Beowulf hyper-limit to better deploy for defenceive action.

Beowulf is also pumping out Manticore munitions and RMN spec equipment along with (we presume) the manufacturing equipment to rebuild the Manticore orbital infrastructure. I would guess that some of that muntions and related systems gear (like pods) will be going directly into their own in-system defense structure.

Let me also guess that Beowulf, with the agreement of Manticore, is also letting SL shipping off load cargos to either Manticore or Beowulf merchant marine (with dispensation from Manticore on the "no SL flagged ship through the terminus" order. The shipping charges for using at least the Manticore ships are going to include the normal terminus use fees for the cargo involved- to be paid by the people dropping off the cargo in the vicinity of the Beowulf system.

Hi Brigade XO,

Very nice summary. You are right about those SA wars. However what US/UK did accomplish was to prevent any further European empire building on the order of what the French attempted in Mexico.

As for Beowulf, I've wondered if that nice extra large SDF wasn't also a preventative measure against retaliation for some of the BSC's more nefarious activities...

Don