new/old dead horse, futher beating requested

This thread reminds me of an old story about the Battle of Shiloh (US Civil War) fought in a heavily wooded area by mostly inexperienced troops.

A soldier was slightly wounded and ordered by the Captain to the rear. The soldier tried but every direction he went he found fighting. He finally made his way back to his regiment and told the Captain: "Give me my musket back, Sir; this damn figh ain't got no rear."

And this damn thread ain't got no rear--rather, it has 4-5 different arguments, all going on more or less at the same time, 2-3 often occurring in the same post.

I love it.

OK, my turn. Manning (even as 'Trojan Horses') the SL SD's in the Talbott Sector is..unwise. Those systems already have a couple of LAC squadrons deployed, and any pirate who tangles with a division of LAC's is going to regret it...verybriefly.

And 'raiders', be they FF or SDF's or 'renegades', are unlikely to have anything larger than a BC, and SEM LAC's are likely to do a Second Hancock on any stupid enough to close (not mentioning those Mark 16 and perhaps Mark 23 pods that have been dropped off in-system). And if the attackers are to large to defeat, the word will get back to Spindle and the RMN knows how to deal with their enemies (see treecats, dealing with).

I just can't see where a obsolete, resource-sucking SLN SD has any role to play in Talbott except for what can be salvaged and used by the systems (like those pinnaces/shuttles).

Besides, if you need a SD in each Talbott system, there are probably Gryphon and Sphinx-classes in Mothballs, which would be much better tools (and for providing training) for the Talbotteers.

As for Verge/Shell/Protectorate systems, well, if (and that is a very big IF) they have the capability, maintainability, and sustainability (some code words the US Army loves) to handle SD's, and they show a need for them (A Warnecke-like neighbor), then I suppose they could be parceled out.

But I really wonder if that will be the case. I haven't quite made up my mind on that one (some more arguing will probably help).

Anyway, most entertaining thread I've seen here in weeks. Even if the damn fight ain't got no rear...

IMHO always. YMMV.

Just thinking about Lyonheart's and Kzt's idea, it seems to me that there are a couple of subjects going on. The first is security in the Quadrant. That by consensus of the parties involved is primarily the RMN's responsibility. Right now provision for that is with missile pods and modern LACs. While a few SDs in the Montana system might deter trouble makers, after the first time or two someone tests the waters, missiles and LACs will deter just fine. So the SDs really aren't needed for defensive purposes.

Secondly we have the rest of the verge and those systems in the shell and maybe even the core who sign mutual defense agreements with Manticore and the GA. Here, rather than the scarecrow idea, it might make sense to parcel out the SLN SDs along with screening elements at sqadron size to carefully chosen systems whose industrial capacity is sufficient to support and man them in exchange for an agreement to help police the neighborhood. As has been noted upthread, these SDs are no threat to Haven sector navies, but are still effective against everyone else but the Aligmment, which, of course, is a problem the GA is going to have to solve.

As for smaller systems, you scale down what you provide to what they can support. Maybe all a MacIntosh can support is a few LACs and a couple older light crusiers, for example. You also try to tie such systems into the defensive network of the larger neighborhood. What you don't do is provide so much equipment that takes a major portion of their GDP to just keep it in orbit.

As for the scarecrow idea, it just doesn't seem to me to be the best use of the resourses these ships represent. If you are going to actually use these vessels in potential combat situations, then do it in ways and numbers that maximize the possibility of them doing some good.

It may well be that the best thing to do is strip them of everything potentially useful and scrap out the rest. I am not sure.

Don

Another thing, more in response to Lyonheart's proposal, I was casting around for ways that task forces with lighter weapons platforms such as BCs could attack a system with, say, 3 SDs posted as scarecrows. The thought that came to mind was attacking the orbital infrastructure with cee-fractional missiles that would be launched from well beyond the SDs' weapons envelop in such numbers that the SDs' anti- missile defenses would be unable to cope if they could be brought into play at all since those defenses are for defending the ship itself rather than targets not in near proximity to its location.

My problem is I'm not sure what a "cee-fractional" missile is. The reference is to that battle with the Peeps toward the end of "Flag in Exile" when Honor takes her squadron of six SDs out to meet the Peeps because she didn't want them to be able to range on the forts and orbital farms with "cee-fractional" missiles. Does anyone have a better grip on this than I do?

It would seem to me that Grayson's problem at that moment of time would be very similar to anyany planet seeking to defend itself with a limited number of preButtercup SDs.

Don

Hi Don,

Back at the bar I was willing to go where RFC may have been misleading us, given all the suggestions of what to do with the captured SD's, but had it not been for Spindle and Filaretta, the BF SD's would still be considered the best by over 99% of the galaxy's humans, and for most little has changed from the evident slow rate the news is reaching the rest of humanity.

Granted the withdrawal of the MMM has hindered the news spreading but newsies and private ships are allowed to use the GA controlled wormholes, so the news should have 'gone viral' in a month or two, not still evidently unknown nine month's later.

Given the requirement all SL and protectorate if not verge systems are going to have to upgrade their navies, which if only LAC's probably represent only 1/1000 - 1/10,000 of their annual system GDP, so increasing it to even 1% won't be that big of a threat to their economies or government priorities.

Even at M$100M each [too high in my opinion], a hundred LAC's costs only M$10 Billion or around $5 per capita for most verge systems, or barely 1% even at only M$1/person/day, far less than what's been implied in the textev.

Crandall had 24 supply ships full of parts for her 71 SD's, 69 FF ships besides 2 ammunition and 3 repair ships, I've forgotten what Filaretta's support tail was, but spare parts shouldn't be a problem for a while.

While I'd prefer the TQG get old RMN SD's to train on etc, there's been plenty of time to send them and they haven't come yet.

L

n7axw wrote:Just thinking about Lyonheart's and Kzt's idea, it seems to me that there are a couple of subjects going on. The first is security in the Quadrant. That by consensus of the parties involved is primarily the RMN's responsibility. Right now provision for that is with missile pods and modern LACs. While a few SDs in the Montana system might deter trouble makers, after the first time or two someone tests the waters, missiles and LACs will deter just fine. So the SDs really aren't needed for defensive purposes.

Secondly we have the rest of the verge and those systems in the shell and maybe even the core who sign mutual defense agreements with Manticore and the GA. Here, rather than the scarecrow idea, it might make sense to parcel out the SLN SDs along with screening elements at sqadron size to carefully chosen systems whose industrial capacity is sufficient to support and man them in exchange for an agreement to help police the neighborhood. As has been noted upthread, these SDs are no threat to Haven sector navies, but are still effective against everyone else but the Aligmment, which, of course, is a problem the GA is going to have to solve.

As for smaller systems, you scale down what you provide to what they can support. Maybe all a MacIntosh can support is a few LACs and a couple older light crusiers, for example. You also try to tie such systems into the defensive network of the larger neighborhood. What you don't do is provide so much equipment that takes a major portion of their GDP to just keep it in orbit.

As for the scarecrow idea, it just doesn't seem to me to be the best use of the resourses these ships represent. If you are going to actually use these vessels in potential combat situations, then do it in ways and numbers that maximize the possibility of them doing some good.

It may well be that the best thing to do is strip them of everything potentially useful and scrap out the rest. I am not sure.

Don

Thought. We dont know they were captured, and all the info the mandarins have is from manticore thorugh the wormhole. has there been time for any of the ships to travel hyper to get back to the SL, and report back? Because I noted that the mandarins talked about their info being all through the manties, and DW has had hints like that before, leading me to wonder if the supply ships didnt jump out, and are on their way back to sol now, which could prove more embarrassment (and info) when it turns out that the maties did what they sadi, and the mandarins cant claim they modified this loit of evidence..... Assuming the timing is possible that is.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

Back at the bar I was willing to go where RFC may have been misleading us, given all the suggestions of what to do with the captured SD's, but had it not been for Spindle and Filaretta, the BF SD's would still be considered the best by over 99% of the galaxy's humans, and for most little has changed from the evident slow rate the news is reaching the rest of humanity.

Granted the withdrawal of the MMM has hindered the news spreading but newsies and private ships are allowed to use the GA controlled wormholes, so the news should have 'gone viral' in a month or two, not still evidently unknown nine month's later.

Given the requirement all SL and protectorate if not verge systems are going to have to upgrade their navies, which if only LAC's probably represent only 1/1000 - 1/10,000 of their annual system GDP, so increasing it to even 1% won't be that big of a threat to their economies or government priorities.

Even at M$100M each [too high in my opinion], a hundred LAC's costs only M$10 Billion or around $5 per capita for most verge systems, or barely 1% even at only M$1/person/day, far less than what's been implied in the textev.

Crandall had 24 supply ships full of parts for her 71 SD's, 69 FF ships besides 2 ammunition and 3 repair ships, I've forgotten what Filaretta's support tail was, but spare parts shouldn't be a problem for a while.

While I'd prefer the TQG get old RMN SD's to train on etc, there's been plenty of time to send them and they haven't come yet.

L

n7axw wrote:Just thinking about Lyonheart's and Kzt's idea, it seems to me that there are a couple of subjects going on. The first is security in the Quadrant. That by consensus of the parties involved is primarily the RMN's responsibility. Right now provision for that is with missile pods and modern LACs. While a few SDs in the Montana system might deter trouble makers, after the first time or two someone tests the waters, missiles and LACs will deter just fine. So the SDs really aren't needed for defensive purposes.

Secondly we have the rest of the verge and those systems in the shell and maybe even the core who sign mutual defense agreements with Manticore and the GA. Here, rather than the scarecrow idea, it might make sense to parcel out the SLN SDs along with screening elements at sqadron size to carefully chosen systems whose industrial capacity is sufficient to support and man them in exchange for an agreement to help police the neighborhood. As has been noted upthread, these SDs are no threat to Haven sector navies, but are still effective against everyone else but the Aligmment, which, of course, is a problem the GA is going to have to solve.

As for smaller systems, you scale down what you provide to what they can support. Maybe all a MacIntosh can support is a few LACs and a couple older light crusiers, for example. You also try to tie such systems into the defensive network of the larger neighborhood. What you don't do is provide so much equipment that takes a major portion of their GDP to just keep it in orbit.

As for the scarecrow idea, it just doesn't seem to me to be the best use of the resourses these ships represent. If you are going to actually use these vessels in potential combat situations, then do it in ways and numbers that maximize the possibility of them doing some good.

It may well be that the best thing to do is strip them of everything potentially useful and scrap out the rest. I am not sure.

Don

n7axw wrote:...snip...

My problem is I'm not sure what a "cee-fractional" missile is. The reference is to that battle with the Peeps toward the end of "Flag in Exile" when Honor takes her squadron of six SDs out to meet the Peeps because she didn't want them to be able to range on the forts and orbital farms with "cee-fractional" missiles. Does anyone have a better grip on this than I do?

...snip...
Don

It's basically a kinetic weapon. You have a missile that's accelerated to very high speeds and all that kinetic energy is released upon impact. Being hit with a missile that weighs for example 10 tons traveling at .2 cee is bad, as in a ~4400 megaton yield bad.

n7axw wrote:My problem is I'm not sure what a "cee-fractional" missile is. The reference is to that battle with the Peeps toward the end of "Flag in Exile" when Honor takes her squadron of six SDs out to meet the Peeps because she didn't want them to be able to range on the forts and orbital farms with "cee-fractional" missiles. Does anyone have a better grip on this than I do?

"cee-fractional" == moving at a significant fraction of light speed; presumably a big enough fraction of light speed to exhibit relativistic effects on mass and momentum.

That much is obvious.

I would guess that ships need distance to launch cee-fractional missiles because the launch platform has to accelerate to maximum n-space speed (0.8C for warships?) to add launch platform velocity to the missiles' acceleration. Doing so would increase the range of the missiles while still providing some maneuverability left on the drives when they arrive.

FWIW, MDMs can reach cee-fractional speeds (0.7-0.9 C) without needing to launch them at top speed.

Weird Harold wrote:
FWIW, MDMs can reach cee-fractional speeds (0.7-0.9 C) without needing to launch them at top speed.

Which is one reason they're such a bugger to defend against, they cross your CM intercept envelope to quickly you're unlikely to get time to reload your launchers.

Phil, I want to do your TQ idea 1 better.

Give each planet 2 Sphinx SDs from the reserve.

Why – we know Moriarity is coming, the 2 Sphinx can be the control nodes of the system. Gut a midships missile mag in each of them for the computers for Apollo to sit and then cover the missile tubes attached to the bay with the KHII drone emitters/tractors. As for the drones, house them in orbital sheds instead of broadside bays for maintenance.

Then surround them with shoals of 4 drive missile pods

So, you use 80% of the ships as active teaching centers and 20% for the System defenses.

I would guess you could use the Scientists too, but their missile defenses are pathetic- even in comparison to a Sphinx. Perhaps the 1st few installations will be on Scientists and later transition to Sphinx?

.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

Back at the bar I was willing to go where RFC may have been misleading us, given all the suggestions of what to do with the captured SD's, but had it not been for Spindle and Filaretta, the BF SD's would still be considered the best by over 99% of the galaxy's humans, and for most little has changed from the evident slow rate the news is reaching the rest of humanity.

Granted the withdrawal of the MMM has hindered the news spreading but newsies and private ships are allowed to use the GA controlled wormholes, so the news should have 'gone viral' in a month or two, not still evidently unknown nine month's later.

Given the requirement all SL and protectorate if not verge systems are going to have to upgrade their navies, which if only LAC's probably represent only 1/1000 - 1/10,000 of their annual system GDP, so increasing it to even 1% won't be that big of a threat to their economies or government priorities.

Even at M$100M each [too high in my opinion], a hundred LAC's costs only M$10 Billion or around $5 per capita for most verge systems, or barely 1% even at only M$1/person/day, far less than what's been implied in the textev.

Crandall had 24 supply ships full of parts for her 71 SD's, 69 FF ships besides 2 ammunition and 3 repair ships, I've forgotten what Filaretta's support tail was, but spare parts shouldn't be a problem for a while.

While I'd prefer the TQG get old RMN SD's to train on etc, there's been plenty of time to send them and they haven't come yet.

L

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:My problem is I'm not sure what a "cee-fractional" missile is. The reference is to that battle with the Peeps toward the end of "Flag in Exile" when Honor takes her squadron of six SDs out to meet the Peeps because she didn't want them to be able to range on the forts and orbital farms with "cee-fractional" missiles. Does anyone have a better grip on this than I do?

"cee-fractional" == moving at a significant fraction of light speed; presumably a big enough fraction of light speed to exhibit relativistic effects on mass and momentum.

That much is obvious.

I would guess that ships need distance to launch cee-fractional missiles because the launch platform has to accelerate to maximum n-space speed (0.8C for warships?) to add launch platform velocity to the missiles' acceleration. Doing so would increase the range of the missiles while still providing some maneuverability left on the drives when they arrive.

FWIW, MDMs can reach cee-fractional speeds (0.7-0.9 C) without needing to launch them at top speed.

Thanks. Is there an info dump somewhere that provides more detail on this? Thanks though. What you say does make sense.

Don