Back from LA with Honorverse move news

Yes, the very brief nuclear flash and subsequent aura (KE of particles and invisible high energy radiation absorbed by the atmosphere then slowly radiated in the visible spectrum) was visible to observers only 400 km away. IIRC, that test was visible to any observer within line of sight.

We are talking about nuclear explosions that occur at a range of about one Astronomical Unit or >150 MILLION kilometers. The distance is 300,000 times greater. The energy density impinging on the eye is about 1eex-11.

Put the brightness of a nuclear explosion viewed from one AU in perspective by noting that even if 100% of the yield energy is in the visible spectrum, the brightness is comparable to a moon that is 3,000 kilometers in diameter at one AU. Given the probable energy partition, it is more likely to be comparable to a moon only 1,000 kilometer in diameter at one AU. This is almost as difficult as seeing one of the larger asteroids in the asteroid belt. You need a very good telescope to see an asteroid.

If they have Abby watching the battle with her daddy, may be they should have a really big ass telescope probably in the 50cm range.

gamarus wrote:Thank you very much for this intriguing exposition I looked up the high altitude nuclear tests done around 1960 (wikipedia..) and the best fit is probably Starfish Prime, as it's the highest altitude explosion (400km).

Here's an excerpt from the rapport: "At zero time at Johnston, a white flash occurred, but as soon as one could remove his goggles, no intense light was present. A second after shot time a mottled red disc was observed directly overhead and covered the sky down to about 45 degrees from the zenith..." The rapport goes on to describe the intense auroras that followed but that isn't really relevant to us.

It seems the nuclear flash occurs even at an exoatmospheric detonation and is of sufficient duration to be readily observed.

SWM wrote:[continuing the physics calculations]

The limit of detection with the naked eye is an apparent magnitude of 6, but I don't believe you could detect a momentary flash that faint. So let us suppose a detection limit of apparent magnitude 5. That means the explosion would have to be 20 magnitudes brighter, or 1.0e10 times brighter. To do that, we move the explosion 1.0e5 times closer. Absolute magnitude is the apparent magnitude at a distance of 10 parsecs, or 32.6 light-years. Dividing by 1.0e5, we see that the explosion will very briefly be apparent magnitude 5 at a distance of 2.8 light-hours. 10 times closer will be 5 magnitudes brighter (i.e. magnitude 0, as bright as Sirius).

Conclusion: a nuclear explosion 17 light-minutes away might be (very briefly) as bright as Sirius, and potentially visible much further. Very interesting!

Mitigating factors: I'm not sure how long a flash has to be before it is actually detected by the eye. The flash lasts longer than 100 microseconds, of course, but it decays rapidly. I'm not sure exactly how rapidly, and I'm not sure how to model the light-integration of the eye. So this is a big guesstimate here--I easily could be off by several magnitudes brightness.

namelessfly wrote:Yes, the very brief nuclear flash and subsequent aura (KE of particles and invisible high energy radiation absorbed by the atmosphere then slowly radiated in the visible spectrum) was visible to observers only 400 km away. IIRC, that test was visible to any observer within line of sight.

We are talking about nuclear explosions that occur at a range of about one Astronomical Unit or >150 MILLION kilometers. The distance is 300,000 times greater. The energy density impinging on the eye is about 1eex-11.

Put the brightness of a nuclear explosion viewed from one AU in perspective by noting that even if 100% of the yield energy is in the visible spectrum, the brightness is comparable to a moon that is 3,000 kilometers in diameter at one AU.

Honestly not sure how much of a difference it would make (calculations are not my strong point), but remember that the nukes in question are not spherical but shaped charges, focused by grav generators to get the maximum impact on the lasing rods. I'm sure that would affect how bright the explosions were on Grayson.

namelessfly wrote:Put the brightness of a nuclear explosion viewed from one AU in perspective by noting that even if 100% of the yield energy is in the visible spectrum, the brightness is comparable to a moon that is 3,000 kilometers in diameter at one AU. Given the probable energy partition, it is more likely to be comparable to a moon only 1,000 kilometer in diameter at one AU. This is almost as difficult as seeing one of the larger asteroids in the asteroid belt. You need a very good telescope to see an asteroid.

Could you say where you get those figures?

SWM wrote:

namelessfly wrote:Put the brightness of a nuclear explosion viewed from one AU in perspective by noting that even if 100% of the yield energy is in the visible spectrum, the brightness is comparable to a moon that is 3,000 kilometers in diameter at one AU. Given the probable energy partition, it is more likely to be comparable to a moon only 1,000 kilometer in diameter at one AU. This is almost as difficult as seeing one of the larger asteroids in the asteroid belt. You need a very good telescope to see an asteroid.

Could you say where you get those figures?

I have been rereading HotQ. Honor's mission is to intercept Thundrer of God far enough out to prevent it from nuking Grayson with KE strikes. At one point in the battle, Weber specifies that they are making intercept over 150 million kilometers out from Grayson.

If you had the battle within a few light seconds of Grayson, the nuclear explosions would be very spectacular. Thunder of God could then nuke Grayson with energy weapons.

namelessfly wrote:I have been rereading HotQ. Honor's mission is to intercept Thundrer of God far enough out to prevent it from nuking Grayson with KE strikes. At one point in the battle, Weber specifies that they are making intercept over 150 million kilometers out from Grayson.

If you had the battle within a few light seconds of Grayson, the nuclear explosions would be very spectacular. Thunder of God could then nuke Grayson with energy weapons.

No no. You say "if 100% of the yield energy is in the visible spectrum, the brightness is comparable to a moon that is 3,000 kilometers in diameter at one AU." Where do you get those figures? I just ran another calculation that shows it would be between magnitude -4 and -8. That is bright enough to see in broad daylight.

With regards to how to differentiate the various navies I have a few ideas.
Every warship is distorted from the theoretical perfect W-sail vessel. Grayson and Masadan vessels have huge radiators and hyper coils, AC. So they are otherwise relatively close to a spindle with a circular cross-section. Haven has those pyramidal frustum for hammerheads, so the main spindle could be faceted. I'd use an an octagonal cross-section for DDs through CA, 10 sides for the Mars-class, 12 sides for BCs, 14 for BBs and 16 for DNs and SDs. Havenite armor could be visibly on top of a complete hull (shadow effects could make this clear), while Manticoran armor is flush-set when it is not actually part of the hull matrix.

Hi All

Man, there are a bunch of lurkers like me coming out over this.

Been hoping for this for years, almost as much as LOTR. If this is half as successful I will be very happy.

Now for a number of comments:

1. Nimitz being introduced.

Take advantage of the opportunity. You see a Frisbee floating through a gym being caught by human “A“. Human A turns and throws to Human B. B throws to human C who has difficulty both catching it and throwing it.

Surprise ! A wobbling Frisbee is nimbly snatched by Nimitz. Surprise! Nimitz spins and zaps it to A. A to B. B to C. C throws it poorly forcing Nimitz to over extend, crash into a wall and dislocates a finger toe. This allows for concerned dialog between crew and Nimitz. Nimitz semi-rudely shrugs off an offer of being carried to sick bay. Nimitz walks to the door, punches the open button, exits to a crowded hall. He walks as an accepted member of the crew to an elevator. Enters and controls it so as to get to sick bay. He walks into sickbay and hops on to a treatment table and screeches politely. More inter action with people.

“This is going to hurt when I set this. Do you want a pain shot?” Negative reaction from Nimitz. Close up of those long claws sinking into the mattress. This is followed by a call to HH. Answered by her Steward. Followed by HH walking into Sickbay. Easy set up to show the close ties and ability to interact as sentient. Follows cannon as Nimitz was moving about on his own when meeting his love in the ship hydro section in a later book. 3 min screen time?

2 Watching the battle above Grayson

Grayson might be written as a backward neobarb place. I hope we achieve their tech level in the next hundred years. Do not see it happening much sooner. Grayson has many orbiting platforms, hundreds of ships, astro-belt stations, and more. Each and every one with sensors. Then they have a whole naval establishment charged with defending the planet. I think they might have a sensor or two watching.
Everyone on the planet would be glued to their TV watching dozens of channels showing hundreds of feeds of the battle. There would be expert commentary. Live prayer channels with this in the background.

Naked eye, why? Where would you be if that was on the tube?

3 Fast paced battle scenes.

How many times are we given fast paced, intense major battles via simulator? Some are hundreds of years old, used as study aids. The battle from OBS would be a good one to time squeeze with survivor commentary being given in person to the doubtful Grayson staff.

Later, Grayson command would have a display showing the current battle at any scale wanted. Different feeds showing command decks. Fast paced chatter between stations and cutting back and forth between ships would time shift everything down to the short attention span needed for the screen.

Sorry if I step on any other toes here.



Just pulled my 1994 copy of OBS off the shelf, to be read starting tonight.

Mr. Weber Thanks for many good hours and thoughts. I hope this movie makes you proud!

RavenHawk wrote:On the subject of differentiating the ships nationality, one thing to think about is the tech level and professionalism of the construction yards.

RoM: Highly advanced tech base with very professional and motivated shipyards. The tech base means their ships can be "sleeker" for want of a better term. As well as more finished. Their welding technology and the professionalism of the welders could mean welds so smooth that even at arms length you would have a hard time spotting the weld. So close range shots of the ships (say they fill the screen) the hulls would look absolutely smooth. The ships would also have something close to an organic look.

PRoH: Tech not quit as good as RoM, and a labor force that doesn't really care from what I can tell. Welding technology almost as good, but with the lack of care for the finished product, the welds would be obvious (which isn't bad on it's own) and sloppy looking. From a distance, there would be a faint grid of lines on the surface of the ship (which could also help to define size).

Greyson/Masada: Low tech (relatively speaking), and Greyson has a fairly skilled and motivated space industry (I'm including Masada in this entry by giving their space industry the benefit of the doubt. Not enough was really written about their work ethic to go one way or the other). Their space welding may be inefficient enough that they rivet their hulls together. I actually doubt this is the case, but it would visually point out how "backward" these "fission using neobarbs" are (steampunk without the steam)

Just my two cents

Actually in Honor of the Queen, Honor mentioned as they went in system the first time that she saw evidence of riveting going on.

From a cosmetic point of view to display tech imbalances I think using the hulls, even if it tinkers a bit with cannon make perfect sens. Here I think Raven is spot on.

Manticore - Sleek hulls with no signs of plating ect.

Haven - Hulls that are a bit more blockey, lines for armor plating evident and some uneven spots in the paint as far as coloring goes.

Masada / Grayson - Very blocky / functional hulls with armor plating and rivets shown. I think weapons bays, radar and gravitic arrays would be bigger. So fewer weapoons taking up more space indicating a lack of technology. A good example of this is look at the USS Arizona (BB-39) vs the USS Washington (BB-56). Both have a similar look but there is no way to miss the advances from one to the other.

Now for the difference of Masadan vs Grayson warships compare the USS Arizona to the Russian Gangut class. Both were built within a couple of years of each other but look totally different.

SWM wrote:

namelessfly wrote:I have been rereading HotQ. Honor's mission is to intercept Thundrer of God far enough out to prevent it from nuking Grayson with KE strikes. At one point in the battle, Weber specifies that they are making intercept over 150 million kilometers out from Grayson.

If you had the battle within a few light seconds of Grayson, the nuclear explosions would be very spectacular. Thunder of God could then nuke Grayson with energy weapons.

No no. You say "if 100% of the yield energy is in the visible spectrum, the brightness is comparable to a moon that is 3,000 kilometers in diameter at one AU." Where do you get those figures? I just ran another calculation that shows it would be between magnitude -4 and -8. That is bright enough to see in broad daylight.

Astronomical observations are not my strong point so I am not conversant with equating apparent magnitude to a particular power density nor am I into biology enough to know what thevsensitivity of the eye is. However; I'll muddle through.

At what range are you referring to?

A common, 1 MT nuke yields 4.2eex15 J by definition. Assume this energy is releases as light for a duration of one second so the power is then 4eex15 Watts. Now compare to other, natural astronomical bodies that reflect about 4eex15 Watts of sunlight. At one AU out system from
Grayson, the solar constant would be about 700 Watts/M^2. 4eex15W / 700 W/M^2 = 6eex12M^2 or a body on the order of 3,000 Km in diameter.

We can quibble over the probable yield of the laser heads (these were not Mk-16s), the flash duration (briefer = brighter), the energy partition (more energy as Neutrons, Nuclei, Gamma rays, X-rays, UV, IR and microwaves = dimmer) and a host of other details, but this puts the issue in perspective.

namelessfly wrote:Astronomical observations are not my strong point so I am not conversant with equating apparent magnitude to a particular power density nor am I into biology enough to know what thevsensitivity of the eye is. However; I'll muddle through.

At what range are you referring to?

A common, 1 MT nuke yields 4.2eex15 J by definition. Assume this energy is releases as light for a duration of one second so the power is then 4eex15 Watts. Now compare to other, natural astronomical bodies that reflect about 4eex15 Watts of sunlight. At one AU out system from
Grayson, the solar constant would be about 700 Watts/M^2. 4eex15W / 700 W/M^2 = 6eex12M^2 or a body on the order of 3,000 Km in diameter.

We can quibble over the probable yield of the laser heads (these were not Mk-16s), the flash duration (briefer = brighter), the energy partition (more energy as Neutrons, Nuclei, Gamma rays, X-rays, UV, IR and microwaves = dimmer) and a host of other details, but this puts the issue in perspective.

I see. I also assumed a 1 Megaton explosion (4e15 Joules), but I used 1 millisecond rather than 1 second. And I also assumed a distance to the explosion of 1 AU. If I use your time of 1 second, then the apparent magnitude of the explosion would be between 2 and -2, still very easily visible. The brightest star, Sirius, has an apparent magnitude of 0.

Your calculation does not actually represent the brightness of a planet 3000 km in diameter. What your calculations are actually saying is that the explosion would look like a flat mirror 3000 km in diameter reflecting sunlight at a distance of 1 AU. That is many, many times brighter than a spherical planet of similar size.