?

penny wrote:Could a bubblewall encompass an LD? I am not certain whether a bubblewall restricts acceleration, but why should acceleration be as important for something that can not be detected?

An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. That fact is used ruthlessly in the HV in the manner of ballistic missiles. If a bubble wall can be activated and deactivated quickly, then an LD should be able to tactically operate under those constraints. Certainly considering that it is hidden and the enemy does not know of this drawback.

And can we assume a bubblewall affects the spider drive anyway?

Yes a bubble wall should be able to surround an LD -- they can surround forts which should be at least as large.

But there are two issues with doing so - one of which Mission of Honor spells out explicitely.

1) Yes, the bubblewall affects the spider drive -- in that it prevent the drive from operating while the bubble wall is up. "And just to make matters even more interesting, the spider drive could not be used through a spherical sidewall like the ones fortresses generated." [MoH - Ch.28]
So yes, you'd be coasting in a straight line with the sidewall up; unable to manouver except with your reaction thrusters (assuming an LD mounts those)

2) You're no longer indivisible. A bubblewall is a sphere of stressed artificial gravity and will show up on FTL Warshaski detectors. Not from as long range as a wedge will; it is far less powerful after all. But still it's vastly more visible than the spider ship itself is.

Thus raising a bubblewall (presuming the LD did spend the massive volume a generator for one requires[1]) would be an act of desperation as it'd leave the LD exposed and unable to hide or maneuver. It might help it weather a single attack -- but it'd make it a sitting duck for follow up salvos.

----
[1] Remember, a bubblewall generator is so large volume that 8-9 Mton SDs find the loss of combat power required to squeeze them in unjustified; despite the near insurmountable advantage a bubblewall would given then if ever forced into combat within a grav wave

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Could a bubblewall encompass an LD? I am not certain whether a bubblewall restricts acceleration, but why should acceleration be as important for something that can not be detected?

An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. That fact is used ruthlessly in the HV in the manner of ballistic missiles. If a bubble wall can be activated and deactivated quickly, then an LD should be able to tactically operate under those constraints. Certainly considering that it is hidden and the enemy does not know of this drawback.

And can we assume a bubblewall affects the spider drive anyway?

Yes a bubble wall should be able to surround an LD -- they can surround forts which should be at least as large.

But there are two issues with doing so - one of which Mission of Honor spells out explicitely.

1) Yes, the bubblewall affects the spider drive -- in that it prevent the drive from operating while the bubble wall is up. "And just to make matters even more interesting, the spider drive could not be used through a spherical sidewall like the ones fortresses generated." [MoH - Ch.28]
So yes, you'd be coasting in a straight line with the sidewall up; unable to manouver except with your reaction thrusters (assuming an LD mounts those)

2) You're no longer indivisible. A bubblewall is a sphere of stressed artificial gravity and will show up on FTL Warshaski detectors. Not from as long range as a wedge will; it is far less powerful after all. But still it's vastly more visible than the spider ship itself is.

Thus raising a bubblewall (presuming the LD did spend the massive volume a generator for one requires[1]) would be an act of desperation as it'd leave the LD exposed and unable to hide or maneuver. It might help it weather a single attack -- but it'd make it a sitting duck for follow up salvos.

----
[1] Remember, a bubblewall generator is so large volume that 8-9 Mton SDs find the loss of combat power required to squeeze them in unjustified; despite the near insurmountable advantage a bubblewall would given then if ever forced into combat within a grav wave

Thanks. I didn't know whether the drive could be operated through a bubblewall.

But, from the range that Honor was tossing missiles, I didn't think a bubblewall could be detected. And even if it is, will follow up salvos maintain a lock on the LD if it "dives," ... drops the bubblewall and once again activates the spider drive?

penny wrote:But, from the range that Honor was tossing missiles, I didn't think a bubblewall could be detected. And even if it is, will follow up salvos maintain a lock on the LD if it "dives," ... drops the bubblewall and once again activates the spider drive?

Maybe not from Honors Ship, but definitely by the GhostRiders, which got much closer.

penny wrote:But, from the range that Honor was tossing missiles, I didn't think a bubblewall could be detected. And even if it is, will follow up salvos maintain a lock on the LD if it "dives," ... drops the bubblewall and once again activates the spider drive?

markusschaber wrote:Maybe not from Honors Ship, but definitely by the GhostRiders, which got much closer.

Firstly, why would a shark-drive ship ever put up a bubble wall if the enemy was not in energy weapon range? Doing so makes it visible and kills the ability to maneuver, so why was the GA ship firing missiles blindly before the bubble was up?

Secondly, despite dropping the bubble wall, if there were nearby Ghostrider drones, then they could rotate going active to keep the ship visible without letting it locate any drone precisely enough to blast it. In fact, if they have it surrounded, then they can locate it by the heat signature alone, without going active.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:But, from the range that Honor was tossing missiles, I didn't think a bubblewall could be detected. And even if it is, will follow up salvos maintain a lock on the LD if it "dives," ... drops the bubblewall and once again activates the spider drive?

markusschaber wrote:Maybe not from Honors Ship, but definitely by the GhostRiders, which got much closer.

Firstly, why would a shark-drive ship ever put up a bubble wall if the enemy was not in energy weapon range? Doing so makes it visible and kills the ability to maneuver, so why was the GA ship firing missiles blindly before the bubble was up?

Secondly, despite dropping the bubble wall, if there were nearby Ghostrider drones, then they could rotate going active to keep the ship visible without letting it locate any drone precisely enough to blast it. In fact, if they have it surrounded, then they can locate it by the heat signature alone, without going active.

I will assume that with shark-drive you meant spider-drive?

As far as the blindly fired missiles, ask several different people in the Attacking Darius thread why they think that would be a worthwhile tactic. Desperation on the part of the GA is all I can come up with. Perhaps Thinksmarkedly will chime in. He is big on the use of this tactic.

I can also come up with other reasons an LD might raise the bubblewall without having an enemy fleet in range. Perhaps it detects armed GA drones in vast numbers, yada yada yada. You also still remain unable to imagine a situation that has progressed far beyond the opening engagement of a battle.

You are still assuming GA drones will remain undetected and unable to be destroyed by the MA. And you may be right, but I do not. If so, LDs could be in a world of trouble..

Anyone know how many GA drones could be deployed by Home Fleet?

penny wrote:I will assume that with shark-drive you meant spider-drive?

As far as the blindly fired missiles, ask several different people in the Attacking Darius thread why they think that would be a worthwhile tactic. Desperation on the part of the GA is all I can come up with. Perhaps Thinksmarkedly will chime in. He is big on the use of this tactic.

I can also come up with other reasons an LD might raise the bubblewall without having an enemy fleet in range. Perhaps it detects armed GA drones in vast numbers, yada yada yada. You also still remain unable to imagine a situation that has progressed far beyond the opening engagement of a battle.

You are still assuming GA drones will remain undetected and unable to be destroyed by the MA. And you may be right, but I do not. If so, LDs could be in a world of trouble.

Yes, I meant spider-drive; but I will leave that alone since the mistake should be obvious.

I do not expect the bubble-wall will come up unless missiles are fired in the correct direction. We will have to wait see if there are people who think missiles should be fired randomly.

I can imagine a ship raising a bubble-wall well after the beginning of an engagement, since it allows weapon ports; what I do not understand is raising at the beginning when the ship is still invisible.

I expect that Galton has stealth and detection as good as the Malign could create and it was also a big source of experimentation for any improvements. So once that is examined by the Grand Alliance, there will be a period where detection is very difficult.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I will assume that with shark-drive you meant spider-drive?

As far as the blindly fired missiles, ask several different people in the Attacking Darius thread why they think that would be a worthwhile tactic. Desperation on the part of the GA is all I can come up with. Perhaps Thinksmarkedly will chime in. He is big on the use of this tactic.

I can also come up with other reasons an LD might raise the bubblewall without having an enemy fleet in range. Perhaps it detects armed GA drones in vast numbers, yada yada yada. You also still remain unable to imagine a situation that has progressed far beyond the opening engagement of a battle.

You are still assuming GA drones will remain undetected and unable to be destroyed by the MA. And you may be right, but I do not. If so, LDs could be in a world of trouble.

Yes, I meant spider-drive; but I will leave that alone since the mistake should be obvious.

I do not expect the bubble-wall will come up unless missiles are fired in the correct direction. We will have to wait see if there are people who think missiles should be fired randomly.

I can imagine a ship raising a bubble-wall well after the beginning of an engagement, since it allows weapon ports; what I do not understand is raising at the beginning when the ship is still invisible.

I expect that Galton has stealth and detection as good as the Malign could create and it was also a big source of experimentation for any improvements. So once that is examined by the Grand Alliance, there will be a period where detection is very difficult.

Yes, the correct direction. And perhaps even with a spread pattern that resembles more of the widely dispersed arrangement of SL missiles. I think the tightly packed formation of GA missiles will blunt the effectiveness of blindly fired "beater" launches forcing the prey out of the "forest."

You know, that would be more like playing the game Battleship. Blindly firing. I wonder how far apart each of Apollo's brood of missiles can be. I can just hear Honor. 'Get those Apollo missiles spread out farther.'

I also wonder if battles with the MA will see GA drones deployed at their maximum acceleration. Leading to wonder if the maximum, or higher, accelerations are less effective at finding a needle in a haystack. Or even the haystack against non MA opponents.

penny wrote:As far as the blindly fired missiles, ask several different people in the Attacking Darius thread why they think that would be a worthwhile tactic. Desperation on the part of the GA is all I can come up with. Perhaps Thinksmarkedly will chime in. He is big on the use of this tactic.

No, I'm big on NOT using this tactic. I would ask the same question tlb did: why did they put themselves in a position where they would even need this? Raising bubblewalls or firing ship-borne energy weapons should be a Gone To Hell plan. That means there were already several events prior to this point, many of which can probably be described as mistakes by the ship's CO, to have created the necessary conditions.

BTW, I don't think the bubblewalls are that weak: any active wedge or bubblewall should be visible within a light-hour radius by any good warship gravitic sensors.

I can also come up with other reasons an LD might raise the bubblewall without having an enemy fleet in range. Perhaps it detects armed GA drones in vast numbers, yada yada yada. You also still remain unable to imagine a situation that has progressed far beyond the opening engagement of a battle.

That only confirms the potential detection those drones may have had, because the ship would be visible. I think that's a definitely wrong solution, though: the ship should continue to manoeuvre with acceleration to try and shake the drones' pursuit. They may fail to do so, but at least they're trying. If they raise the wall, they're both much more visible and much more predictable.

I can only see two conditions for raising any kind of wall:

One, the ship was a few minutes anyway from the hyperlimit and the hypergenerator was already charging. Then it could blow raspberries.

Or two, there are missiles closing in to attack it. Since it has no wedge, bubblewalls may be the only option it has to even survive. The wall may fail and it can take damage, even be destroyed, but that beats the certainty of being destroyed if it doesn't.

You are still assuming GA drones will remain undetected and unable to be destroyed by the MA. And you may be right, but I do not. If so, LDs could be in a world of trouble..

That doesn't mean it evades detection. The smart act by the GA CO would be to have only one or two drones within energy range; all the rest should be further out and would take up the role of being close to retain a lock on the LD. Every time the LD shoots a drone, a) one other takes up the role, and b) provides more data that is much more distinct from noise about the ship itself.

Even if the ship then manages to shoot down all drones that were dogging it, and assuming there were other replacement ones nearby, the shot itself provides data on the location and velocity of the shooter. So other drones can be dispatched and will arrive within half an hour or so, which is a rather short time for the LD to disappear completely. It beats not shooting the drone that has definitely locked on, but if you don't know that it has, it might be a good idea to pretend you weren't detected. Game theory.

Anyone know how many GA drones could be deployed by Home Fleet?

Several thousands. And they wouldn't come from Home Fleet, but from everywhere in the system, including the forts that didn't participate in the Battle of Manticore.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:As far as the blindly fired missiles, ask several different people in the Attacking Darius thread why they think that would be a worthwhile tactic. Desperation on the part of the GA is all I can come up with. Perhaps Thinksmarkedly will chime in. He is big on the use of this tactic.

No, I'm big on NOT using this tactic. I would ask the same question tlb did: why did they put themselves in a position where they would even need this? Raising bubblewalls or firing ship-borne energy weapons should be a Gone To Hell plan. That means there were already several events prior to this point, many of which can probably be described as mistakes by the ship's CO, to have created the necessary conditions.

BTW, I don't think the bubblewalls are that weak: any active wedge or bubblewall should be visible within a light-hour radius by any good warship gravitic sensors.

I can also come up with other reasons an LD might raise the bubblewall without having an enemy fleet in range. Perhaps it detects armed GA drones in vast numbers, yada yada yada. You also still remain unable to imagine a situation that has progressed far beyond the opening engagement of a battle.

That only confirms the potential detection those drones may have had, because the ship would be visible. I think that's a definitely wrong solution, though: the ship should continue to manoeuvre with acceleration to try and shake the drones' pursuit. They may fail to do so, but at least they're trying. If they raise the wall, they're both much more visible and much more predictable.

I can only see two conditions for raising any kind of wall:

One, the ship was a few minutes anyway from the hyperlimit and the hypergenerator was already charging. Then it could blow raspberries.

Or two, there are missiles closing in to attack it. Since it has no wedge, bubblewalls may be the only option it has to even survive. The wall may fail and it can take damage, even be destroyed, but that beats the certainty of being destroyed if it doesn't.

You are still assuming GA drones will remain undetected and unable to be destroyed by the MA. And you may be right, but I do not. If so, LDs could be in a world of trouble..

That doesn't mean it evades detection. The smart act by the GA CO would be to have only one or two drones within energy range; all the rest should be further out and would take up the role of being close to retain a lock on the LD. Every time the LD shoots a drone, a) one other takes up the role, and b) provides more data that is much more distinct from noise about the ship itself.

Even if the ship then manages to shoot down all drones that were dogging it, and assuming there were other replacement ones nearby, the shot itself provides data on the location and velocity of the shooter. So other drones can be dispatched and will arrive within half an hour or so, which is a rather short time for the LD to disappear completely. It beats not shooting the drone that has definitely locked on, but if you don't know that it has, it might be a good idea to pretend you weren't detected. Game theory.

Anyone know how many GA drones could be deployed by Home Fleet?

Several thousands. And they wouldn't come from Home Fleet, but from everywhere in the system, including the forts that didn't participate in the Battle of Manticore.

I also wanted to know to be able to reference Grand Fleet's loadout.

What does anyone suppose will be the contingency plan for the MA's g-torps, Hastas, etc., that are nearing their maximum time to loiter? Do they try and sneak to the edge of the system to detonate? Seems risky to try and sneak out after sneaking in.

penny wrote:What does anyone suppose will be the contingency plan for the MA's g-torps, Hastas, etc., that are nearing their maximum time to loiter? Do they try and sneak to the edge of the system to detonate? Seems risky to try and sneak out after sneaking in.

The Silver Bullets are the only ones that we know can actually loiter.

If you plan to blow them up, then it does not matter; since it will attract a lot of attention wherever you do it. To avoid attention you either fly them into the local star or move them to a point to recharge or be picked up. Make sure that they have enough intelligence to blow up and destroy any enemy that comes too close, even if it is just a shuttle; since you do not want them examined.