Last use for SL SD captured

saber964 wrote:The Haven sector doesn't have to give away its tech per say it just has to provide adequate protection for it new friends like the Kingdom of Meyers and the Madras sector. First they don't have to provide first rate equipment like Sag-C class or Shrike-B class ships, they could supply Star Knight class and Shrike class ships for that matter why not turn over some of Thurgoods captured light forces. I'm sure that War Harvest and Gladiator class ships will be more than adequate for most pirates and if the SLN should send in heavy units. The RMN will be more than happy to send them packing with their tails firmly between the legs.

Providing modern ships isn't necessary for defensive purposes. A minimum defensive installation that isn't hyper capable in any aspect is adequate for most successor states.

I believe Thurgood's ships and personnel were turned over to the Kingdom of Meyer for whatever disposition the Kingdom decided on. There was a hint, IIRC, that Thurgood was amenable to becoming the Kingdom's CNO.

The rest of the Madras sector hasn't been offered any treaties with the GA yet -- I don't think the Kingdom of Meyer has either for that matter. What they'll be offered in the way of Military Assistance is an open question; probably a basic missiles and LACs package of the RHN surplus variety.

As for the RMN sending a force of SLN heavies packing ...

See my previous post about manpower and ship availability problems.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:But Manticore clearly still have/had capacitor birds because one of the options to 'modernize' the Andermani wallers was to reload the Andermani pods with Manty capacitor birds because IAN fusion birds were both bulkier and lower performance than Manty capacitor birds. If they had enough missiles to load possibly load thousands of IAN pods with capacitor birds, they could probably still be sitting on large stockpiles to export to former League members.

One minor correction; I don't believe the IAN cracked microfusion tech. Their SD(P)s fired dual drive capacitor powered missiles that were larger than Manticore's 3 drive capacitor powered birds.

They didn't get far enough to do fusion-powered missiles, but they got a lot farther down that tech tree than anyone who didn't get specs direct from Manticore. They had FTL comm in recon drones. Which Haven couldn't do, and the SLN believed (at least prior to explicit evidence otherwise) was outright impossible due to power limitations.

David mentioned that the Andis didn't have a Mk23 production line, but post OB they got a complete set of plans and a technical contact team to help them build one.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:But if I am not mistaken most of the fixed and heavy mobile defences in Alizon and Zanzibar were manned by Manticore or Grayson.

Under the direct command of the ranking local naval officer...

Which is another aspect of Manticore's historic behavior with those who it makes treaties with that you choose to ignore.

Alizon and Zanzibar also got technical assistance in the form of shipyard improvements and contracts to build light combatants. A feature that may or may not be part of treaties with former League members.

Those pieces of equipment weather they are missile pods or LAC's were (1)under physical control of Manticore and Grayson officers and (2)used in the defence of Alizon and Zanzibar, 2 nations that had nowhere to go but to Manticore since their other option was to become a part of the People's Republic.

There is a slight difference between a minor nation that looks up to you as the senior partner and one that has until a few months ago belonged to what they perceived as the biggest, strongest, most affluent and culturally dominating nation in human history. True, a single system no longer has that at their back but ultimately at least for a long while they would still view Manticore and Haven as neobarbs from the backwoods.


And one more thing, when those nations you want to donate equipment and ships to have a fleet of 20 or 30 LAC's and maybe a destroyer or two, what kind of contribution to the war effort do you see? They have neither the infrastructure, manpower, logistics nor experience to be a net contributor to the war effort and don't forget that they most likely wont be interested in fighting the League.

And more to the point, how many of those nations will show interest in fighting the League?

When an alliance is at such a disadvantage as the GA in terms of industrial potential and human potential surrendering one of their biggest advantages seems like a recipe for disaster.

Weird Harold wrote:
As for the RMN sending a force of SLN heavies packing ...

See my previous post about manpower and ship availability problems.

If I am not mistaken, the goal that the GA has in mind is to get Haven and Beowulf as close to Manticoran standards of equipment as possible. Hell, even a Havenite SD(P) will still send the SLN packing. Haven's navy was estimated to amass a fleet of over 1200 SD(P)'s 2-3 years after resumption of hostilities, even accounting for around 400 SD(P)'s that were lost in battle before the BoM and during BoM that still leaves 800 SD(P)'s in active service or shortly to enter active service. Each Havenite SD(P) is many times more powerful than its SLN counterpart. Combined with Manticore, and Grayson SD(P)'s not to mention the Andermani because even though not actually members of the GA they will coordinate and if necessary protect the alliance and it's interest.

So the GA and it's clandestine allies may have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,200 SD(P)'s not counting the 500-600 Regular SD's that they have left which are still superior to SLN SD's.


The GA has more than enough ships to finish off the SLN and provide some degree of security in high risk systems.

drothgery wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:One minor correction; I don't believe the IAN cracked microfusion tech. Their SD(P)s fired dual drive capacitor powered missiles that were larger than Manticore's 3 drive capacitor powered birds.

They didn't get far enough to do fusion-powered missiles, but they got a lot farther down that tech tree than anyone who didn't get specs direct from Manticore. They had FTL comm in recon drones. Which Haven couldn't do, and the SLN believed (at least prior to explicit evidence otherwise) was outright impossible due to power limitations.

the SLN didn't believe FTL comms were possible to build into anything smaller than waller, not just power limitations. And until they run into RMN forces that use it, they still tend to dismiss even the chance of the "not invented here" is not applicable.

kzt wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Capacitor MDM's in pods designed for system defense and LAC's are both better than Frontier Fleet can really fight, and utterly dirt cheap. Which is frankly why the Janacek Admiralty went overboard trying to put only LAC's and system defense MDM's emplacements everywhere. The only differences would be Manticore was putting all up fusion birds into place to protect Alizon and Zanzibar.

No, notice how their most important forward deployed base didn't have MDMs.

Nope, because those forward bases weren't intended to be bastions. They were intentionally treated as tripwires, places like Alizon, Zanzibar, Grendlesbane.... you know, real estate that Manticore HAD to hold all had heavy MDM and LAC forces for primary defenses.

kzt wrote:

But Manticore clearly still have/had capacitor birds because one of the options to 'modernize' the Andermani wallers was to reload the Andermani pods with Manty capacitor birds because IAN fusion birds were both bulkier and lower performance than Manty capacitor birds. If they had enough missiles to load possibly load thousands of IAN pods with capacitor birds, they could probably still be sitting on large stockpiles to export to former League members.

No, they were stored at their main naval bases to reload their fleets. They blowed up real good along with the the bases.

Other than a million plus Mk23 pods Manticore is desperately short of missiles.

We don't actually have evidence that outdated capacitor missiles were stored at the same stations. We also know that the ONLY missiles that Hamish, Elizabeth, Willie, and Honor discussed in their meeting post-Yawata Strike were the fusion powered ones, Mk 16's, Mk 23's and Mk 23-E. No mention included the capacitor birds, nor did they even notionally consider them.


So technically, it could go either way, that yes all their birds blew up good with the other more modern missiles, or that the older capacitor birds were in some equivalent of hazmat bunkers but weren't considered powerful enough to arm 8th/10th fleets let alone Home Fleet.

After all, they do have smaller warheads, and a much smaller engagement range than the Mk 23's. Would you have offered up using the old capacitor birds if you were in the Alexander Admiralty as an analayst, I sure would not have... but I may have suggested it for Verge and Shell defenses if it came up.

Sigs wrote:If I am not mistaken, the goal that the GA has in mind is to get Haven and Beowulf as close to Manticoran standards of equipment as possible. Hell, even a Havenite SD(P) will still send the SLN packing. Haven's navy was estimated to amass a fleet of over 1200 SD(P)'s 2-3 years after resumption of hostilities, even accounting for around 400 SD(P)'s that were lost in battle before the BoM and during BoM that still leaves 800 SD(P)'s in active service or shortly to enter active service. Each Havenite SD(P) is many times more powerful than its SLN counterpart. Combined with Manticore, and Grayson SD(P)'s not to mention the Andermani because even though not actually members of the GA they will coordinate and if necessary protect the alliance and it's interest.

So the GA and it's clandestine allies may have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,200 SD(P)'s not counting the 500-600 Regular SD's that they have left which are still superior to SLN SD's.


The GA has more than enough ships to finish off the SLN and provide some degree of security in high risk systems.

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers, but Haven most certainly did not have 1200 SD(P)s.

Duckk wrote:

Sigs wrote:If I am not mistaken, the goal that the GA has in mind is to get Haven and Beowulf as close to Manticoran standards of equipment as possible. Hell, even a Havenite SD(P) will still send the SLN packing. Haven's navy was estimated to amass a fleet of over 1200 SD(P)'s 2-3 years after resumption of hostilities, even accounting for around 400 SD(P)'s that were lost in battle before the BoM and during BoM that still leaves 800 SD(P)'s in active service or shortly to enter active service. Each Havenite SD(P) is many times more powerful than its SLN counterpart. Combined with Manticore, and Grayson SD(P)'s not to mention the Andermani because even though not actually members of the GA they will coordinate and if necessary protect the alliance and it's interest.

So the GA and it's clandestine allies may have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,200 SD(P)'s not counting the 500-600 Regular SD's that they have left which are still superior to SLN SD's.


The GA has more than enough ships to finish off the SLN and provide some degree of security in high risk systems.

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers, but Haven most certainly did not have 1200 SD(P)s.

Wasent the whole theme of the second war that Haven had in commission, working up or would shortly have 1,200 SD(P)'s which meant that they would significantly outnumber the Manticore Alliance in total hulls?

I believe that the estimates in 1919 were that Haven had over 300 SD(P)'s in commission and a few hundred more estimated in Bolthole and another few hundred in their other yards.

They no longer have those 1,200 SD(P) because of Battle of Manticore and a few battles before hand but they should have them in full commission, working up or near final stages of completion.

If I am not mistaken the hope from the Manticore was that Haven would not have the means to finish all of those SD(P)'s.

AAC, Chapter 54:

"We'll have a total of just over six hundred and twenty SD(P)s in commission at that point," Theisman told her. "There'll be another three hundred or so older superdreadnoughts to support them, although by that point we'll be decommissioning the older ships steadily to provide crews for the new construction."