Honor awakened a sleeping GIANT

Brigade XO wrote:How many of the SL bureaucracy are going to face (and hopefully be convicted) of various crimes against AT LEAST THE SL, and both punished and never be allowed to hold such positions (elected or appointed) is an open question and one that will have significant impact on the functioning of the New Constitution.

Because almost all of the League bureaucracy came from Old Earth. All the Mandarins were Earth natives, Kolokoltsov was from Siberia for example.

That's actually one of the reasons I partially think the rest of the League splinters might kick Earth out... it was exclusively unelected bureaucrats from Earth that got the League in the war with Manticore. If the rest kicked Earth out of the League, the remaining members may try to wheedle better deals from Manticore because 'they' weren't responsible, nor could they have truly done anything when "it was all Earth's fault".


Manticore may consider deals on Junction fees and what not, as part and parcel of ensuring the League 2.0 wants to stay friendly with them, and/or to start putting the Manticoran Merchant Marine back to work.

I'm not saying Manticore will offer "most favored nation" status like Beowulf or now Haven have, but they may offer something like 10% off total fees or some such. As a small gesture to rebuild the goodwill they had prior to blockading all wormholes and pulling all their freighters home in the first place.

*I* certainly wouldn't let Manticoran freighters simply come back to hauling cargos in or out of my system like they'd done nothing wrong without something in return. And the smallest gesture Manticore could make would be 50 years of a slightly discounted Junction fee, anything else was negotiated between Manticoran Cartels and systems directly.

Somtaaw wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:How many of the SL bureaucracy are going to face (and hopefully be convicted) of various crimes against AT LEAST THE SL, and both punished and never be allowed to hold such positions (elected or appointed) is an open question and one that will have significant impact on the functioning of the New Constitution.

Because almost all of the League bureaucracy came from Old Earth. All the Mandarins were Earth natives, Kolokoltsov was from Siberia for example.

That's actually one of the reasons I partially think the rest of the League splinters might kick Earth out... it was exclusively unelected bureaucrats from Earth that got the League in the war with Manticore. If the rest kicked Earth out of the League, the remaining members may try to wheedle better deals from Manticore because 'they' weren't responsible, nor could they have truly done anything when "it was all Earth's fault".


Manticore may consider deals on Junction fees and what not, as part and parcel of ensuring the League 2.0 wants to stay friendly with them, and/or to start putting the Manticoran Merchant Marine back to work.

I'm not saying Manticore will offer "most favored nation" status like Beowulf or now Haven have, but they may offer something like 10% off total fees or some such. As a small gesture to rebuild the goodwill they had prior to blockading all wormholes and pulling all their freighters home in the first place.

*I* certainly wouldn't let Manticoran freighters simply come back to hauling cargos in or out of my system like they'd done nothing wrong without something in return. And the smallest gesture Manticore could make would be 50 years of a slightly discounted Junction fee, anything else was negotiated between Manticoran Cartels and systems directly.

I agree. "Earth native" is the concept that I was trying to impart upstream. I think a lot of people are belittling the significance of that. It lies at the core of the "bigotry from within" that I spoke of earlier.

I would bet the farm that "NEOBARB" is born exclusively out of the minds of Earth natives.

If I were the SL, I certainly wouldn't allow Manticore's merchant marine to operate in my space again. And I would boycott Manticoran Space as much as possible.

I have a question, though, Somtaaw. Why would the splinters need to kick the SL out? Out of what? The SL is already out of anything formed by the splintered states. As I coined upstream, this would be a block of successor states. BOSS.

A "space race" could have been fueled by Honor, between the splintered states and the SL. My point is that this rivalry could fuel eclipsing technology.

tlb wrote:I have said what I have wanted to say about this and do not see any reason to say more. Perhaps the author will write what you seem to want him to write, but I doubt it; I think he is more interested in wrapping up this story.

OMG! PLEASE! Do NOT digress back into your old habit of thinking that you know what the author will write, or accusing me of thinking that I know what the author will write, or what you THINK I want the author to write. Uggh!

tlb wrote:Over the years you have suggested various dire events that could come to pass.

Yes I did! Because I am grounded in human nature! For, I am human too! A very emotional line in a very popular song "Human" by one of my favorite groups, The Human League.

tlb wrote:I have not expected any to appear in the books,

Like my very unpopular notion, as it were, that the SLN would shit on their own Edict and start kewing planets?! I was skewered for that forecast in galactic weather patterns. But whattaya know, those weather patterns rolled right on in didn't they?

tlb wrote:because they did not fit my impression of the author's style. Not that my impressions are always correct, but neither of us have been great at projections.

Speak for yourself. I have been right on the money on several occasions. Like my aforementioned prediction of the SLN "kewing into compliance." Need me to pat myself on the back and list more?

tlb wrote:So, we hope that we shall see as the series concludes.

As the series concludes, I hope we see the author write what he wants to write, regardless of what ANYONE thinks his style should or shouldn't be inspite of what his style actually is.

And, btw, I pen what I think human nature is capable of.

cthia wrote:If I were the SL, I certainly wouldn't allow Manticore's merchant marine to operate in my space again. And I would boycott Manticoran Space as much as possible.

That like imposing sanctions on yourself and deliberately causes an economic impact. Why do you want to shoot yourself in the foot intentionally? If your objective was to aim at something next to your foot instead, what were the gains you were expecting here? And what is the big upside that is worth this risky extreme measure?

cthia wrote:Speak for yourself. I have been right on the money on several occasions. Like my aforementioned prediction of the SLN "kewing into compliance." Need me to pat myself on the back and list more?

You will have to remind me what book this was in, because I only remember KEW weapons being used by the SLN at the behest of friendly governments that were experiencing civil war.

That is different than "Case Buccaneer" which involved the missile attacks on orbitals containing civilians, which is an example of punishing those systems thinking of leaving the League. Perhaps that is what you meant.

The big episode that you predicted was the League attacking Beowulf to punish them for non-compliance. That did not work as planned and instead did not hide the bombing of the orbitals by the Malign.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Speak for yourself. I have been right on the money on several occasions. Like my aforementioned prediction of the SLN "kewing into compliance." Need me to pat myself on the back and list more?

You will have to remind me what book this was in, because I only remember KEW weapons being used by the SLN at the behest of friendly governments that were experiencing civil war.

That is different than "Case Buccaneer" which involved the missile attacks on orbitals containing civilians, which is an example of punishing those systems thinking of leaving the League. Perhaps that is what you meant.

The big episode that you predicted was the League attacking Beowulf to punish them for non-compliance. That did not work as planned and instead did not hide the bombing of the orbitals by the Malign.

Sure, I predicted that as well, didn't I?

But that is not the disagreement Duckk and I had. Long before that incident, I suggested the SLN would not accept defeat; that they would simply proceed to bombarding planets. Not Kew mind you. But bombard. Duckk argued that "the SLN are not a bunch of murderous idiots." Or something to that effect. I stated that they might even attempt to disguise it as something legal. It appears I was right on BOTH accounts. As the kews were actually legal. Unscrupulous, perhaps, but definitely legal.

I hit Case Buccaneer almost squarely on the nose. Except for the name and details. I can't seem to find the post either, even though I posted a link to it at least a couple of times over the years.

Since then, I simply lump it all, loosely, under "Kew into compliance." Note the quotation marks.

cthia wrote:Speak for yourself. I have been right on the money on several occasions. Like my aforementioned prediction of the SLN "kewing into compliance." Need me to pat myself on the back and list more?

tlb wrote:You will have to remind me what book this was in, because I only remember KEW weapons being used by the SLN at the behest of friendly governments that were experiencing civil war.

That is different than "Case Buccaneer" which involved the missile attacks on orbitals containing civilians, which is an example of punishing those systems thinking of leaving the League. Perhaps that is what you meant.

The big episode that you predicted was the League attacking Beowulf to punish them for non-compliance. That did not work as planned and instead did not hide the bombing of the orbitals by the Malign.

cthia wrote:Sure, I predicted that as well, didn't I?

But that is not the disagreement Duckk and I had. Long before that incident, I suggested the SLN would not accept defeat; that they would simply proceed to bombarding planets. Not Kew mind you. But bombard. Duckk argued that "the SLN are not a bunch of murderous idiots." Or something to that effect. I stated that they might even attempt to disguise it as something legal. It appears I was right on BOTH accounts. As the kews were actually legal. Unscrupulous, perhaps, but definitely legal.

I hit Case Buccaneer almost squarely on the nose. Except for the name and details. I can't seem to find the post either, even though I posted a link to it at least a couple of times over the years.

Since then, I simply lump it all, loosely, under "Kew into compliance." Note the quotation marks.

That is the point, the only case of bombarding planets was in the strictly legal sense of doing it at the request of the "legitimate" government. So Duckk was right, not you; because at that point it was not happening because they could not accept defeat, instead it was a case of OFS and Frontier Fleet doing what they had always done in the Verge.

When they struck at Hypatia and the other planets that might leave the League in "Case Buccaneer"; they were NOT bombarding planets, they were hitting the orbitals instead (provided they all had the same orders as given to the man at Hypatia, I do not believe that we have given the specifics for the other planets). So you did NOT hit that on the nose.

For the SL -existing members or Members post the 2.0 constitution, not allowing Manticore merchant marine to call at their systems to pickup-drop off shipments is just not good business. And yes, "shooting yourself in the foot" sums it up nicely.

Prior to Lacoon I, we are told that 50% or more of SL goods were carried by MMM ships on at least some part of their shipping. Then Lacoon I and there was a massive shortage of freight and commercial shipping availability and --so far--we have not been told how that got "mitigated". I say it that way because it takes years to build starships and even if every open slip was immediately filled with new construction for transports within a month of Lacoon I going into effect I don't think any of those ships would be ready by the time Harrington showed up at Sol.

Then there is the SL and it's TUFT provision - which is Taken Up From Trade- and is actually not unusually for a "nation" to make deals such that various commercial freighter must be turned over the the military in times of " need" We then watched a few of those get blown apart because they were being uses as the ammunition ships for Buccaneer Operations....Opps!
And how long would it have taken for either merchant marine shipping from areas outside the League to 1) hear about Lacoon I and free up a ship or two from less desirable runs to try and line up business in the League? Interest, sure, fees, licenses, finding freight brokers, lots of stuff. Then, of course, there were all those SL flagged ships who were caught in the wrong places where Lacoon II went into effect and they - to deliver or pick up loads- had to use something other than the MWJ or Manticoran held bridges.....and probably had significant problems by the long delays and related penalties because they had to go from A to B through hyperspace rather than a wormhole.

MMM (and now Haven et) will still have the preferred Manticoiran Flag rates for the MWJ and any bridges held by treaty allies (at the negotiated rates) but the SL flagged ships....not so much.

And EVERY system that has left/will leave the SL has the opportunity to make their own treaty with Manticore and will try to negotiate a better rate for it's own flagged ships (having dropped the SL flagging and started with their own if...well, it's more complicated that that but you get the idea.

The SL 2.0 doing something like putting a tariff on MMM.....well.....just how high would those have to be to make it worth while to not use a MMM ship vs a SL ship if you have to send your goods through their wormhole to be competitive? Or what would the handling charge be to be forced to transload from a MMM ship to receive said goods at your system rather than that MMM ship be on a regularly scheduled run and picked stuff up at a warehouse on "this" side of a wormhole? Think about the actual costs and then think about the effect on volume and velocity of moving goods if you set up those "punitive" tariffs. And your own people will just pass along any costs...... what are you going to do? Require certification that X piece of cargo was not carried on a MMM ship or charge a penalty?

What happens when several recent former SL member systems get together and strike their own treaties with Manticore? ANY reduction from the amount of the now wormhole rate that they get vs SL flagged ships will reduce that part of cost and probably end up making those "expatriates" more competitive than the SL ships.....slippery slope there...have fun.

cthia wrote:Since then, I simply lump it all, loosely, under "Kew into compliance." Note the quotation marks.

I do not think that the quotations marks are needed, because almost no one will hit a planet with a missile when a much cheaper KEW is available. The only exceptions that come to mind are the Masadans, since they would not mind the radioactive contamination on their enemies soil.

tlb wrote:I do not think that the quotations marks are needed, because almost no one will hit a planet with a missile when a much cheaper KEW is available. The only exceptions that come to mind are the Masadans, since they would not mind the radioactive contamination on their enemies soil.

And the Masadan's missiles are primitive enough they probably do use fission core to initiate; so they'd be somewhat radioactive whether or not the warhead went off.

Modern navies use pure fusion grav pinch warheads which literally are not radioactive until/unless you trigger fusion by gravitationally compressing the fuel. (Now RMN/GSN microfusion power plant would release a bit of radioactivity if the missile impacted)

But the main thing you can get from a missile over a normal KEW is extinction event impact energies -- as the KEW would hit with probably at most a couple thousand (and probably more like a couple hundred) KPS while a modern missile could hit with north of 80,000 (200,000 for an MDM)
And since energy goes up with velocity squared!!

Of course most people don't want to rain down extinction level events