?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Both of you are making the same critical mistake again, by failing to understand that completely new tactics and strategy will be available to an enemy who has introduced a completely new paradigm of weapons.

You are basing your exchange rate on traditional tactics and strategy which is mainly based upon hardware and warships. The LDs can get very close to the enemy, and an exchange rate of only one GA ship is worth the exchange if that ship is commanded by the GA's most valuable officer. I would wager that killing Harrington would be worth the exchange rate of losing an LD for even just one GA ship.

I agree, Harrington is protected by plot. (Thank god.) But Henke and other very important officers (along with the blow to moral that losing those officers would bring) are not.

The MA can wage a war against one of the most valuable assets in the GA. They can go after the GA's most valuable and dangerous officers. Current and up and coming.

A war of attrition of the GA's top Tacticians and Strategists would change the outdated equation into a frightening exchange rate.

I maintain I don't see how any number of LDs could approach an RMN Battle Squadron and get into kissing range of the flagship without being detected by escorts first. If they instead go against unprepared targets and close only to energy range of half a million km, then you don't need an LD in the first place: a LAC can shoot its BC-grade graser and take out an unprotected SD.

I also don't think 20 LDs for one tactician is worth the exchange and don't think the MAN would make that calculation. Especially because this is taking 20 of your crews too, and could still backfire if the person in question survives by virtue of not being there.

The GA navies have far more people and far more hardware. In a war of attrition, they win, even if the people doing the winning are little better than mediocre.

A number of LDs shouldn't approach a battle squadron. The more LDs there are, the higher the chance of detection. Destroying Imperator is the job of a single LD. The LD officer who is said to be able to 'sneak up on a skunk and steal his stink.'

In peacetime before the first volley is thrown to start a war, there are no screens. LACs have not been launched. They are not at battle stations. Life aboard ship is very lax. Someone is flirting with the regs in the coat closet. And I personally feel like there is a certain vector one should approach a fleet. Like a blind spot when driving.

That is the danger of not declaring DEFCON 1 indefinitely.

At any rate, only one LD is needed to sacrifice itself for for a Salamander, or a Henke, or a White Haven, or a Petersen, etc. Sure, it is a suicide mission for the LD. But a worthy exchange, as far as I am concerned. YMMV.

Fire the crippler-like weapon from an insanely close range which will instantly bring down the wedge, then fire all batteries and missiles. An SD won't survive a 3-second firing graser from knife fighting range. Even with the sidewalls and wedge up.

penny wrote:A number of LDs shouldn't approach a battle squadron. The more LDs there are, the higher the chance of detection. Destroying Imperator is the job of a single LD. The LD officer who is said to be able to 'sneak up on a skunk and steal his stink.'

One on many is definitely suicide by cop. The moment it opens fire, the other ships in the formation return it. Even at peacetime conditions, being in kissing range means it's in range of even of PDLCs. I'd be surprised if the LD can fire at a second target before it's taken down.

As I said, the Maths doesn't work. One SD and a competent CO for one LD is not an exchange rate that the MAN should accept, not unless it has 1500 LDs.

Not to mention this tactic makes no sense. The LD itself doesn't need to get close by. It can swim out a spider graser torpedo to do that job, which has a similar graser performance and a much smaller area, volume and mass to be detected. It can also send multiple of them, so they can take multiple targets at once. While this happens, the LD is three quarters of the way to the hyperlimit.

In peacetime before the first volley is thrown to start a war, there are no screens. LACs have not been launched. They are not at battle stations. Life aboard ship is very lax. Someone is flirting with the regs in the coat closet. And I personally feel like there is a certain vector one should approach a fleet. Like a blind side when driving.

In space, no one side of a ship is worse than any other. Even if there were, then you'd position your ships so that their blind spots are covered by others, so there's no way one can sneak up a fleet. The simple fact that there are multiple ships already means there's separation between them, so not even lax conditions would make this happen: a lax formation means the ships are oriented sloppily every which way and moving about. You'd need to intentionally force them to create and keep a blind spot.

Coming from the direction of the star is actually worse, because you're occluding it.

Fire the crippler-like weapon from an insanely close range which will instantly bring down the wedge, then fire all batteries and missiles. An SD won't survive a 3-second firing grazer from knife fighting range. Even with the sidewalls and wedge up.

There's no crippler weapon that works or has ever worked against warships.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:A number of LDs shouldn't approach a battle squadron. The more LDs there are, the higher the chance of detection. Destroying Imperator is the job of a single LD. The LD officer who is said to be able to 'sneak up on a skunk and steal his stink.'

One on many is definitely suicide by cop.

Don't you ever belittle the plight of the kamikaze. As it was then it is now. It is for Honor! It is ironic that I feel like Honor trying to browbeat Hamish into letting go of old outdated equations of attrition and realizing the new threat environment. Old habits die hard, but even your royal heinous Cordelia Ransom knew the value of taking Honor off the board. If you do not think losing an LD for killing Honor is a good exchange rate you are out of your mind.

Wait! ... They got to you didn't they? Don't blink if you are under compulsion.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:The moment it opens fire, the other ships in the formation return it. Even at peacetime conditions, being in kissing range means it's in range of even of PDLCs. I'd be surprised if the LD can fire at a second target before it's taken down.

Second target??? The LD will be concerned with Imperator. Only!

Thinksmarkedly wrote:As I said, the Maths doesn't work. One SD and a competent CO for one LD is not an exchange rate that the MAN should accept, not unless it has 1500 LDs.

Maths don't work? Dammit man! You are as pig-headed as Hamish was. Removing not only the most valuable player in the GA but the most valuable player in the universe would be worth several LDs! Honor is an Alpha as well. The proof is in the pudding. Removing the only Alpha the GA has might be worth half the LD fleet! Over in the When did Honor become MVP thread, I asked how many fleets is Honor worth. How many battles and warships and SDs is she worth.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Not to mention this tactic makes no sense. The LD itself doesn't need to get close by. It can swim out a spider graser torpedo to do that job, which has a similar graser performance and a much smaller area, volume and mass to be detected. It can also send multiple of them, so they can take multiple targets at once. While this happens, the LD is three quarters of the way to the hyperlimit.

Utilizing graser torpedos instead of an LD to render outdated the old equations of attrition does not change my original statement that stealth will allow the MA to wage a new and frightening war of attrition against top Strategists and Tacticians.

At any rate, ultimately it isn't a matter of the LD needing to get close by, rather than a matter of opportunity. Providence. Seizing the moment. There might not be time to swim out graser torpedoes which might or might not get the job done for whatever reason. Providence! Providence! Is this mic on?

Do I have to remind you that Honor is at the top of the CAASAP list? If it gets back to the MA that an officer squandered an opportunity to ensure his success in killing Honor because he was more concerned with his own life, then he might as well mimick the Red October and defect. Go ahead and deploy the g-torps, sure, but he damn well better follow them in.

penny wrote:In peacetime before the first volley is thrown to start a war, there are no screens. LACs have not been launched. They are not at battle stations. Life aboard ship is very lax. Someone is flirting with the regs in the coat closet. And I personally feel like there is a certain vector one should approach a fleet. Like a blind side when driving.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:In space, no one side of a ship is worse than any other. Even if there were, then you'd position your ships so that their blind spots are covered by others, so there's no way one can sneak up a fleet. The simple fact that there are multiple ships already means there's separation between them, so not even lax conditions would make this happen: a lax formation means the ships are oriented sloppily every which way and moving about. You'd need to intentionally force them to create and keep a blind spot.

Coming from the direction of the star is actually worse, because you're occluding it.

Not "side of the ship" inasmuch as vector of approach. When stalking prey, you do not stalk them from their front where they can see you. The GA is highly enamored with their own accel, and their strategy and tactics is built upon it. Their passive and active radar is not concerned with sweeping the area behind it. So the stern is an inherent blind spot by protocol, not by design. (Used simply as an example to establish that there is validity in the notion of a blind spot.)

At any rate, I rather doubt that ship formations are all formal in the MBS at peacetime. They are not at DEFCON 1.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Fire the crippler-like weapon from an insanely close range which will instantly bring down the wedge, then fire all batteries and missiles. An SD won't survive a 3-second firing grazer from knife fighting range. Even with the sidewalls and wedge up.

There's no crippler weapon that works or has ever worked against warships.

You are forgetting the original premise. The fact that the LD can deploy the crippler from a much closer range might make it more effective. And do note that the crippler was already effective at longer ranges.

If the drunken wiki is sober today, it states ...

The Crippler was ineffective against warships due to the pair of impeller stress bands generated for both the roof and floor of the wedge. Attempting to overload one stress band would simply flow back into the other band, preventing resonance. The effect could be mitigated by installing breakers at key junctions, which would reset once tripped, restoring the wedge. (HHA4.2: WOS)

That might not happen as smoothly if deployed from a closer range, thus delivering more energy per time on target. Range might change the equation. Just like the average circuit breaker can be overloaded, the ability of the stress bands to pass the load might be overloaded or circumvented if the already long-ranged crippler is deployed from near knife-fighting range.

penny wrote:Don't you ever belittle the plight of the kamikaze. As it was then it is now. It is for Honor! It is ironic that I feel like Honor trying to browbeat Hamish into letting go of old outdated equations of attrition and realizing the new threat environment. Old habits die hard, but even your royal heinous Cordelia Ransom knew the value of taking Honor off the board. If you do not think losing an LD for killing Honor is a good exchange rate you are out of your mind.

There's a difference between taking Honor off the board at reasonable cost and doing so at any cost. The MAlign tried before with a nanite assassination, which is very low cost. It almost worked, except she shot her would-be assassin with her finger. Sending bombs, assassins, torpedoes, etc. are all within reason.

20 crews and a cumulative 100 years of ship-building time is not. I don't know where the break-even point is, but it's far below this.

And besides, such things can spectacularly backfire, as Cordelia Ransom found out. I'm not even talking about Honor's escape from Hades with the biggest prisoner rescue in human history, but the simple galvanisation of the RMN and GSN forces against the PRH. Honor was celebrated simultaneously on two systems receiving the highest military honours possible; on Landing, her (empty) casket was laid next to the two other highest heroes of her nation, Edward Saganami and Ellen D'Orville.

Maths don't work? Dammit man! You are as pig-headed as Hamish was. Removing not only the most valuable player in the GA but the most valuable player in the universe would be worth several LDs! Honor is an Alpha as well. The proof is in the pudding. Removing the only Alpha the GA has might be worth half the LD fleet! Over in the When did Honor become MVP thread, I asked how many fleets is Honor worth. How many battles and warships and SDs is she worth.

I don't agree. More importantly, I don't think the Detweilers agree. They see life as expendable. Even Albrecht was expendable. I don't see them rationalising Honor being that important. Not to mention she's retired and won't be participating in prosecuting the leading steps of the war.

And if not Honor, is there anyone worth a single LD, let alone 20?

On the other hand, if Honor is retired, she's actually an easier target. Send a g-torp to fire on the Harrington Steading and you take out Honor, Hamish, Raoul, Katherine, Andrew, Nimitz and Samantha.

Utilizing graser torpedos instead of an LD to render outdated the old equations of attrition does not change my original statement that stealth will allow the MA to wage a new and frightening war of attrition against top Strategists and Tacticians.

You're right that the stealth renders some tactics plausible when they weren't before. I never doubted that or disagreed with it.

I am saying two things: one, the stealth is not that perfect and can be defeated, at a minimum through brute force. Second, that doesn't lead to reckless tactics, like sacrificing one LD for one SD, especially if you have better options.

At any rate, ultimately it isn't a matter of the LD needing to get close by, rather than a matter of opportunity. Providence. Seizing the moment. There might not be time to swim out graser torpedoes which might or might not get the job done for whatever reason. Providence! Providence! Is this mic on?

Let's rewind this scenario a half hour: the LD is being corralled into a kill basket and its CO stupidly allowed him/herself to be put in this position instead of aborting. And also did not swim out the torpedoes earlier. Those torpedoes can keep pace with the ship and have sufficient power supply, so they should have been deployed before as a contingency. So this incompetent CO knows he's dead or captured and thus decides to "Alamo" again.

Do I have to remind you that Honor is at the top of the CAASAP list? If it gets back to the MA that an officer squandered an opportunity to ensure his success in killing Honor because he was more concerned with his own life, then he might as well mimick the Red October and defect. Go ahead and deploy the g-torps, sure, but he damn well better follow them in.

Colin's Assassination list is for assassins (spooks and other operatives), not navy flag personnel. Colin does not run the MAN. And my reasons for the exchange ratio above still apply.

Not "side of the ship" inasmuch as vector of approach. When stalking prey, you do not stalk them from their front where they can see you. The GA is highly enamored with their own accel, and their strategy and tactics is built upon it. Their passive and active radar is not concerned with sweeping the area behind it. So the stern is an inherent blind spot by protocol, not by design. (Used simply as an example to establish that there is validity in the notion of a blind spot.)

Ships aren't animals. They do have 360° sensing in all three axes, including through the wedge.

Since ships decelerate by flipping over and going ass-backwards, that means they spend roughly 50% of the time with each aspect pointed in the direction of travel. Not to mention that acceleration isn't all: it's possible to catch up with a ship with higher acceleration if you have a higher starting velocity. And when you're decelerating, then both sides are vulnerable. That means their scanning equipment must be equally capable on both aspects.

The only ships we know of that are have actually very different stern and bow aspects are the pod-layers, because of the presence of the pod bay door. Before this and for every non-pod-laying, they're pretty much the same.

At any rate, I rather doubt that ship formations are all formal in the MBS at peacetime. They are not at DEFCON 1.

No, but then Honor isn't aboard ship because she's retired. And if those formations are at peacetime conditions, the g-torp strategy has a very high chance of succeeding, without risking the LD.

You are forgetting the original premise. The fact that the LD can deploy the crippler from a much closer range might make it more effective. And do note that the crippler was already effective at longer ranges.
[...]
That might not happen as smoothly if deployed from a closer range, thus delivering more energy per time on target. Range might change the equation. Just like the average circuit breaker can be overloaded, the ability of the stress bands to pass the load might be overloaded or circumvented if the already long-ranged crippler is deployed from near knife-fighting range.

Maybe, but only David can rule that. Given that the crippler didn't work at all on a warship's double wedge and was easily countered for single ones, I would doubt it works at any range.

And besides, needing it goes against the peacetime conditions. If the ship is under way, the LD can't get close enough to deploy a would-be crippler. If the LD can get close enough because the ship is stationary, it doesn't need the crippler.

penny wrote:You are forgetting the original premise. The fact that the LD can deploy the crippler from a much closer range might make it more effective. And do note that the crippler was already effective at longer ranges.

If the drunken wiki is sober today, it states ...

The Crippler was ineffective against warships due to the pair of impeller stress bands generated for both the roof and floor of the wedge. Attempting to overload one stress band would simply flow back into the other band, preventing resonance. The effect could be mitigated by installing breakers at key junctions, which would reset once tripped, restoring the wedge. (HHA4.2: WOS)

That might not happen as smoothly if deployed from a closer range, thus delivering more energy per time on target. Range might change the equation. Just like the average circuit breaker can be overloaded, the ability of the stress bands to pass the load might be overloaded or circumvented if the already long-ranged crippler is deployed from near knife-fighting range.

Ignoring how the MAlign might come across the failed tech that Charles was peddling nearly 20 years ago, the wiki may have been extra drunken.

What the book actually says is

With One Stone wrote:"This isn't like a grav lance," Pampas said, shaking his head. "That does actually push the wedge out far enough to knock out a sidewall. What this thing does is more subtle. It runs the attacker's wedge frequency up and down, alternating between a pair of wildly different frequencies, setting up a sort of rolling resonance. Even at a million klicks out, there's enough of an effect to throw an instability into the victim's own wedge, which manifests itself as a transient feedback through the stress bands back into the nodes. The current goes roaring through a handful of critical junction points-" He lifted a hand and dropped it back onto the table. "And as we saw, poof."
[...]
it won't work against a warship." [...] "any warship,"
[...]
"Because warships generate two different sets of stress bands, remember?" Pampas said patiently.
[...] "So why can't it just take them down one at a time?"
"Because there's no specific frequency for a resonance to latch onto," Pampas explained. "The two wedges act like weakly coupled springs, with their frequencies in effect flowing back and forth into each other.

The weakly coupled effect is going to be able to eat any amount of attempt to create a resonance feedback. There simple is no resonant frequency, and so no possibility of resonance feedback.

Now, with sufficient power, you could still blow a wedge by brute force. But now you're talking about hitting it not with subtle little effects that you can do at range, but smashing it with something equivalent or stronger to itself! That wouldn't be a variation on the crippler -- that'd be a whole different ball game.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Don't you ever belittle the plight of the kamikaze. As it was then it is now. It is for Honor! It is ironic that I feel like Honor trying to browbeat Hamish into letting go of old outdated equations of attrition and realizing the new threat environment. Old habits die hard, but even your royal heinous Cordelia Ransom knew the value of taking Honor off the board. If you do not think losing an LD for killing Honor is a good exchange rate you are out of your mind.

There's a difference between taking Honor off the board at reasonable cost and doing so at any cost. The MAlign tried before with a nanite assassination, which is very low cost. It almost worked, except she shot her would-be assassin with her finger. Sending bombs, assassins, torpedoes, etc. are all within reason.

What's in a name? That which we call Her Majesty's Assassin because he drives an Aston Martin (James Bond) is no different than an assassin given a little more resources and is driving an LD.

You are playing a game of chess against Honor. She is the most powerful piece on the board. Her side and your side. How many of your Rooks, Knights, Bishops and pawns are you going to send after her? You sure aren't going to let her saunter by if you corner her in a dark alley in space. If you leave her on the board, don't hope to win.

And you really can't harp on the fact that Colin doesn't run the navy. His brother does. His cloned brother. They are as close as the mafia. Closer still. They don't kill each other. If you do not think that Colin's cause is all of the Detweiler's cause, you are mistaken. Their entire ideology begs it to be that way. Or what would that say about the validity of their research. If all Alphas can't come to the same logical conclusions, then their mission of genetic enlightenment is a failure. We're not just talking about the Inner Onion when it comes to agreeing. We're talking about the Inner Family. They will always agree on who should be on Darius' Most Wanted list. They will agree on it at dinner. "I will send my best man to the MBS. He can sneak up on a skunk. And the Salamander stinks."

I have more than just an uncanny ability to become the character, I also have an affinity to 'become the situation.' I don't know if I can make this any clearer.

Honor is at the top of the CAASAP list for a reason. You don't make the TOP TEN STRATEGISTS AND TACTICIANS list no more than Bin Laden can make the FBI TEN MOST WANTED list and think the 3-letter agency will spare any expense getting you. I can imagine that a few people in Abbottabad, Pakistan got rich ratting Bin Laden out. "There is $2.4M US in this briefcase. As much as can be stuffed into it. Where is he?"

In case it still isn't clear. The order to assassinate Honor should be At All Costs! Which means that my mileage does indeed vary and it is as follows ...

1. Honor is an Alpha! If anyone is going to appreciate that, it is the MAlign.

2. The GA only has one Alpha at its 'disposal.' Malign Providence. That takes a lot of complexity out of the equation.

3. Honor is the best tactician and strategist to send to Darius.

4. Honor is the most likely tactician to succeed which makes her the best tactician to send to Darius. She also made the promise to herself that she'd do so. It is personal to her. Having beta blood means she takes things personal. She had vowed to protect the Treecats. She feels she failed them.

5. Honor is the best Strategist to develop the strategy to attack Darius.

6. Honor is the best tactician to handle anything on the fly.

7. The Salamander is the only officer that will guarantee the exchange rate is in the GA's favor.

8. Killing Honor kills Honor Harrington and The Salamander. Two birds with one stone. Frightening exchange rate.

9. And I personally believe that Honor has always had a sixth sense. She inherited it from the Cats. The cats are very good with logic. They count ideas in base6 logic. Honor can do it too. She can see things that aren't there. That is why she is the best tactician in the galaxy to send up against the MAlign. She can think on the fly. She has always been adept at seeing the unseen without seeing it. Making her the best tactician going up against an LD. An invisible LD. The unseen.

10. She has always been the RMN's most successful officer in prosecuting a war, and she will be the most successful officer prosecuting this war.

So, remove her from the board! A S A P. If not sooner. Maybe even as a sucker punch to begin the war. That is a good first opening chess move.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:20 crews and a cumulative 100 years of ship-building time is not. I don't know where the break-even point is, but it's far below this.

Why do you keep talking about 20 crews? An LD is powerful enough to take out an SD by itself if its stealth is as formidable as I think it is. Contrary to what you may think, the LD will not be a pussy. It is a spider. Not a cat.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:And besides, such things can spectacularly backfire, as Cordelia Ransom found out. I'm not even talking about Honor's escape from Hades with the biggest prisoner rescue in human history, but the simple galvanisation of the RMN and GSN forces against the PRH. Honor was celebrated simultaneously on two systems receiving the highest military honours possible; on Landing, her (empty) casket was laid next to the two other highest heroes of her nation, Edward Saganami and Ellen D'Orville.

Rolling my eyes like Pavel Young must have done on countless occasions, 'Yeah yeah yeah, I keep hearing about how great she is, so why shouldn't I have her assassinated?'

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Maths don't work? Dammit man! You are as pig-headed as Hamish was. Removing not only the most valuable player in the GA but the most valuable player in the universe would be worth several LDs! Honor is an Alpha as well. The proof is in the pudding. Removing the only Alpha the GA has might be worth half the LD fleet! Over in the When did Honor become MVP thread, I asked how many fleets is Honor worth. How many battles and warships and SDs is she worth.

I don't agree. More importantly, I don't think the Detweilers agree. They see life as expendable. Even Albrecht was expendable. I don't see them rationalising Honor being that important. Not to mention she's retired and won't be participating in prosecuting the leading steps of the war.

And if not Honor, is there anyone worth a single LD, let alone 20?

See above, all of the clones will agree. They are clones of each other. They can't get any closer than that as a Mafia family.

Yes, they do see life as expendable, which means they will not hesitate for one malignant second to assassinate Honor ... By hook, by crook, by Peep, by Solarian, by Manticoran, by Grayson, by Andermanian, by spook, by spy or by LD.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:On the other hand, if Honor is retired, she's actually an easier target. Send a g-torp to fire on the Harrington Steading and you take out Honor, Hamish, Raoul, Katherine, Andrew, Nimitz and Samantha.

Like I said, sooner or later, they always come around.

But Honor will never be fully retired until Darius is found. But you have a point, she can also be killed while she is going back and forth in a shuttle to Imperator.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Utilizing graser torpedos instead of an LD to render outdated the old equations of attrition does not change my original statement that stealth will allow the MA to wage a new and frightening war of attrition against top Strategists and Tacticians.

You're right that the stealth renders some tactics plausible when they weren't before. I never doubted that or disagreed with it.

I am saying two things: one, the stealth is not that perfect and can be defeated, at a minimum through brute force.

An opponent cannot apply brute force while he is the one being sucker punched. Brute force is being applied to you!

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Second, that doesn't lead to reckless tactics, like sacrificing one LD for one SD, especially if you have better options.

It also doesn't lead to reckless strategy or tactics either. The decision to assassinate is strategic. You don't fail to put your worst enemy on your eliminate list. And you don't suddenly embrace reckless tactics to ignore an opportunity to do so. You're a spider for goodness sakes, and her Imperator has flown right into your web. So what if she's surrounded by a lot of other flies. You only want that one.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:At any rate, ultimately it isn't a matter of the LD needing to get close by, rather than a matter of opportunity. Providence. Seizing the moment. There might not be time to swim out graser torpedoes which might or might not get the job done for whatever reason. Providence! Providence! Is this mic on?

Let's rewind this scenario a half hour: the LD is being corralled into a kill basket and its CO stupidly allowed him/herself to be put in this position instead of aborting. And also did not swim out the torpedoes earlier. Those torpedoes can keep pace with the ship and have sufficient power supply, so they should have been deployed before as a contingency. So this incompetent CO knows he's dead or captured and thus decides to "Alamo" again.

Woe! Woe! Woe! You have incorrectly analyzed the situation. The LD isn't being corralled into anything. The LD is doing the corralling. The quiet stealthy spider is the one spinning the web. You can't corral something you can't see and something you don't even know is there.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Do I have to remind you that Honor is at the top of the CAASAP list? If it gets back to the MA that an officer squandered an opportunity to ensure his success in killing Honor because he was more concerned with his own life, then he might as well mimick the Red October and defect. Go ahead and deploy the g-torps, sure, but he damn well better follow them in.

Colin's Assassination list is for assassins (spooks and other operatives), not navy flag personnel. Colin does not run the MAN. And my reasons for the exchange ratio above still apply.

Please see above. Your logic is fatally flawed and predicated not upon this malignant entity.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

Not "side of the ship" inasmuch as vector of approach. When stalking prey, you do not stalk them from their front where they can see you. The GA is highly enamored with their own accel, and their strategy and tactics is built upon it. Their passive and active radar is not concerned with sweeping the area behind it. So the stern is an inherent blind spot by protocol, not by design. (Used simply as an example to establish that there is validity in the notion of a blind spot.)

Ships aren't animals. They do have 360° sensing in all three axes, including through the wedge.

But as animals , they can be snuck up on. Or ambushed.

They have the ability to sense 360°, but that ability isn't always activated. Even while at DefCon 1.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Since ships decelerate by flipping over and going ass-backwards, that means they spend roughly 50% of the time with each aspect pointed in the direction of travel.

And 50% not.

penny wrote:You are playing a game of chess against Honor. She is the most powerful piece on the board. Her side and your side. How many of your Rooks, Knights, Bishops and pawns are you going to send after her? You sure aren't going to let her saunter by if you corner her in a dark alley in space. If you leave her on the board, don't hope to win.

Good question. How many?

Let's say you don't have a queen because you don't have an equivalent. Is a queen worth all of your bishops, rooks and knights combined?

That's the type of exchange ratio I am talking about.

In case it still isn't clear. The order to assassinate Honor should be At All Costs! Which means that my mileage does indeed vary and it is as follows...

No, it should not. Is assassinating Honor worth exposing the location of Darius?

1. Honor is an Alpha! If anyone is going to appreciate that, it is the MAlign.

Though they say she is, that is disputed.

2. The GA only has one Alpha at its 'disposal.' Malign Providence. That takes a lot of complexity out of the equation.

For the same reason that it's disputed she's an Alpha, many others in the one hundred billion living currently in the GA systems could fall under the same classification. Some with better genetic history than she.

3. Honor is the best tactician and strategist to send to Darius.
4.
5.
6.

No dispute on those.

However, the fact that she's the best officer to take the MAlign down does not mean she's the only who can. There is no one other officer who is her equal, but if you put Henke, Theisman and Tourville together, they could. One learned directly from her, one fighting her, and the other is the only officer who's successfully beaten her.

More importantly, the exchange ratio: taking Honor off the board is not worth weakening your own forces so much that a slightly-above-average SLN officer could win. You don't want to have to surrender to Kingsford, do you?

7. The Salamander is the only officer that will guarantee the exchange rate is in the GA's favor.

There I dispute. There are many very competent officers who could still prevail against the MAlign.

At a minimum, remember that the original plotline was that she would have died and someone else would lead the charge against the MAlign. And no, I'm not saying it's Raoul Alexander-Harrington; it isn't clear if the timeline would have progressed that far for him to have become supreme forces commander.

In fact, there's a very good chance that this will still come to pass: Honor will be retired by the climatic battle and won't participate in it.

So, remove her from the board! A S A P. If not sooner. Maybe even as a sucker punch to begin the war. That is a good first opening chess move.

Tactic: reveal to the Galaxy that the MAlign still exists, by throwing all five currently existing LD-class ships at the MBS. In the process, Honor dies, but all five ships are destroyed too. But not totally... the databases of one of them survive, which include the galactic coordinates of Darius. The enlisted / conscripted personnel also do and they provide even more intel.

The GA peoples are so incensed with the loss of The Salamander that they demand the GF reform and take action immediately. They dispatch 400 SD(P)s and CLACs that drop on Darius that is completely unprepared for such an assault, because the next batch of LDs is still barely in construction and their hulls are yet to be even pressurised, and all resources had been diverted to the first five that there aren't even any other defences around Gamma besides a few old forts of the same type that existed on Galton.

Darius ends.

I don't think that's a good story.

Why do you keep talking about 20 crews? An LD is powerful enough to take out an SD by itself if its stealth is as formidable as I think it is. Contrary to what you may think, the LD will not be a pussy. It is a spider. Not a cat.

Because that's the discussion we were having: attacking a fleet and taking out all of its capital ships. At some point in the discussion, it became sending one LD to take out one capital ship.

Yes, they do see life as expendable, which means they will not hesitate for one malignant second to assassinate Honor ... By hook, by crook, by Peep, by Solarian, by Manticoran, by Grayson, by Andermanian, by spook, by spy or by LD.

They see life as expendable, but not a free resource. There's a value associated with each, albeit low.

And in the equation, I doubt one Honor is worth 10,000 capable MAN personnel intentionally on a suicide mission, much less 200,000.

But Honor will never be fully retired until Darius is found. But you have a point, she can also be killed while she is going ack and forth with a shuttle to Imperator.

Which is a far more plausible scenario for having the LD approach the battle fleet in the first place, instead of sending a g-torp.

An opponent cannot apply brute force while he is the one being su ker punched. Brute force is being applied to you!

There's such a thing as brute force defence, like having so many layers of it that the enemy can't get through.

It also doesn't lead to reckless strategy or tactics either. The decision to assassinate is strategic. You don't fail to put your worst enemy on your eliminate list. And you don't suddenly embrace reckless tactics to ignore an opportunity to do so. You're a spider for goodness sakes, and her [i Imperator [/i] has flown right I to your web. So what she's surrounded by a lot of other flies. You only want that one.

All this is saying is that taking Honor's ship out is an opportunity to be seized, not a mission to be planned. A planned mission would deploy stand-off range stealth weapons.

But I don't see an LD loitering around a battle fleet, even in peace time, for more than a few minutes. The danger of being found out increases with time, giving the whole ballgame away. Therefore, I don't see the scenario where the LD could shoot at Honor's ship even being possible.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Let's rewind this scenario a half hour: the LD is being corralled into a kill basket and its CO stupidly allowed him/herself to be put in this position instead of aborting. And also did not swim out the torpedoes earlier. Those torpedoes can keep pace with the ship and have sufficient power supply, so they should have been deployed before as a contingency. So this incompetent CO knows he's dead or captured and thus decides to "Alamo" again.

Woe! Woe! Woe! You have incorrectly analyzed the situation. The LD isn't being corralled into anything. The LD is doing the corralling. The quiet stealthy spider is the one spin ing the web. You can't corral something you can't see and you don't know is even there.

What the LD's CO intended to do is irrelevant: what matters is that he failed and found himself corralled into a kill basket from which he could not escape. That's the only reason he'd be found so close to enemy ships without torpedoes ready.

That's the description of the situation we had: the LD can't do anything but shoot its own weapons now, which definitely gives away its position. The moment it does, it signals to everyone else within 50 million km where to send missiles. So it dies.

My argument for rewinding the scenario is that this CO would have had ample opportunity to deploy torpedoes and escape with his ship intact earlier on. There's no reason why they would find themselves so close to enemy ships in the first place, if the torpedoes are that capable.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Since ships decelerate by flipping over and going ass-backwards, that means they spend roughly 50% of the time with each aspect pointed in the direction of travel.

And 50% not.

My point was that the equipment is equally capable on both ends because each is used 50% of the time. When a ship is decelerating, it's scanning ahead of it for what's to come and because of human nature, and what's behind it because now something can overtake it. When it's accelerating away, it's scanning ahead of itself for the same reasons. Maybe then they aren't looking behind, as it is difficult to generate an intercept.

And because it's difficult to generate an intercept, it's definitely difficult for an spider asset to do so. The only thing they could do is use Honor's own tactics at Cerberus and cross the flight path laterally.

A variant of this could work. In fact, currently, this is the only tactic I see making sense using spiders against non-stationary targets. And then only in peace time.

But with torpedoes, not with the LDs themselves. Since the torpedoes have the same acceleration and endurance of the LD, there's no advantage in sending the LD itself, there's no reason for it like Honor had to do (she didn't have the torpedoes) and there are plenty of reasons not to risk the mothership.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:So this incompetent CO knows he's dead or captured and thus decides to "Alamo" again.

penny wrote:Woe! Woe! Woe! You have incorrectly analyzed the situation. The LD isn't being corralled into anything. The LD is doing the corralling.

WOE: a word meaning great sorrow or distress, or something causing great sorrow or distress.

WHOA: a word used as a command to stop a horse, or indicating great excitement or surprise.

"Woe" would be correct, if you were wrong and the LD was about to be destroyed or captured.

tlb wrote:

Thinksmarkedly wrote:So this incompetent CO knows he's dead or captured and thus decides to "Alamo" again.

penny wrote:Woe! Woe! Woe! You have incorrectly analyzed the situation. The LD isn't being corralled into anything. The LD is doing the corralling.

WOE: a word meaning great sorrow or distress, or something causing great sorrow or distress.

WHOA: a word used as a command to stop a horse, or indicating great excitement or surprise.

"Woe" would be correct, if you were wrong and the LD was about to be destroyed or captured.

I can understand the misunderstanding.

It is a cultural thing, and regional. I live in the Bible Belt, and we use it in this sense, Woe unto you for being so wrong.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:So this incompetent CO knows he's dead or captured and thus decides to "Alamo" again.

penny wrote:Woe! Woe! Woe! You have incorrectly analyzed the situation. The LD isn't being corralled into anything. The LD is doing the corralling.

tlb wrote:WOE: a word meaning great sorrow or distress, or something causing great sorrow or distress.

WHOA: a word used as a command to stop a horse, or indicating great excitement or surprise.

"Woe" would be correct, if you were wrong and the LD was about to be destroyed or captured.

penny wrote:I can understand the misunderstanding.

It is a cultural thing, and regional. I live in the Bible Belt, and we use it in this sense, Woe unto you for being so wrong.

Interesting, so not a "the gig is up" sort of thing; although if I remembered it correctly, perhaps that was a regional or cultural thing also.