?

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Even if they can work in an anti-missile role, even if they have the combination of area effect and slew rate to manage to tag an incoming missile, there's going to be, what, 8-12 spider emitters on each skeg?

That should give you no more that the equivalent of one extra PDLC worth of defense. You'll take it, but hardly likely to be a missile defense game changer.


Kind of like warships using their main battery grasers/lasers against missiles -- not likely to be particularly effective but what the heck, you might as well. Any missile they do hit is one less for the dedicated anti-missile defenses to deal with.

I disagree Jonathan. Anyway, you are still making that same critical mistake about unprecedented weapons.

If the notion holds water, I would tend to think it would be even more effective than traditional point defense. Point defense is, well, a "point" defense. Traditional point defense only controls one square on the chess board at a time. A tractor used as a missile defense would be more of an "area" defense, as you said. Like a Rook on the chess board commanding an entire rank. And if the tractor can be swept from side to side and up and down very quickly, well goodbye missiles in job lots.

Jonathan_S wrote:While we're stuck working off of limited information, we know that a normal ship tractor covers an area smaller than a LAC[1] -- so probably less than 600 square meters -- and there's no reason to think a spider's overpowered tractor would be orders of magnitude larger in footprint.

???

I disagree. These are not a normal ship's tractors. You really can't accurately refer to them as tractors. They are not natively designed to pull much smaller ships, they are designed to propel a very huge warship. And they may scale up since they are installed on a very huge ship.

Jonathan_S wrote:But the area you'd need to sweep, at 50,000 km (laserhead standoff range) is - well - a lot larger than that. Like the better part of 11 million times larger than that!

That disparity means you're still going to need to aim the emitter at specific missiles; just sweeping it around isn't going to accomplish much. (Especially as there's no reason to expect that a drive component whose mount needs to handle pulling a non-trivial fraction of the ships mass is going to be able to pivot with the blinding speed of a PDLC mount -- the connection between the spider emitters and the rest of the hull needs to be designed for strength; not rapid aiming. So it probably can't sweep at particularly high angular rates)

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[1] Because Thunder of God/Saladin needed "three tractors to zone each of them".

That is another assumption. I'd tend to think it can change the angle very quickly to allow emergency maneuvering. But it shouldn't have to anyway. Consider that these "tractors" will be working together in an area denial anti-missile role. Using the analogy of an NFL defense, they would utilize a zone defense. Each emitter would be responsible for a specific area of space.

Also, consider that the LD may reorient itself to allow this defense. Just like a GA ship stands itself on its toes, perhaps an LD can reorient itself so all emitters create a shield of very intense gravity which deflects the energy from any missiles. And do also consider that the GA's targeting on an LD will be a guestimate. Or the LD might be in trouble regardless.

Jonathan_S wrote:While we're stuck working off of limited information, we know that a normal ship tractor covers an area smaller than a LAC[1] -- so probably less than 600 square meters -- and there's no reason to think a spider's overpowered tractor would be orders of magnitude larger in footprint.

But the area you'd need to sweep, at 50,000 km (laserhead standoff range) is - well - a lot larger than that. Like the better part of 11 million times larger than that!

That disparity means you're still going to need to aim the emitter at specific missiles; just sweeping it around isn't going to accomplish much. (Especially as there's no reason to expect that a drive component whose mount needs to handle pulling a non-trivial fraction of the ships mass is going to be able to pivot with the blinding speed of a PDLC mount -- the connection between the spider emitters and the rest of the hull needs to be designed for strength; not rapid aiming. So it probably can't sweep at particularly high angular rates)

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[1] Because Thunder of God/Saladin needed "three tractors to zone each of them".

Missile wedges are ~10-15 KM^3, so spacing between missiles, even at wedge burnout, is probably at least 20-30 KM between missiles so you don't get fratricide. The LAC mentioned was less than 140m x 25m x 25m, and ~9000 Tons

If we're assuming 3 tractors were required for mass/momentum purposes, then spreading out a single tractor to cover a plane 20x20KM is going to weaken the tractor force greatly. That LAC fills a cross sectional plane of less than 3500m^2, or roughly 1167m^2 per Tractor, with each tractor exerting ~2500kg/m^2 on a ship moving the same velocity as the mother ship (I guess we can assume ~350Gs accel). Spreading that same energy over an area sufficient to minimally catch 2 missiles (again a box 20km x 20Km, or 400,000,000m), gives a value of .0075Kg/m^2 against a 120 Ton device with a frontal surface area of less than 10m moving at a relative velocity of .5c.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:While we're stuck working off of limited information, we know that a normal ship tractor covers an area smaller than a LAC[1] -- so probably less than 600 square meters -- and there's no reason to think a spider's overpowered tractor would be orders of magnitude larger in footprint.

But the area you'd need to sweep, at 50,000 km (laserhead standoff range) is - well - a lot larger than that. Like the better part of 11 million times larger than that!

That disparity means you're still going to need to aim the emitter at specific missiles; just sweeping it around isn't going to accomplish much. (Especially as there's no reason to expect that a drive component whose mount needs to handle pulling a non-trivial fraction of the ships mass is going to be able to pivot with the blinding speed of a PDLC mount -- the connection between the spider emitters and the rest of the hull needs to be designed for strength; not rapid aiming. So it probably can't sweep at particularly high angular rates)

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[1] Because Thunder of God/Saladin needed "three tractors to zone each of them".

Missile wedges are ~10-15 KM^3, so spacing between missiles, even at wedge burnout, is probably at least 20-30 KM between missiles so you don't get fratricide. The LAC mentioned was less than 140m x 25m x 25m, and ~9000 Tons

If we're assuming 3 tractors were required for mass/momentum purposes, then spreading out a single tractor to cover a plane 20x20KM is going to weaken the tractor force greatly. That LAC fills a cross sectional plane of less than 3500m^2, or roughly 1167m^2 per Tractor, with each tractor exerting ~2500kg/m^2 on a ship moving the same velocity as the mother ship (I guess we can assume ~350Gs accel). Spreading that same energy over an area sufficient to minimally catch 2 missiles (again a box 20km x 20Km, or 400,000,000m), gives a value of .0075Kg/m^2 against a 120 Ton device with a frontal surface area of less than 10m moving at a relative velocity of .5c.

Jonathan says there are 8 to 12 emitters per skeg? For a total of 24 - 36 emitters?

Dunno if you meant literally "catch" them. But I was thinking more in terms of frying their electronics. Since they can damage unprotected ships which are much larger in volume.

At any rate, they might be able to take out the missiles that are assigned the highest threat level, same as the GA point defense does. But with that many emitters, they might even be able to simply create an area of high intense gravity that deflects energy weapons and or rip the missiles apart. That would have the effect of a wedge.

Working off of limited information.

I think we already do know how the LD's are designed to be deployed......the Sharks were the proof-of-concept testbeds and used to deliver a massive and stealthed strike against system wide targets.
Use Ghosts to gather the targeting data and creep the Spider Drive LDs into delivery vectors and release a variety of ballistic and spider driven weapons to saturate the target system with almost simultaneous arrival on targets down to individual dispersed yards and smaller stations. And one of those was a binary star system with three habitable planets and a lot of widespread industrial manufacturing and extraction, the Manticore Binary System.

Decimation does not begin to describe what Oyster Bay did. They also used the total available ships they could fill at the time. Just to be a bit more pointed, the Alignment went out of its way to just legally skirt around infixing an EE event on the three Manticorian planets. Next time they probably won't take that much care- just throw more weapons at more targets in any given system and not worry about that might miss a target hitting a planet. All that debris hitting the planet is just a bonus - it's only killing normals.

Brigade XO wrote:I think we already do know how the LD's are designed to be deployed......the Sharks were the proof-of-concept testbeds and used to deliver a massive and stealthed strike against system wide targets.
Use Ghosts to gather the targeting data and creep the Spider Drive LDs into delivery vectors and release a variety of ballistic and spider driven weapons to saturate the target system with almost simultaneous arrival on targets down to individual dispersed yards and smaller stations. And one of those was a binary star system with three habitable planets and a lot of widespread industrial manufacturing and extraction, the Manticore Binary System.

Decimation does not begin to describe what Oyster Bay did. They also used the total available ships they could fill at the time. Just to be a bit more pointed, the Alignment went out of its way to just legally skirt around infixing an EE event on the three Manticorian planets. Next time they probably won't take that much care- just throw more weapons at more targets in any given system and not worry about that might miss a target hitting a planet. All that debris hitting the planet is just a bonus - it's only killing normals.

The problem with that assumption, is for 95% of the targets, Warships are overkill. As I and others have pointed out many times, OB Could have been carried out with freighters and Ghosts. Manticore had a detection grid second to none, arrays even most tier one planets only wish they could have. The Shark's fancy maneuver to enter the Manticore system and launch their pods was just to get around that grid - practically any other systems would not have seen them, meaning their job could have been done much more cheaply and better by freighters to dump the Pods on their ballistic courses. IF you ignore the use of pods, and just use G-torps, their loiter capability and stealth drive means that they could be dumped out of any freighter, independent of whether it is out system or inside the hyperlimit.

Warships are only needed when you need to provide continuous fire control data, have to fire missiles under return fire, or when you are close enough to use energy weapons. As we saw in Beowulf, loiter munitions like G-torps and long duration pods could have been dropped off by prepared freighters - either in system or out system, and be a surprise no one expects, nor can their firing platforms be discerned until far after the battle.

So, Why build 100 insanely expensive specialized ships that maybe only have a couple dozen real targets in the entire universe?

No, there has to be more to their intended doctrine we're not seeing yet. Not that I'm saying this is not a role they were designed for, mind you - it just can't be the ONLY role.

penny wrote:That may be a bit presumptuous. We do not know if the specs regarding the tractors is an absolute; if whether the tractors may vary their influence when the LD is at motion versus when it is at rest. Or if the LD can spike (amp up) the tractors range in an emergency. "Gun the engine."

Right. We're based on a post by RFC saying that the range of the tractor is even less than the grav lance, which was 150,000 km. That thing is not a weapon, and it's not designed to be a weapon. Plus, an LD being attacked by missiles is likely going to see more missiles arriving than it has tractor emitters in the first place.

Maybe an off-shoot technology could be. That would be in line with what we know of how RFC develops them.

penny wrote:Both of you are making the same critical mistake again, by failing to understand that completely new tactics and strategy will be available to an enemy who has introduced a completely new paradigm of weapons.

You are basing your exchange rate on traditional tactics and strategy which is mainly based upon hardware and warships. The LDs can get very close to the enemy, and an exchange rate of only one GA ship is worth the exchange if that ship is commanded by the GA's most valuable officer. I would wager that killing Harrington would be worth the exchange rate of losing an LD for even just one GA ship.

I agree, Harrington is protected by plot. (Thank god.) But Henke and other very important officers (along with the blow to moral that losing those officers would bring) are not.

The MA can wage a war against one of the most valuable assets in the GA. They can go after the GA's most valuable and dangerous officers. Current and up and coming.

A war of attrition of the GA's top Tacticians and Strategists would change the outdated equation into a frightening exchange rate.

I maintain I don't see how any number of LDs could approach an RMN Battle Squadron and get into kissing range of the flagship without being detected by escorts first. If they instead go against unprepared targets and close only to energy range of half a million km, then you don't need an LD in the first place: a LAC can shoot its BC-grade graser and take out an unprotected SD.

I also don't think 20 LDs for one tactician is worth the exchange and don't think the MAN would make that calculation. Especially because this is taking 20 of your crews too, and could still backfire if the person in question survives by virtue of not being there.

The GA navies have far more people and far more hardware. In a war of attrition, they win, even if the people doing the winning are little better than mediocre.

penny wrote:Also, consider that the LD may reorient itself to allow this defense. Just like a GA ship stands itself on its toes, perhaps an LD can reorient itself so all emitters create a shield of very intense gravity which deflects the energy from any missiles. And do also consider that the GA's targeting on an LD will be a guestimate. Or the LD might be in trouble regardless.

So you mean the ship should present its biggest aspect to the oncoming missiles, thereby giving them more area to shoot at and improve their chances of hitting something?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Also, consider that the LD may reorient itself to allow this defense. Just like a GA ship stands itself on its toes, perhaps an LD can reorient itself so all emitters create a shield of very intense gravity which deflects the energy from any missiles. And do also consider that the GA's targeting on an LD will be a guestimate. Or the LD might be in trouble regardless.

So you mean the ship should present its biggest aspect to the oncoming missiles, thereby giving them more area to shoot at and improve their chances of hitting something?

Yeah, I thought about that too. When an arachnid raises its body to strike, its underbelly is slightly exposed.

But yes, that is exactly what it should do. IF my notion of an LD creating a very local, very intense area of gravity around its underbelly is viable. A very focused, intense area of gravity will simply deflect energy weapons. It would act like a wedge. Or the bullet proof vests worn by police. And then its normally smaller aspect would now be presented to missiles trying to maneuver for a shot over and under. Or stray missiles that have lost lock. The number of missiles over or under the LD should be far fewer, comparatively, and can be taken out by other means. Consider that any missile launch against an LD probably won't be locked on to anything anyway, they are flying blind hoping to hit something via plain old rotten luck.

It has been posted by someone that the range of the tractors are limited. Probably. But they might be able to pull in their horns and create a very focused gravity band close to the skin of the ship.

penny wrote:But yes, that is exactly what it should do. IF my notion of an LD creating a very local, very intense area of gravity around its underbelly is viable. A very focused, intense area of gravity will simply deflect energy weapons. It would act like a wedge. Or the bullet proof vests worn by police. And then its normally smaller aspect would now be presented to missiles trying to maneuver for a shot over and under. Or stray missiles that have lost lock. The number of missiles over or under the LD should be far fewer, comparatively, and can be taken out by other means. Consider that any missile launch against an LD probably won't be locked on to anything anyway, they are flying blind hoping to hit something via plain old rotten luck.

It has been posted by someone that the range of the tractors are limited. Probably. But they might be able to pull in their horns and create a very focused gravity band close to the skin of the ship.

Maybe. We have no way of knowing whether this is possible or not. Only RFC can make the determination of what is allowed in the physics of his universe.

However, even if it does work, it may be a one-time solution. Sufficient maybe for one LD or a squadron of them to escape, once. The next time, the attackers will attack from multiple vectors, converging on the target. The missiles will be slower individually, but the focused area of gravity can't be all around at once.