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What about DN(P)s for the GA?

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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:35 pm

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wastedfly wrote:Stating Vipers are fire and forget is akin to finally admitting water is wet. CM's are fire and forget outside of very basic positional data broadcast required.


Vipers' FAF capability is touted in textev as a major breakthrough. CMs on the other hand are limited by the number of links available to control them. If CMs were truly FAF they wouldn't need control links or updates from the launching ship.

wastedfly wrote:Why katana Launchers?


Because Katana launchers can handle the longer Viper and presumable any anti-missile variant thereof. Ferret and Shrike launchers may not be able to handle the longer missiles. A Ferret with eight Katana launchers would have awesome anti-LAC capability in addition to it's superiority in anti-missile tubes.
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by wastedfly   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:03 am

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Apparently you do not know what this :roll: icon means.

Who cares about anti LAC capability for this discussion? Ye Godz man. Why I wondered why you even bothered to specifically bring up the launchers. Talk about minutia and irrelevance.
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:23 am

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wastedfly wrote:Apparently you do not know what this :roll: icon means.


Apparently you forgot to put the :roll: anywhere near the question about Katana launchers, just as you skipped over the relevant point:

wastedfly wrote:Why katana Launchers?



Because Katana launchers can handle the longer Viper and presumably any anti-missile variant thereof.
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:26 am

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wastedfly wrote:Apparently you do not know what this :roll: icon means.

Who cares about anti LAC capability for this discussion? Ye Godz man. Why I wondered why you even bothered to specifically bring up the launchers. Talk about minutia and irrelevance.


I think the point he was trying to make is the older LACs (as listed) still fire the Mk 29/30s not the 31s or 32s, While the Katana can fire the Mk 31, giving it superior capabilities in the antimissile role (or a per missile basis).

However, LAC production will probably restart before warship production, and any new build Ferrets and Shrikes will probably be an upgraded design with all the latest goodies...

And while I'm here, as I mentioned several months ago an it appears you are mentioning above, Ferrets can always carry CM canister rounds as all or part of it's shipkiller loadout, increasing it's CM capability further.
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by wastedfly   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:37 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
wastedfly wrote:Apparently you do not know what this :roll: icon means.


Apparently you forgot to put the :roll: anywhere near the question about Katana launchers, just as you skipped over the relevant point:

wastedfly wrote:Why katana Launchers?

Because Katana launchers can handle the longer Viper and presumably any anti-missile variant thereof.


A LAC has no armor. Exchanging one launcher for another shooting the exact same diameter missile is no big deal. It is not like a wet navy ship where you have to worry about rolling moment of inertia(top heavy) thus limiting its launcher weight mods. ERGO, missile launcher discussion concerning LAC's is pointless. So they stick out a little farther. No big deal. May require slightly more power as has ability to launch larger objects potentially, but in this situation, the LAC/Ferret in question would launch the same smaller CM. If said Ferret II ever did load out with Vipers, would require a slower rate of fire as the power plant to launch so many larger objects would be strained. One launcher or the other is really pointless for this discussion other than as minuscia NITS.
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by wastedfly   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:41 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
wastedfly wrote:Apparently you do not know what this :roll: icon means.


Apparently you forgot to put the :roll: anywhere near


Apparently I edited it out... :oops:
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:41 am

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Theemile wrote:And while I'm here, as I mentioned several months ago an it appears you are mentioning above, Ferrets can always carry CM canister rounds as all or part of it's shipkiller loadout, increasing it's CM capability further.


Are there CM canisters sized for LAC Ship Killer tubes?
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:53 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Theemile wrote:And while I'm here, as I mentioned several months ago an it appears you are mentioning above, Ferrets can always carry CM canister rounds as all or part of it's shipkiller loadout, increasing it's CM capability further.


Are there CM canisters sized for LAC Ship Killer tubes?


We haven't seen them fired from LACS, but there are DD/CL canisters, which are approximately the same size (iirc, they had 3 CMs in them). Since the Mk 31 is smaller than the MK 29, Designing the canister should be just an engineering exercise, if it hasn't been designed.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:16 am

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MaxxQ wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Well Viper's almost have to be bigger (or at least longer) than Mk31 CMs. I'd be a bit surprised if the missile magazines were flexible enough to let you efficiently store either. So I wouldn't be surprised if a LAC designed around only carrying CMs could optimize the magazine for their exact dimentions and cram more in.


http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/C ... -465722583

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/C ... -465723044

Same diameter between Mk-31 and Viper
Thanks. I thought I remembered same diameter, which is why I threw in the parenthetical, but I guess I could have been clearer.

Still, seeing the renders again is cool.


But it'd still be tricky to have a magazine designed for the (looks to be roughly) 30% longer Viper be able to cram in additional Mk31s. The handling equipement would have to be able to squeeze the missiles closer and have the saved space add up to at least one additional missile length (and have 1 extra 'row' of handling equipment to handle the additional 'row' of shorter missiles. Not impossible, but I'm guessing more complexity than likely got built into the Kanatas. I've no doubt you can load an Katana up with a pure Mk31 loadout. I'd just be shocked if you got could fit much, if any, extra CMs by doing so. (Save you money though as long as you're sure you won't need to engage anything but missiles)
Weird Harold wrote:
wastedfly wrote:Stating Vipers are fire and forget is akin to finally admitting water is wet. CM's are fire and forget outside of very basic positional data broadcast required.


Vipers' FAF capability is touted in textev as a major breakthrough. CMs on the other hand are limited by the number of links available to control them. If CMs were truly FAF they wouldn't need control links or updates from the launching ship.
For what little it's worth Vipers fire and forget capabilities were mentioned specifically in reference to engaging other LACs. Those are quite different targets than MDMs.

On the one hand they've got better stealth; missile wedges are anything but subtle.
On the other hand LACs usually much lower closing velocity; so you launch from closer in, and they always have way lower acceleration, so they can produce a vastly smaller change in their current vector in the 75 seconds or so a Viper takes to reach them; less room to search if your lock goes fuzzy.
lyonheart wrote:Hi Jonathan_S,

The SD class PDLC's have more emitters than any other, for anti missile duties more than anti LAC; you may be confusing the Roland's 10 broadside lasers primary targets.

Given the velocity of the Mk-31/Viper, 53% more than the average missile, plus the Katana's stealth that reduces the enemies effective range so it has to come close means the Katana is indeed quite the LAC killer, yet we have no textev the differences between the Viper and Mk-31 require magazine differences.

L
I know that on an SD they do, but I had an (apparently erroneous) memory that the Katana's clusters were SD power (laser emitter diameter), but with fewer emitters clustered than an SD would.

For example (if I'm deciphering the model number correctly) the old Peep Duquesne-class SD used PDLCs that were a cluster of eight 16cm lasers. I was (again apparently erroniously) thinking the Katanas had a trio of clusters each with, say, four 16cm lasers. SD power, but not SD cyclic rate (due to reduced number of emitters per cluster)

But now I'm not sure how/where I got that impression because I've gone back and failed to find supporting text-ev. :o
At All Costs simply says "equipped with what were for all intents and purposes a trio of superdreadnought point defense laser clusters"
(But that's where I was coming from. oops)
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:50 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Vipers' FAF capability is touted in textev as a major breakthrough. CMs on the other hand are limited by the number of links available to control them. If CMs were truly FAF they wouldn't need control links or updates from the launching ship.


For what little it's worth Vipers fire and forget capabilities were mentioned specifically in reference to engaging other LACs. Those are quite different targets than MDMs.


Yes, I know that. I wasn't very clear that currently it doesn't apply to anti-missile employment. There have been some learned discussion in the past about why FAF is more difficult for anti-missile use; IIRC, none have completely eliminated it as a future development, just eliminated it with state-of-the-art guidance systems.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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