lyonheart wrote:Hi DarkEnigma,
No I don't think you want to bury this right now, so in answer to your points, consider the following:
1) This has been answered repeatedly, but did you read the pearls or RFC 's comments?
Given the republic has succeeded at whatever cost to build one of the two most powerful navies in existence in just a few years after being faced with military defeat without foreign help, ought to indicate the power of the republic's now unfettered economy, yet you keep missing all the clues.
2) Looking at the number of countries currently putting up with 'presidents' etc who have violated their local constitutions and or election laws to stay in power despite evidence the public would prefer for them to step down, ie given the general human preference to accept some potential tyranny for some internal peace, it's not too surprising that after almost 450 years of a system, people are willing to wait a while to see how things turn out.
The fact that Elisabeth didn't call on the commoners to revolt and wipe out the Conservatives, Progressives and Liberals went a long way to ending any immediate urge to start stringing them up as you so desperately want.
3) Haven also had some recon intel on what the SDP's, CLAC's, and LAC's looked like, probably including how the pods were jettisoned etc; and not being stupid could figure out what the RMN had done.
If you've read the pearls on Bolthole and what Shannon did and didn't do, you'd remember how minimal her 'fixes' were; the RHN SDP's only carry 400 pods, not the 500+ the RMN and GSN's do etc, so the structural changes left as much as possible of the current ex-peep design the same.
4) "Quickly gets out of hand?" The civil war took around 3 years, the peace talks had dragged on for more than 4 years when she decided on Thunderbolt; for just how long do you think she should have waited when the congressional 'war party' was pushing her for a resumption, and High Ridge was doing everything he could to delay the elections that he knew he would lose?
Perhaps a review of President Madison's predicament and the start of the war of 1812 might be in order.
5) This has been answered repeatedly, including by RFC himself, but you have evidently further confused it in your mind, which doesn't surprise me at this point.
First, Haven hadn't manipulated the diplomatic correspondence when Cromarty was assassinated in 1915, that wasn't until 1919.
Second, the MAlign's assassination and attempts didn't happen until 1921, well into the second war if you didn't remember.
Third, Grendlesbane was destroyed in 1919 during Thunderbolt, when the RMN then had no chance of defeating the RHN; that's why they had to bring in the Andermanni, and splitting up Silesia was the price for that, remember?
Buttercup demonstrated the peeps had been defeated militarily and were no longer an immediate or existential threat, something Elisabeth had been facing for more than 30 years; so she had time to wait for High Ridge to destroy himself as she was confident he would.
After BoMA, there were a few other concerns to throw into the pot you keep forgetting; like Monica, New Tuscany, NTM how Manpower Inc, Mesa, NTM the SL were were behaving, which all changed the calculus of what the SEM had to deal with.
A thrashed Haven very willing to share its mil-tech with the SL was the last thing Elisabeth and her advisers wanted, but you do for some reason.
If Haven is no longer the greatest threat, is a real long term peace treaty mutually beneficial possible?
One of her best friends who's advice has always been good thinks so, so Elisabeth is willing to risk if it may cover her back when dealing with the SL, the 800 kilogram gorilla you keep seeming to forget.
6) RFC has dealt with this, you just don't seem to be listening; the republic has now had 7 years or things working better than they ever have in everyone's memory, and you think they're going to scrap it to bring back the misery of the peep's?
You might want to review the early republican period of the USA [1790's], when the citizen's pride and optimism in our nation was considerably greater than most have today.
Pretty much nobody wanted to bring back George III.
7) Again, you aren't paying attention.
At what point in time does a country go from fragile to strong in your eyes?
Do we have to wait 25 or 50 years before we no longer consider them fragile?
Sorry, real life doesn't permit that luxury, so why do you keep bringing it up?
But if you're the head of state, you deal with the cards you get including however old your nearest potential threat may be.
8) There is quite a bit of relief on both sides you're ignoring, but the RoH obviously thought it was time when they accepted Honor's offer, the SEM in relief that they wouldn't face the SL alone, so a win-win for both that each understands quite easily, except for you.
Honor, as another poster pointed out very well, has been critical to this path of reconciliation, and history is replete with many examples of the 'great man' being an actor for decades so you should be used to it, if you're a student of history.
Yes, RFC's original 20 year timeline was compressed as a result of FtH; you should have noticed the repeated mentioning of the changes triggered by that story.
I among others had hoped for the original notes dealing with that intention to be printed, since they weren't pertinent to the series as it now stands; but RFC decided to hold onto those, probably because he always keeps his hole cards close.
L
DarkEnigma wrote:I was all set to let this thread die and move on (I swear!), but one of the quotes in the "Honorverse Favorite Passages" thread crystallized one final point in my brain. It isn't really an argument: more an observation.
We have gone over the events which lead to the formation of the Grand Alliance with a fine-toothed comb, and for the most part, every issue myself and others have brought up does have a plausible reasoning behind it. However, when you string them all together, things start to seem perhaps a bit too convenient.
1) Haven's economy recovers such that the impetus which drove it into conquest is absent and thus allows Haven to end the war without suffering catastrophic collapse (as well as fund their triumphant return to parity militarily with Manticore).
2) High Ridge seizes power and promptly accepts Saint-Just's offer of cease-fire with all out victory only weeks away (He does this despite the opportunity to be the Prime Minister who "won the war" and co-opt decades of Cromarty's hard work. The people of Manticore accept his decision and do not feel that this is a disrespect to the men and women who lost their lives in the war).
3) Haven had Bolthole, primed with raw materials, engineers, supply chain, funding, et cetera which put them in prime position to capitalize on High Ridge's rank stupidity in very short order.
4) Pritchart, for whatever combination of reasons, starts down a path of increasingly aggressive stances towards Manticore which quickly (predictably?) gets out of hand.
5) Despite Haven killing her father and her Prime Minister, despite knowing Haven manipulated correspondence, despite the assassination attempts on Torch and Old Terra (et cetera, et cetera), Queen Elizabeth gives up the opportunity to finish off Haven twice and allows herself to be talked into letting Haven off the hook after Buttercup, and again after Gendelsbane, and again after the Battle of Manticore.
6) After being largely politically apathetic under the Legislaturalists, and learning to distrust their central government under the Committee for Public Safety, the people of Haven quickly rally behind and become positively engaged in the new Republic despite its unproven and fragile nature.
7) After the Legislaturalists and the CPS both meet their demise at the point of a gun, Manticoran leaders are quickly convinced that that won't happen to the new Republic despite its unproven and fragile nature.
8) The people of both Haven and Manticore are ready and willing to bury the hatchet when their leaders deem it is time to do so.
There are probably other lynchpins that I am missing but I think you can see my point. As I said before, each of these has a plausible explanation, and, when looked at in isolation, makes perfect sense. However, If any of the links in this chain did not exist, Haven and Manticore probably do not end up bosom buddies (or at least not nearly as quickly).
I suppose that my major complaint is that, overall, the transition of Haven from bitter enemy to ally feels contrived. There is an overall sense that the events are not "organic" but rather that people and events are shoehorned towards a predestined conclusion IMHO. I hope you will believe me when I say that the preceding post was not borne of sour grapes but rather an attempt to express genuine opinion.
P.S. The quote which got me thinking about all this was this one:
**quote="cthia"**Regarding the reason of why Elizabeth should trust Eloise is echoed in this passage...
A Rising Thunder
**quote**
“Oh, I’m not worried about that.”
Elizabeth waved one hand. She and Pritchart had discussed the president’s concerns in detail, and the empress was convinced the other woman was worrying unduly. Yes, the Battle of Manticore had killed an enormous number of people, but far fewer than the Yawata Strike, and all of them had been military casualties. Unlike the people behind the Yawata Strike, the Republic had scrupulously avoided preventable civilian casualties. After fifteen T-years fighting the People’s Republic, even the most anti-Havenite Manticoran had been only too well aware of what a change that represented, and the contrast with the slaughter of the Yawata Strike only underscored the difference. Say what the most bigoted Manticoran might, the restored Republic had fought its war with honor, and the majority of Manticorans knew it.**quote****quote**
The reason this passage clicked something in my brain is because it feels a bit too determinative. There is a hint of "because I said so" behind every sentence. People can often be irrationally emotional after all (honorably conducted or not, after Grendelsbane, the Battle of Manticore, et cetera Manticorans would have some justification for residual resentments).
The real world is often messy and people are often unpredictable which sometimes leads to less-than-perfect outcomes despite the best of intentions. The events which put Manticore and Haven on the fast-track to BFF status, however, feel just a bit contrived overall. It is, however, the only issue of consequence in this very lengthy series which strikes me so. IMHO. YMMV.
Sorry... just *had* to do it.