Commerce raiding

tlb wrote:Yes, I know all three of those things. I also know that there is a point in the war when Manticore has pods that can be tractored to ships, while Haven is still limited to internal launchers. That means that even cruisers can do an initial launch that is massive (which is the Alpha launch mentioned) compared to what Havenite BB's or larger can launch. Obviously the smaller ships then have to flee, because after the pods are flushed the smaller ships cannot compete with just their internal launchers and smaller magazines.

How many pods can an SD tractor? What about a BC? CA? CL? DD?

So they retreat to wherever Manticore has the big ships concentrated and a force is put together, loaded down with pods, and sent to push Haven off whatever system that they had just conquered.

The RHN sends in overwhelming force of battleships with screen and those ships are not retreating anywhere. By the logic of everyone here the RHN should have sat on their hnbads, lost the war one system at a time because the RMN had missile pods and that is a god weapon that cannot be overcome and they had it everywhere in overwhelming numbers.

1 SD can carry a limited number of pods, 1 BC can carry less pods, 1 CA can carry less pods and 1 DD can carry less than the cruiser...

The whole point of using BB's is to use them in OVERWHELMING numbers, attack in conjunction with SD's and DN's and force Manticore to defend all their allies. If every alliance member is screaming for waller support the RMN would be forces to disperse their strength then use the SD's and DN's and BB's to destroy those individual pockets of resistance.

With luck Haven's ships are faced with another Alpha launch before they go, causing damage that whittles Haven's ship advantage even more.

So you fire off everything once and then fire everything again? How exactly does that work? I have 1,000 pods, fire them once at the beginning and then fire the same exact 1,000 pods at the end as well? I don't think that's how it works.

The big ships return to the concentration area (which would a base like Hancock. Why would you even guess "Forts? DD's? Frigates?" ?), leaving the cruiser force (with pods) to picket the recovered system.

How many pods? How many cruisers? Where do they get the infinite number of cruisers from?

If I sent in a force of 80 BB's plus escort against a picket of BC's, CA's, CL's and DD's my force won't be concentrated all in one big unit, I will have enough o force them to retreat and wait until they are committed then drop a second, third and fourth force to make sure they don't escape. If 80 is not enough send in 160 or 240 for the same attack because they would be doing a lot more than splitting those same 240 BB's into penny packets where they can't change the outcome of the war or are actually used for political reasons in places they are not required.

Manticore manufacturing cannot create an infinite number of pods, but they can create enough to supply the needs.

So every system had enough pods to defend itself? So was Zanzibar an impregnable fortress? And if it was, how exactly did 24 BB's and 16 BC's manage to destroy 6 SD's and 6 BC's? If they managed to wipe out a picket in 1912 using BBs why couldn't they do the same in 1911 or 1910 or 1909 or 1908? Sure in 1912 they had pods, but using 48 BB's or 96 BB's would have given them enough of a punch to absolutely crush the picket.


If the RMN had enough pods to be able to crush any attacking force then they definitely should have had enough in Zanzibar and Alizon to destroy a small force of BB's and apparently they didn't.

Sigs wrote:

tlb wrote:If there is a major disadvantage because Manticore can launch Alpha strikes using their pods, which Haven cannot equal; then Haven should be more cautious, until they have similar pods. Adding more targets when being overwhelmed by a massive missile strike, does not seem like winning strategy; even if Manticore is also losing ships.

Did the RMN have the ability to launch massive alpha strikes in every system? Or was this limited to some systems initially?

The RHN wouldn't be able to equal alpha strikes even when they got pods because a defended that had 10,000 pods will beat an attacker with a limited pods. A defender well stocked with pods has a more impressive spray and pray than an attacker with pods even in the SD(P) era.

For the era where you were advocating using BBs offensively more - prior to the loss of Trevor's Star - the Peeps hadn't yet gotten missile pods. So the RMN had a monopoly on those -- making the question of whether an attacker or defender would have more pods moot for that period; the RMN would have more because only they had any.

That said not all RMN forces would be able to launch alpha strikes of the same size. And many might not be what you'd consider massive. (Massive for the tonnage of ships throwing them, but not necessarily massive compared to that the other fleet can defend against)

Early on each BC could manage to control maybe 10 pods; though without unacceptable loss of acceleration could only tow 5-7 depending on the age and upgrade status of the BC. I think a DN or SD could control at least 30. But unless you have truely ludicrous numbers of pods to waste there's little reason to launch an Alpha Strike larger than your ships' fire control can manage (especially of those old SDMs which weren't as capable or autonomous attack as the later MDMs had to be). So a smaller picket is going to have fewer, and smaller, ships and so launch a far smaller Alpha Strike than a larger picket, which in turn would have a much smaller Alpha Strike than a fleet would.

But no, pods certainly didn't make systems invulnerable -- even in the period where the RMN had its monopoly on them. It "just" let them inflict disproportionate losses in the right situation; so the attrition was in their net favor. But because they didn't make systems invulnerable, nor offset major differences in force size, if the attacking force was overwhelming most RMN officers would retreat, even from allied system regardless of their pods.

If it was close enough in power they'd at least court a passing missile engagement (though that went very poorly for the incompetent who tried in right after the Peeps finally got towed pods of their own) to use their pods to inflict disproportionate damage and make it easier to retake the system. If a little closer than they they might seek a longer missile engagement, seeing if they can follow up on the initial impact of the pods using their generally superior missiles; but willing to break off once they took too much damage or losses.

So showing up with overwhelming force might get you a system, without even a fight, (which you then feel obligated to dilute your forces to defend) but it doesn't advance the goal of grinding down the enemy fleet to the point where you feel you can risk a move on their capital.

Sigs wrote:I don't think we can compare the PRH to Russia. The initial offensive wasn't beaten back because the PRN was not capable or prepared, the offensive was beaten back because they got too fancy, went in a dozen different directions and fell in love with their genius. If the initial offensive had focused on one target without giving a heads up to the RMN and trying to maneuver them.

Concentrating a massive force for one attack on 2nd Fleet, crush it and in 1 afternoon the RMN loses 1/4 of their active wallers.

Though Manticore was heavily scouting the Peep fleet bases. If they'd concentrated a massive force that would almost certainly have been seen and the RMN would have concentrated to face it. They still might have lost; but you can't assume that the Peeps could pull together a massive fleet and that Manticore wouldn't react until it hit one of their forces.

(And a massive fleet that sailed all unsuspecting into the face of a massive towed pod launch from the concentrated RMN fleet might break and flee with major losses - force concentration multiplies the effect of those towed pods)

Jonathan_S wrote:I'd want 5-6 BCs (or better yet a full 8 ship BatCruRon), or a load of towed pods, before taking 1st war BCs up against a Triumphant.

Sure. Thanks for the passage.

I do note in this scenario the BCs were caught at unawares. But probably not point-blank range: missiles would be slow at that range and would be easy to pick-off. Moreover, the BB needs to be aware it could be detected at any second, so it couldn't want for the closest approach.

The BCs probably turned wedge-on, but since they can't run away, they'd have to endure salvo after salvo of capital ship missile.

Sigs wrote:The RHN sends in overwhelming force of battleships with screen and those ships are not retreating anywhere. By the logic of everyone here the RHN should have sat on their hnbads, lost the war one system at a time because the RMN had missile pods and that is a god weapon that cannot be overcome and they had it everywhere in overwhelming numbers.

What overwhelming force of battleships? You keep bringing this tactic when all evidence points to there being no massive force of battleships available in the first place. You can argue all you want that they should have had them -- and I agree with you -- but they didn't.

We should argue instead for sending a massive force of superdreadnoughts.

No one is arguing that the RMN could have won the war outright because of pods. They could have won the war in the beginning because the PN was in entire disarray and the few remaining flag officers were ready to welcome the RMN into their systems and surrender, while others were going to become warlords.

How many pods? How many cruisers? Where do they get the infinite number of cruisers from?

Apparently from the same place you're getting the battleships. The RMN had 333 heavy cruisers before the war and those weren't tied to rear system defence. So, by the same logic, the RMN has more CAs available to picket duty than the PN had of battleships.

A defending picket does not have to tow the pods. The incoming force must come to them, so they can fire far more pods than they can tow.

But if the CO of the CruRon doesn't wait to die for no reason, they won't do even that if the incoming force is overwhelming for however many pods they had. They'd just blow the pods up and skip town.

If I sent in a force of 80 BB's plus escort against a picket of BC's, CA's, CL's and DD's my force won't be concentrated all in one big unit, I will have enough o force them to retreat and wait until they are committed then drop a second, third and fourth force to make sure they don't escape. If 80 is not enough send in 160 or 240 for the same attack because they would be doing a lot more than splitting those same 240 BB's into penny packets where they can't change the outcome of the war or are actually used for political reasons in places they are not required.

Why send BBs? Send your superdreadnoughts!

So every system had enough pods to defend itself? So was Zanzibar an impregnable fortress? And if it was, how exactly did 24 BB's and 16 BC's manage to destroy 6 SD's and 6 BC's? If they managed to wipe out a picket in 1912 using BBs why couldn't they do the same in 1911 or 1910 or 1909 or 1908? Sure in 1912 they had pods, but using 48 BB's or 96 BB's would have given them enough of a punch to absolutely crush the picket.

No, every system was not impregnable. But the PN force does not know how many pods each system has: it can be any number from 0 to 1000. That means it has to plan for the worst and bring the biggest force it can muster.

In 1908, the PN neither had pods nor competent officers. Maybe if Parnell had planned this with his actually competent people, it could have worked. But the McQueen did not have competent officers to trust on this. She ran Operation Stalking Horse herself because of this.

Another point is whether the BBs could have been made available. For all his faults, Pierre's reforms were actually working. So in 1912, many enough systems might have been pacified and become content with their lot that the BBs could be dispatched from their rear area duties. Not so in 1908.

tlb wrote:So they retreat to wherever Manticore has the big ships concentrated and a force is put together, loaded down with pods, and sent to push Haven off whatever system that they had just conquered.

With luck Haven's ships are faced with another Alpha launch before they go, causing damage that whittles Haven's ship advantage even more.

Sigs wrote:So you fire off everything once and then fire everything again? How exactly does that work? I have 1,000 pods, fire them once at the beginning and then fire the same exact 1,000 pods at the end as well? I don't think that's how it works.

If you hadn't broken up the post, you would have seen that the second Alpha launch happens when this second force arrives and pushes Haven's ships back off the system that they had just retaken.

Jonathan_S wrote:But unless you have truely ludicrous numbers of pods to waste there's little reason to launch an Alpha Strike larger than your ships' fire control can manage (especially of those old SDMs which weren't as capable or autonomous attack as the later MDMs had to be). So a smaller picket is going to have fewer, and smaller, ships and so launch a far smaller Alpha Strike than a larger picket, which in turn would have a much smaller Alpha Strike than a fleet

I saw someone speculate that it would not necessarily be an Alpha launch and might be limited to the number of control links available. In this period when pods are being towed; they have to be fired before the first wave arrives from the enemy, otherwise they can be lost. So the first launch from Manticore's ships will be whatever is in the pods and and subsequent launches will come from the ships' internal tubes.

We do see Haven (once they had pods) use each link to control multiple missiles through a time sharing approach. But even without that, it would be better to launch more than can be controlled, than to have them blown up in the pods.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:But unless you have truely ludicrous numbers of pods to waste there's little reason to launch an Alpha Strike larger than your ships' fire control can manage (especially of those old SDMs which weren't as capable or autonomous attack as the later MDMs had to be). So a smaller picket is going to have fewer, and smaller, ships and so launch a far smaller Alpha Strike than a larger picket, which in turn would have a much smaller Alpha Strike than a fleet

I saw someone speculate that it would not necessarily be an Alpha launch and might be limited to the number of control links available. In this period when pods are being towed; they have to be fired before the first wave arrives from the enemy, otherwise they can be lost. So the first launch from Manticore's ships will be whatever is in the pods and and subsequent launches will come from the ships' internal tubes.

We do see Haven (once they had pods) use each link to control multiple missiles through a time sharing approach. But even without that, it would be better to launch more than can be controlled, than to have them blown up in the pods.

In the era where pods need to be towed (no self-tractoring pods, no donkyes) you usually can't tow more than you can control (at least not at any reasonable stealth or acceleration)

About the only time I think you'd have excess pods, beyond what you can control, is if you were defending a supply base or something where fleet resupply was stocked up. And even then you can't bring it with you when you go out to engage the enemy. (Though if you anticipate a sufficient acceleration advantage you might disperse some pods in various spots around the system in the hope of being able to disengage long enough to go grab a fresh set and return to the fight -- otherwise I guess leave the excess set as a giant ranged minefield and hope you can lure the enemy into it)

Jonathan_S wrote:Some of it may be their BB's sluggish acceleration; they're 10% slower than even a BC; and thus have relatively low overtake against fast freighters.

Plus even early war you could counter them with having a few of the freighter haul along pods to drop for the escorts. Even a pair of BBs is going to be hurting if the cruisers escorting a convoy dump a dozen missile pods into their face.

And to tlb's point, even if the League didn't object to raiding Manticoran commerce within their borders, outside of fleet train convoys, most of Manticore's commerce went straight through the Junction -- so ships attempting to raid it need to travel many months through hyperspace just to get to the far termini where the freighter traffic pops out to begin it's hyperspace trips.

I don't know if battleships were optimized for long range patrols like cruisers and BCs were. But even with ships designed for long range patrols pushing them that far from your maintenance, fuel, repair, and supply bases isn't easy. (And given Haven's internal political unrest if you'd pulled BBs to, say, supplement the one commerce raiding mission we know they pulled in Silesia you've got to come up with enough replacement force that potential rioters/insurrectionists remain deterred by the iron boot looming overhead)

The other problem for Haven is that with the Junction Manticore can potentially exploit it extreme internal lines to cut loose DNs or SDs from home fleet, show up in the commerce raiding area and crush the BBs, then be back before Haven knows those ships were diverted (much less before they could warn the BBs about the wallers).

Why does that remind me of the fact that the Somalian gunboats attacking Cruise Ships are beginning to be met with machine guns installed onto the rails.

But yeah, I asked why the RHN were sitting on that huge surplus of BBs. Didn't they have a HOLOTANK? Move some pieces around the board. May as well send them all to Pearl Harbor.

Anyway, Jonathan, when commerce raiding you are taking a chance. Can't win them all. Won't win them all. That's why you've got to put some thought in picking your targets. Can armed freighters (is carrying pods considered armed?) operate in all systems?

Jonathan_S wrote:In the era where pods need to be towed (no self-tractoring pods, no donkyes) you usually can't tow more than you can control (at least not at any reasonable stealth or acceleration)

About the only time I think you'd have excess pods, beyond what you can control, is if you were defending a supply base or something where fleet resupply was stocked up. And even then you can't bring it with you when you go out to engage the enemy. (Though if you anticipate a sufficient acceleration advantage you might disperse some pods in various spots around the system in the hope of being able to disengage long enough to go grab a fresh set and return to the fight -- otherwise I guess leave the excess set as a giant ranged minefield and hope you can lure the enemy into it)

Admittedly the number that you can tow in this period is often less than the number that you can control; particularly among the smaller warships. But I doubt that any commander would refuse to bring along an extra pod (or more), because of that limitation. One can always hope that the excess missiles can be handed off to a ship that had unused control links or possibly save some for a second launch if the enemy was tardy in shooting back.

In TSVW, they left actual mines in a minefield, I do not remember an example of doing that with pods. Do pods have an IFF feature that would enable autonomous firing, if an enemy got too close? Otherwise if they have to be commanded to fire, how close would the enemy have to be to be automatically acquired by the missile; since this does not seem like a situation for control links? What if the pods are pointing wrong (mines must have some sensor controlled rotation ability)?

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:In the era where pods need to be towed (no self-tractoring pods, no donkyes) you usually can't tow more than you can control (at least not at any reasonable stealth or acceleration)

About the only time I think you'd have excess pods, beyond what you can control, is if you were defending a supply base or something where fleet resupply was stocked up. And even then you can't bring it with you when you go out to engage the enemy. (Though if you anticipate a sufficient acceleration advantage you might disperse some pods in various spots around the system in the hope of being able to disengage long enough to go grab a fresh set and return to the fight -- otherwise I guess leave the excess set as a giant ranged minefield and hope you can lure the enemy into it)

Admittedly the number that you can tow in this period is often less than the number that you can control; particularly among the smaller warships. But I doubt that any commander would refuse to bring along an extra pod (or more), because of that limitation. One can always hope that the excess missiles can be handed off to a ship that had unused control links or possibly save some for a second launch if the enemy was tardy in shooting back.

In TSVW, they left actual mines in a minefield, I do not remember an example of doing that with pods. Do pods have an IFF feature that would enable autonomous firing, if an enemy got too close? Otherwise if they have to be commanded to fire, how close would the enemy have to be to be automatically acquired by the missile; since this does not seem like a situation for control links? What if the pods are pointing wrong (mines must have some sensor controlled rotation ability)?

They now used "minefields" of missile pods at the MBS junction in place of the old mines - I assume they are IFF based, but I'm not certain.

Theemile wrote:They now used "minefields" of missile pods at the MBS junction in place of the old mines - I assume they are IFF based, but I'm not certain.

What period of the war is "now", before the capture of Trevor's Star or after the formation of the Grand Alliance? Also is it a regular pod that ships use or a system defense pod (that must have extra capabilities, to include its own fusion reactor)?