"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

Eagleeye wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Chin had 8 Dreadnoughts, 6 Battlecruisers, and a (light) screen of Heavy and Light Cruisers, no Destroyers.

Sarnow had 8 Battlecruisers, 8 Heavy Cruisers, and an unknown strength of Light Cruisers, excluding the additional Light Cruisers and Destroyers that had been detached in singletons as "pickets" to hide the presence of the FTL net.

The opening salvo's from just the missile pods that could be towed by the BC's and CA's was enough to almost totally wreck one DN outright, and crippled another, with light damage on three or four others. So even a single division of DN's that could have joined the original force, would have towed enough pods by itself to account for at least one more DN kill outright, and their internal launchers (with their bigger missiles) would have guaranteed at least one more hard DN kill between the minefield and the scatter point.

Remember, Sarnow's BC's dished out the beating they did purely with cruiser-weight missiles, if they'd had the bigger capital missiles, they would have "won" well before the scatter point because their superior penaids and larger capital missiles could truly hurt the DNs, while the aid of even two DN's to the Task Group missile defense would have decreased the casualties taken considerably.

Of course, if we're looking at equation changes, and put a squadron of Sag-C's and replaced all the Star Knights and older heavy cruisers that were actually in Hancock, with their Mk 16 Mod-G's.... Chin's Dreadnoughts wouldn't have even made it to the minefield, and surviving the initial pod salvo would have been; shall we say about the same level of luck as the Prince Adrian surviving in Adler took.

The missiles in the pods ... were they SD/DN-style missiles (Mk 19, according to Jayne's) or were they Cruiser-style missiles (Mk 13, according to Jayne's)? I would think, the pods used Mk 19 missiles, in other words: missiles with much more punch than the on-board-ones the Homers and Reliants could fire. No wonder, that salvo could more or less mission-kill one of Chin's DNs and damage another!

And after the minefield ... no, the cruisers could not really hurt the surviving DNs. Not decisively, at least. They were a nuisance, true, and more than that for the heavy damaged units, courtesy of the pods and the minefield. But without Danislav's DNs Haven would have won.

And if you change the gameplan and use Sag-Cs and Mk-16 Mod-Gs for Manticore, you have to use Havens own new bells and whistles, too. Say, the new defensive doctrine and hardware, developed by Admiral Foraker. Or their own MDMs. Or their Warloard-BCs for screen instead of the old Tigers or Sultans. With that (and without Danislavs arrival, too), I'm convinced, Haven still would've won.

The initial pod missiles were indeed capital DN/SD missiles which is what allowed the battlecruisers to dish out such a tremendous blow. The 8 battlecruisers and 8 heavy cruisers between them, carried enough pods to launch more missiles than 2 squadrons of Sphinx superdreadnoughts could have launched with broadsides.

But entirely after that, it took the whole Task Group pounding on the one crippled dreadnought to finish mission killing it, and then pounding on a third, before Danislav had arrived and went to a intercept course. With the introduction of just the single division of DNs (more towing capability + big ass wedge to tow inside before the ballistic coast phase), in addition to internal launchers nothing else changed Chin would have been wiped out by the scatter point. All other things being the same.

And Manticore assumed it wasn't going to win, the only thing Danislav's arrival did was delay the planned scatter by 15 minutes or so. Coincidentally, Pavel Young would never have been charged with cowardice in the face of the enemy because he'd have already received orders to scatter by then.

If we changed part of the squadron to the GSN Courvosier's, the first 4 we saw were just about to commission in Field of Dishonor, did mount capital grasers instead of cruiser mixed graser/laser. And Manticore had started creating mixed squadrons by FiD and later, so a very very tiny delay in First Hancock could have put capital graser armed battlecruisers in BatCruRon5's order of battle.

Completely correct, but it still misses the point made upthread: if there _had_ been DNs in-system at the start of the attack, Rollins would have gone after them with his entire force instead of holding the SDs out near the hyper-limit the way he did. He made that decision precisely because it was "only" BCs that he had to deal with. Which would have changed the situation drastically. Although, interestingly, it could have changed it in Rollins' disfavor in the end - if the Manty commander had still been able to draw things out the way Sarnow and Honor did, Rollins would have been caught at Hancock when Sir Yancey came back, rather than hypering out again.

Somtaaw wrote:
The initial pod missiles were indeed capital DN/SD missiles which is what allowed the battlecruisers to dish out such a tremendous blow. The 8 battlecruisers and 8 heavy cruisers between them, carried enough pods to launch more missiles than 2 squadrons of Sphinx superdreadnoughts could have launched with broadsides.

But entirely after that, it took the whole Task Group pounding on the one crippled dreadnought to finish mission killing it, and then pounding on a third, before Danislav had arrived and went to a intercept course. With the introduction of just the single division of DNs (more towing capability + big ass wedge to tow inside before the ballistic coast phase), in addition to internal launchers nothing else changed Chin would have been wiped out by the scatter point. All other things being the same.

And Manticore assumed it wasn't going to win, the only thing Danislav's arrival did was delay the planned scatter by 15 minutes or so. Coincidentally, Pavel Young would never have been charged with cowardice in the face of the enemy because he'd have already received orders to scatter by then.

If we changed part of the squadron to the GSN Courvosier's, the first 4 we saw were just about to commission in Field of Dishonor, did mount capital grasers instead of cruiser mixed graser/laser. And Manticore had started creating mixed squadrons by FiD and later, so a very very tiny delay in First Hancock could have put capital graser armed battlecruisers in BatCruRon5's order of battle.

Rollins moved when he thought everything else had left. Danislav arrived with a 10 ship strong squadron, reinforced by an extra division Manticore managed to scare up before Danislav departed. That single division could also have been sent on ahead, arriving before Danislav, and quite possibly even before Rollins. Which actually would have meant Rollins couldn't have known until he arrived and checked the sensor net prior to his "big" arrival.

Which actually is one of those things that glossed over, they were sending single light cruisers out to check them, and they had to come coasting in for days just to get close.... but Rollins took 3 squadrons of SD's, a squadron each of DN and BC + full screen. And NOBODY spotted that hyper event prior to them arriving on a "least-time course from Seaford Nine", despite that detour to check the Argus net?

Aside from that glaring plot hole, if Rollins could have gotten close enough to query the Argus net without being detected, a single division of DN's could have arrived early and been missed by the Argus net, leading to Chin being sent on ahead as planned. The end force actually wouldn't have changed, Danislav had 10 DN's when he arrived in the books, if the extra's had arrived early, Task Group Hancock-001 would have had 2 DN's in order of battle, plus Danislav would have arrived with 8 for a total of 10.

And in this timeline, Rollins actually would have gotten screwed because when he realized 2 DN's had ambushed Chin's 8, he would immediately have started moving to assist and been deep in the Hancock gravity well when Admiral Parks showed up. Instead of having already gone to maxium evasion when Danislav arrives and hypered out just before Parks could engage him.

This chain of events would have reverted back to the book plot timeline. Parks plus Danislav would still have moved on the weak Seaford to crush it, returned back to Hancock (and coincidentally encountering Coatsworth thinking Rollins holds the system) and book plot continues on with Field of Dishonor.

Louis R wrote:Completely correct, but it still misses the point made upthread: if there _had_ been DNs in-system at the start of the attack, Rollins would have gone after them with his entire force instead of holding the SDs out near the hyper-limit the way he did. He made that decision precisely because it was "only" BCs that he had to deal with. Which would have changed the situation drastically. Although, interestingly, it could have changed it in Rollins' disfavor in the end - if the Manty commander had still been able to draw things out the way Sarnow and Honor did, Rollins would have been caught at Hancock when Sir Yancey came back, rather than hypering out again.

Somtaaw wrote:
The initial pod missiles were indeed capital DN/SD missiles which is what allowed the battlecruisers to dish out such a tremendous blow. The 8 battlecruisers and 8 heavy cruisers between them, carried enough pods to launch more missiles than 2 squadrons of Sphinx superdreadnoughts could have launched with broadsides.

But entirely after that, it took the whole Task Group pounding on the one crippled dreadnought to finish mission killing it, and then pounding on a third, before Danislav had arrived and went to a intercept course. With the introduction of just the single division of DNs (more towing capability + big ass wedge to tow inside before the ballistic coast phase), in addition to internal launchers nothing else changed Chin would have been wiped out by the scatter point. All other things being the same.

And Manticore assumed it wasn't going to win, the only thing Danislav's arrival did was delay the planned scatter by 15 minutes or so. Coincidentally, Pavel Young would never have been charged with cowardice in the face of the enemy because he'd have already received orders to scatter by then.

If we changed part of the squadron to the GSN Courvosier's, the first 4 we saw were just about to commission in Field of Dishonor, did mount capital grasers instead of cruiser mixed graser/laser. And Manticore had started creating mixed squadrons by FiD and later, so a very very tiny delay in First Hancock could have put capital graser armed battlecruisers in BatCruRon5's order of battle.

Weird Harold wrote:

Relax wrote:No one wants to admit they are 2nd class and deserve 2nd class equipment. Or in this case, 3rd class.

I think you're being insulting to 3rd-class equipment.

Those who think the captured SLN SDs have any military value to anyone are under-estimating just how obsolete they are. It is much like advocating that HMS Victory and USS Constitution be given to Ethiopia as the core of their navy.

Most of the arguments for gifting the captured ships are good arguments for giving away the smaller ships, but the SDs should be reserved for any emerging nation Manticore wants to drive into bankruptcy.

Yes, you are 100% right, giving wooden sailing ships from 150+ years ago to anyone doesn't make since since those ships would be obsolete compared to everything anyone else can and will field... including Somali pirates. But you are missing the point because these ships are both powerful weapons platforms and obsolete targets, just depends who is controlling them. If it is the SLN they are obsolete targets because the GA has much better equipment, but if it is the GA's allies its a whole different story because they would be facing equal or worse equipment from the League.

What has been suggested time and time again is to give the 80+ captured SD's to newly independent nations that align themselves with the GA because those 80+ SD's while obsolete compared to the GA are more than a match for anything the SLN can send technologically. Throw in some minor modifications and missile pods with each SD and those ships will be more than a match one on one for any SLN SD.

League ships are obsolete because they have to fight the GA, while GA allies would have to fight the League which has the exact same equipment if not worse.

Relax wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
I think you're being insulting to 3rd-class equipment.

Those who think the captured SLN SDs have any military value to anyone are under-estimating just how obsolete they are. It is much like advocating that HMS Victory and USS Constitution be given to Ethiopia as the core of their navy.

Most of the arguments for gifting the captured ships are good arguments for giving away the smaller ships, but the SDs should be reserved for any emerging nation Manticore wants to drive into bankruptcy.

They would only go bankrupt if they bought their systems etc from outside their own nations. Those bolt on systems etc, will boot strap their own manufacturing sectors to produce numerous side benefits as well as defense. And those so called obsolete "death traps" can still take 100++ capital grade missile hits unlike anything else around.

Those yammering about manning requirements of a mere 6000 is absurd. Lets look at a small Honorverse population 600,000,000. Doesn't make much sense for a single SD, but here goes:you need one in 100,000 out of your population to be supported. Now lets say you have a squadron of them along with supporting ships. This balloons into roughly 6000*8*2(support personnel) + same number for small fry = 250,000(round to 300,000) from a population of 600,000,000 = 1:2000! or Look at militaries today. Even po-dunk militaries of small nations. It is roughly 1 in 100 to 1 in 1000 as the ratio!

Zambia: Pop 16M+, Military 19,000 Roughly 1:800 for a po-dunk back water 25% HIV infected populace, economy collapsing, corruption rampant, cesspool of humanity.

More corrupt backwaters:
Ghana: ~28M, Military 15,000, ~1:1800
Uganda: ~40M, Military 55,000, ~1:800
Khazakstan: Pop ~18M, Military 70,000 ~1:250

More prosperous:
Chile: Pop ~18M, Military 100,000 ~1:180
Brazil: Pop ~200M, Military 700,000 ~1:285

USA: Pop ~320M, Military ~1.5M ~1:200

And yet people on this forum, including the author are arguing there is a manning problem in the Honorverse?

And no, don't bring up "education". Average people are... yes that is right, average. Doesn't take long to learn. Military equipment is made for average brutes, not sophisticated ballerinas.

The biggest limitation is $$$/manhour. Why I laugh at those comparing how small the Chinese military is compared to the USA's. Their stuff costs vastly less, maintenance is less, manning requirements are less, because of $$$/manhour, making their military much larger than pure $$$ analysis says it is. Same goes for India.

Let me ask you this, how many times during the last century has one of the major powers be it Russia/USSR, the US, UK, France or China donated or sold at a steep discount modern weapons to a third world military only to see those weapons rendered useless within a few years if not months due to lack of maintenance?

Most core or shell worlds would have the technical expertise one way or another to at least maintain and operate SD's but protectorate and verge systems most likely wont because of several reasons:

1)Their average technical education level would be different from members of the core and shell worlds.

2)Most people in verge and protectorates are not prolong recipients.

3)For capital ships, there is a requirement of more than just warm bodies, there would be a need for infrastructure to maintain and support those warships along with the logistics to keep them supplied.

4) When the average technological skills and lifespan are significantly lower in the verge and protectorates compared to the shell and core means the few people they may have that are qualified would be desperately needed in the civilian sector.

Think about this, you take 2 US carriers, 10 Destroyers and 10 Cruisers and 10 SSN's and send them to the US navy in 1910. The money and manpower might not be a problem, but the technical competency of that manpower might be as would the ability of the nation to maintain those vessels.

Eagleeye wrote:The only real use these old SD's may have - in Manticores space at least - is as objects for target practice. Would save some innocent asteroids from destruction, at least

YEs, but we are not talking about putting them in Manticoran service or against Manticoran ships, we are talking about putting them against technological equals... the SLN.

Relax wrote:

IF China decided to to take Palawan Island, and if 20 Arleigh burke class destroyers were given to the Philippines they could man them in a mere few months. It doesn't take a genius to operate a ship or its sub systems. People aren't stupid. The only stupid people are those who think they are smart and educated.

And what if we replaced the Philippines with say Tanzania or Zimbabwe? You may find the people to put on board, you might teach them to operate the vessel in a very narrow sense but how long before those vessels become inoperable because they are being manned by people who probably have no idea what they are doing.



In the Canadian Forces, to get a electronics technician from the first day of basic to the day he becomes an apprentice is measured in years. The guys dealing with electronics on the ground are taking about 14 months while those dealing with electronics on the aircraft taking over 2 years and that is assuming that all their courses are back to back without delay or failures. And what's more that is only for the lowest level where you might be considered trained. Add another 2-3 years of on the job training and then another 4-8 months of course to be a fully qualified tech you are looking at between 4 and a half years to 6 years to be fully trained.

I imagine a warship in space might require just a little bit more training than giving someone the most rudimentary training and tools and send them on their way.

Relax wrote: The very fact that a star nation is accepting all these hand me down SD's and small fry automatically would mean their mentality is vastly different from a stodgy cast in stone globally dominant military averse to risk.

Start by trying to put yourself in the shoes of a 2nd or 3rd class nation today and their limitations and their resources. Think about being very poor or a serf, slave, and not wanting to go back. Put yourself in the shoes of the immigrant today. They are the hardest working and most prone to risk taking.

The very fact that they are willing to accept those hand me down ships means nothing if they have no one who has ever served on a ship. If your experienced cadre of spacers consists of 500 or a 1000 men and women who have operated at most a shuttle from the surface to orbit and back... you've got nothing. The fact that you might have 1 billion people on the planet many of whom might be willing to serve but don't have the education to do so means very little.

Star Knight wrote:

Relax wrote:Look at militaries today. Even po-dunk militaries of small nations. It is roughly 1 in 100 to 1 in 1000 as the ratio! […] USA: Pop ~320M, Military ~1.5M ~1:200

Yes.
But you forgot about prolong, health care and age limits. Today only a fraction of the population is capable to serve in the military. Everyone older than what – 50ish or something – is generally exempt anyway, and of those many are just not fit/healthy enough to serve.
If you take the US for example, out of the 320M less than half (145ish million, both male and female) are in the desired age range. Even less (120 million) are actually healthy enough to serve (personally I think the number is far lower but whatever).
With about 1.5 mill serving (actually less active personnell atm, but much more with deployable reserves) that’s actually about 1 out of 80.
If you compare this to Manticore…
The Manticoran Binary System is home to 3.6 billion people. All of them enjoy a standard of living higher than in the western world today.
With prolong, the age limits are much, much less of a problem. Apart from the last generation without prolong (which is basically dying from naturally causes during the time of the first war anyway) everyone can serve if he or she wants to.
Virtually everyone, sine the population is much healthier than today. In the Honorverse, practically all diseases are cureable, apart from serious injury or really rare and freaky health issues, there is no reason why any Manticoran wouldn’t be fit enough for military service.
Even pregnancies are a non-issue with prolong and tubing.
So all in all in the Manticoran Binary System there should be more than 2 billion people available for military service. Maybe even 2.5 billion.
If we apply the ratio the US manages comfortably today (which a much less educated/healthy population and not fighting a war for survival) that translates 25 to 31 million.
Or 4.000 to 5000 SLN Superdreadnoughts.

In an actual war? Easily ten times that.

And how many verge and protectorate systems have access to prolong and good healthcare for all of their citizens?

For every person serving on a warship you would require something like 5 people supporting them and that number gets significantly large as the average technological education and knowledge goes down.

Star Knight wrote:And yet, the Peoples Republic got away with poorly educated conscripts manning their wallers. It wasn’t perfect but it worked well enough.

Yeah but their officers would in many cases likely be doing jobs that would be done by enlisted in any other navy. Problem is we are talking about the verge and protectorates where they don't have the trained officers to take up some of the slack.

Relax wrote:
You realize your argument just makes mine stronger?

Might notice, but if you do the math, it makes the "manning" issue an even bigger joke right?

Might notice, but slaves, don't appreciate being slaves. They don't give a damn if their equipment becomes yard art eventually. What they care about is that the equipment in question keeps them from being a slave for as long as it lasts.

And then what? If the ships stop working within 6 months to a year what then? Ask the GA for more?

Jonathan_S wrote:

GabrialSagan wrote:Manticore would not have to charge more than a nominal price, they are offloading captured goods they acquired for the cost of the expended missiles after all. As for the use and interest, Barregos is not the only one who can see the writing on the wall as far as the collapse of the Solarian League is concerned. Star nations that have relied on the SLN as a stabilizing force in the galaxy are going to find themselves suddenly in the midst of a new age of warlordism and are going to want the hardware necessary to defend themselves. Other star nations and militant NGOs are going to want that same hardware to seize opportunities in the new destabilized galaxy to kick off the new age of warlordism.

Sure, if some hypothetical buyer showed up, and you were reasonable sure they weren't going to turn around and immediately commit atrocities with them, by all means offload the otherwise useless SDs.

But a buyer who can scrape up a sufficient crew to fly them away, can maintain them, aquire replacement ammo but still has a real use for obsolete, and very manpower intensive, hardware might be less common than you thinks.

Oh, and one who's not worried about what the SLN might think about their acquisition of ex-SLN war prizes. Because as obsolete as the SLN is, it's more than capable of crushing anybody trying to start up a little navy around captured SLN units. If Manticore is willing to offer system defense to prevent the League from retaliating against you then you don't need the SDs in the first place - but if it's an "as is" transaction then you'd better hope the League doesn't learn about it, doesn't care, or at least has higher priorities than making a quick and painful example of you.

Well there are hundreds of core and shell systems, once they start seceding from the League all that the GA needs is to send them a couple of SD's and any of the 1.8 million SLN personnel who happen to be from that system.

The systems that start seceding from the League get a solid core of personnel and some ships to build their fleets around. And with industrial ability to build the shipyards to build newer and more advanced ships this would encourage stability. If you are a core system that decides to secede from the League and you have little to no military personnel or equipment anything the GA gives you would be better than nothing. And if you are important enough you might actually get a GA picket.