Build a Fleet!

Sigs wrote:Is that because the aircraft is better build, or because it is cheaper and faster to pop out the damaged component and ship it to third line maintenance?

In the case of the F16C vs the F4G, it is mostly a case of higher MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) but the MH/FH ratio difference is the result of a lot of factors -- including the age of the F4s vs F16s less than a year old.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:The jet engines in the Me-262 were replaced in less than 100 hours.

FWIW, you've got one too many zeros in that figure -- the Jumo 004 engines of the ME262 were good for 10-12 flight hours before replacement.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:Is that because the aircraft is better build, or because it is cheaper and faster to pop out the damaged component and ship it to third line maintenance?

In the case of the F16C vs the F4G, it is mostly a case of higher MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) but the MH/FH ratio difference is the result of a lot of factors -- including the age of the F4s vs F16s less than a year old.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:The jet engines in the Me-262 were replaced in less than 100 hours.

FWIW, you've got one too many zeros in that figure -- the Jumo 004 engines of the ME262 were good for 10-12 flight hours before replacement.

Sorry, I lost an attribution when I quoted. The end quote is there but let me go back a while.

The jet engines part was Theemile. Sorry for any confusion.

I don't know much about hardware, least of all for the Air Force. I was first an 11c, then 98g, then 96b in the army. That is: indirect fire infantryman, EW/Sigint Voice Collector, and All-Source Intell analyst. My active duty time was spent in the original, non-automated AN/TRQ-32, AN/TLQ-15, and AN/GLQ-3b. I dropped out of the Army in 1988 (to get my BA), out of the Guard in 1991 (after stoploss for GW1 ended) and re-enlisted in NY in 2000. Retired in 2009.

If anyone remembers that antique crap. Static still wakes me up.
Edited to remove typos. I hate trackpads.
Rob

Sigs wrote:For the first part, there are less farmers than say 200 years ago, but we need far more pilots, mechanics, Air traffic control etc... see where I'm getting at? Technology created a situation where we need fewer farmers, but on the other hand it created entire industries and thousands if not hundreds of thousands of careers.

This was at the top of page 9. So let me get back on track.


We need fewer farmers than we did 200 years ago, but we need more pilots and ATCs and Mechanics etc than we did 200 years ago…

What is my point? That some jobs become redundant or obsolete but there is no finite number of jobs, just because we need less farmers and train engineers than we needed lets 100 or 150 years ago doesn't me that no new jobs have been created… Why am I saying this? Because it seems to me that Relax was arguing that as technology progresses we have fewer jobs. The way I read his argument was that in the fictitious Harrington universe only 25% of the population is gainfully employed and the other 75% are unemployed awaiting the next war to fight.


Source:

Relax wrote:Honorverse has Fusion tech and has had it for a VERY long time. Thus, infrastructure costs and manhour costs are minute at best. Vastly lower than they are today. This frees up an enormous number of people to do OTHER jobs. Millions of people in the USA for instance out of a population of 350Million are employed in the resource extraction, energy, infrastructure business. If 75% of them are now out of work, guess what? They are going to jump at anything else.

#6 reply on pg.8



My argument is that there are no large groups of Manticorean citizens who are doing nothing able to join the military without disrupting the economy. And with a large chunk of the SEM financial power in the hands of those in the old SKM having 270,000,000 people or more on the payroll of the government would be crippling unless the military units from Talbott and Silesia are paid a fraction of the Manticore salaries and that still leaves equipment and ammunition to think of amongst other things. The Quadrant Guard is the consolidation of all SDF's of Talbott in to one organization which has ultimately very little combat power for its tonnage, and the bulk of the troops being raised are Ground Troops. A lot easier to raise an infantry division than it is to raise a wing of fighters and bombers… and in the scenario we are talking about, it is a lot easier to raise an infantry division than a crew for a light or heavy cruiser and build the cruiser.

Sigs wrote:

Sigs wrote:For the first part, there are less farmers than say 200 years ago, but we need far more pilots, mechanics, Air traffic control etc... see where I'm getting at? Technology created a situation where we need fewer farmers, but on the other hand it created entire industries and thousands if not hundreds of thousands of careers.

This was at the top of page 9. So let me get back on track.


We need fewer farmers than we did 200 years ago, but we need more pilots and ATCs and Mechanics etc than we did 200 years ago…

That is because you are ignoring my point.

Basic infrastructure for human comfort, food, clothing, housing, transportation, communications, require fewer workers as a percentage of the population serviced as technology advances.

Likewise you ignore my point that a machine today, requires less maintenance than a machine of yesterday and that a machine tomorrow will likewise require less maintenance than today because MATERIAL science advances.

So, if you admit that the two above points are valid, then one must confront the issue that a higher percentage of the population is essentially NOT NEEDED for sustaining infrastructure and increase its size and therefore available for other pursuits. Not that they are unemployed(previously this was a poor choice of words), but not needed for comfortable living.

Many will decide that eternal school is a great way to go as they know that if they graduate there are very few jobs that actually allow them to use their accumulated skills. Look at today and the percentage of young people getting utterly useless degrees(hostess degrees ) that a few years ago needed no degree at all, just common sense. It used to be true that those who went to college were going to college for the STEM fields. Science, Technology, Engineering, and Medical. Not true anymore. Sure lots still go, but as a percentage of those with degrees, their percentage is dropping drastically.

Now add in a galactic war. PR machines everywhere are going to town. Will people who see their life threatened join up? Yes. Yes, they will sign up in droves. This has been true throughout history. Waving the bloody flag always works. And their population has a greater percentage of people available even before one considers prolong. Once one considers prolong, the number available for military service quadruples. So, if today if 0.5%-2% is comfortable for 60 years as the leading economy of the world without prolong, somehow I cannot possibly see Manticore/Haven etc being unable to field 2-4% of their population if they so desired.

Remember today, 55% of population is available in the working age. 24-64. Now subtract the "old" due to prolong, and that adds at minimum 13%. Now we also know that they have fewer children, so the current, 1/3 of population or greater of children will likewise shrink. If half, that adds another 17%. So, total available population fit for military service went from 55% to 85%. 85/55 is 1.5 times the available workforce and likewise the available manpower for WAR. I was using the 24-64 bracket as I and you, and RFC have stated that even the "grunts" in the Honorverse have at least a 4 year degree. If you wish to include the 18-24 bracket from which traditionally military manpower is pulled, go for it, but in the Honorverse this age bracket I do not see as being valid as it is today because of PROLONG.

Remember, you were claiming less than 0.5%. I have already shown you that historically that number is not true until post cold war. Personally, I see the situation post GA/Malign war as pretty much equivalent to the Cold War. Giant unknowns.

PPS> IF anyone thinks that in the time frame of 1950-60, that Germany, Italy, France, Japan were our "allies", you have been smoking something you shouldn't have been.

Lets look at another effect of prolong. Lets look at the Medical industry today compared to Honorverse. Not only are there FAR fewer old age people, but there are also far fewer young age people. Today, this accounts by far the vast majority of doctors visits.

Now add advanced medical care in 2000 years were there is no such thing as the common cold, etc etc etc.

Currently today there is roughly 4+ visits to a doctor per person in the USA per year. This from a population that is 13% elderly and 23% are under 18. So, roughly 36% of our current population account for the large majority of medical office visits. 53% of office visits were aged 45 and older. Sorry, can't get post retired age for some reason. Kids, by and large after the age of 4 are fairly healthy. Conversely there is a significant part of the population that accounts for the majority of the health care visits.

This means far fewer personnel needed.
This means a far healthier work force.
This means far higher number of women available
This means far fewer people in the long term care industry

Currently there are roughly 12M personnel in the medical industry for a population of 330Million. That is 3.5% of the POPULATION in the Health industry. Now add prolong where the children population is at minimum half what it used to be and the retired age adult population is.... highly dependent on which world and when they received prolong. Silesia has had it for a long time, TQ obviously has not, so lets split the difference and say half of 13% of the population is old. ~7%.

Prolong alone, irregardless of better health care standards, will free up roughly 1-2% of the population in fewer personnel required in the medical industry. That number BY itself is more than enough to "man" the entire fleet necessary under this scenario. That is before one even gets into the fact that there are MORE personnel available as a percentage of the population to begin with!

So, before I argued for vastly decreasing infrastructure % required for sustained comfortable life, and now I am adding Health care on top of this.

In short there will be an additional 10-20% of the total population available to either man the military or provide for the military over CURRENT population norms.

So, NO, manning a giant navy is not impossible. In fact it is downright easy in the Honorverse compared to today even if everyone has to have a 4 year degree to pick their nose while twiddling their fingers waiting for holes to be punched in their ships just so they can "use" their 4 year degree on damage control and maintenance...

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

SWM wrote:Pardon me, I did not state it clearly enough. The context was the Eridani Edict, which only concerns itself with WMDs. You are correct. I did mean that a factory is not a valid target for a WMD when you have control of near space (unless it is a legitimate military target for other reasons).

For a factory or other non-military target, you are expected to actually drop troops if you want to control it.

SWM, a candy factory or an underwire bra factory does not have military significance, anything making war materiel is in fact a military target. Even a textile mill produces material that could be used for uniforms, tentage, and war materiel.

But chemical plants and cement factories and manufacturing of many sorts use chemicals that are flammable and have hazardous health effects when spewed into the atmosphere. Mostly, it is preferable to take them intact if you can.

That didn't stop the bombing in WWII. Modern chemical plants use very very hazardous chemicals, though. So unless you have specific intel that makes a particular plant a priority target, it is (and ought to be) included in the no-fire zones for artillery and/or aircraft targeting.

Cement factories were quite common in Iraq--it is one of the primary building materials. But any chemical plant can be re-purposed to make poison gas, or munitions, or IEDs. But spewing those chemicals into the atmosphere--even or especially the volatile ones--isn't something you want to do. Especially in a factory zone near a residential district in a country where you have a small number of troops, a large patrol area, several different groups of insurgents, and a local population the size of New York State. Like, for instance, on the north side of Baghdad.

Or Mosul. Or Baqubah, Kirkuk, Ramadi, or dozens of other places. We used joint patrols of US and IA for investigatng places like that, whenever we could.

After all, Iraq had already surrendered. And, of course, not many of our people spoke Iraqi Arabic, Kurdish, or Turkish (in the north), so we needed to have interpreters.

Rob

Better check what David said. Read http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/31/1, and in particular this section (with bolding for emphasis):

The Eridani Edict does not prohibit the use of "weapons of mass destruction" against inhabited planets. What it does do is to establish the parameters under which those weapons may be used.

First, they may only be used by an attacker who controls near-planet space. That is, a raiding squadron which dashes in, passes within weapons range of the planet, and then lopes off again before a relief force can turn up and kick its butt, cannot pop off a few missiles at the planet as it passes without violating the Edict. Before it can fire at targets on the planetary surface, it must have established that the planet has no immediate prospect of relief, and that they (the attackers) are in a position to send down assault forces if they choose to do so. At that point, the attackers are entitled to summon the planet to surrender upon pain of bombardment from space. If the defenders choose not to surrender, then the attackers are justified in using bombardment to take out specific military targets rather than sending their assault forces down to be slaughtered trying to take them with infantry or armored units in an effort to prevent civilian casualties.

The military targets which are legitimate candidates for bombardment are also clearly understood to fall into specifically limited categories. They may be command-and-control nodes, such as planetary military and/or political command structures and facilities. They may be tactical weapons positions or troop concentrations. They may be civilian communications facilities which have military applications. However, all of them must have immediate, tactical applications and capabilities.

What this means is that a planetary defense missile battery, wherever located, is a legitimate target. The defenders can't stick the missiles in the middle of Central Park in New York City in order to protect them against attack under the terms of the Eridani Edict. If there are weapons there, then they are legitimate targets for attack. By the same token, if two armored divisions dig in to defend New York City and their commander refuses to surrender, then they become a legitimate target. The White House in Washington, DC, would be a legitimate target, as would the Pentagon, because of their command-and-control functions. A civilian powerplant being used to provide electricity to weapons systems, or sensors, or electronic warfare platforms, would also be a legitimate target. However, a factory which produced missiles but had no capacity to fire them, would not be a legitimate target because it poses no immediate tactical threat to the fleet in orbit around the planet or to the assault troops which it might land to take possession of the factory. Similarly, an orbital bombardment attack on the basic economic or industrial infrastructure of the planet would not be justifiable under the terms of the Edict, nor would a "demonstration strike" on a population center intended to terrify the rest of the planetary population into submission.

Remember, this is talking about a situation in which you already control near space and have the ability to land troops. David is saying that, in such a situation, the attacker should demand surrender. If the planet does not surrender, the attacker has two options: he can strike purely military targets from orbit, including command and control centers, or they can drop troops onto the planet. They can not target mere factories from orbit, even if they are constructing weapons; if he wants to take out a factory, he has to land troops.

Hitting a factory from orbit is absurdly easy with a Graser or PDLC who can hit a moving missile at 0.2-0.8c at ranges of 200,000+ km when near "orbitals" could be as low as 500km...

Doesn't meet the sniff test.

That being said, under DW's defintion it partially makes sense. I sure as heck would not adhere to the Edict if I was a military planner. Take it out as acquiring a target in near ~stationary orbitals is absurdly easy with today's tech, let alone Honorverse Tech.

SWM wrote:They can not target mere factories from orbit, even if they are constructing weapons; if he wants to take out a factory, he has to land troops.

No, you can't use a weapon of mass destruction on it that would be expected to have significant impact beyond the target. You can blow up targets of military significance as long as large-scale casualties of civilians outside the target are not expected. See David's explanation of how blowing up three populated orbital platforms, killing millions of people and destroying a city on the planet is not an edict violation.

Relax wrote:Lets look at another effect of prolong. Lets look at the Medical industry today compared to Honorverse. Not only are there FAR fewer old age people, but there are also far fewer young age people. Today, this accounts by far the vast majority of doctors visits.

Now add advanced medical care in 2000 years were there is no such thing as the common cold, etc etc etc.

Currently today there is roughly 4+ visits to a doctor per person in the USA per year. This from a population that is 13% elderly and 23% are under 18. So, roughly 36% of our current population account for the large majority of medical office visits. 53% of office visits were aged 45 and older. Sorry, can't get post retired age for some reason. Kids, by and large after the age of 4 are fairly healthy. Conversely there is a significant part of the population that accounts for the majority of the health care visits.

This means far fewer personnel needed.
This means a far healthier work force.
This means far higher number of women available
This means far fewer people in the long term care industry

Currently there are roughly 12M personnel in the medical industry for a population of 330Million. That is 3.5% of the POPULATION in the Health industry. Now add prolong where the children population is at minimum half what it used to be and the retired age adult population is.... highly dependent on which world and when they received prolong. Silesia has had it for a long time, TQ obviously has not, so lets split the difference and say half of 13% of the population is old. ~7%.

Prolong alone, irregardless of better health care standards, will free up roughly 1-2% of the population in fewer personnel required in the medical industry. That number BY itself is more than enough to "man" the entire fleet necessary under this scenario. That is before one even gets into the fact that there are MORE personnel available as a percentage of the population to begin with!

Somewhat offsetting this there should be medical jobs that have no counterpart today. Regen specialists, people administrating and monitoring the various prolong doses, biomechanical specialists designing or manifacturing the wide range of new medical impants (artificial eyes, nerves, and fully armed and operational prosthetic arms; anyone? )

Then there are doctors specializing in genetic analysis and correction (with associated medical nanotech) that are also far beyond anything we have today.


All told that may well not (and likely won't) produce as many jobs as are freed by largely dismantling retirement homes and reducing pediatric loads; but it's still something.

Back to the beginning.

Erls wrote:Assume the builder of this fleet is a sector of 15-25 wealthy Core/Shell planets that have gone their own way after the collapse of the League and they have access to tech equal to the GAs..

House of Steel,
Building a Navy in the Honorverse,
by David Weber and Christopher Weuve wrote:Introduction
Building a navy is a complicated endeavor, whether one is bending steel or turning phrases. Doing it right depends on understanding a set of key parameters that will define the structure of the navy. These parameters can be broken into six major areas:

1. Strategic Assumptions
2. Strategic Goals
3. Fleet Missions
4. Fleet Design
5. Force Size
6. Force Management

1. Strategic Assumptions:

The 20 Systems of my nascent Star Nation/Confederation/Trade Association have extensive System Defense forces but very little hyper-capable combat units.

We do NOT participate in the local MDF force, but expect to be invited to do so once we have some force projection capability.

The Renaissance Factor is growing like a cancer feeding on the remnants of the Solarian League, but they are a distant threat for 20-30 years in the future.

2. Strategic Goals

A) Continue to provide for individual System Defense with existing Spider-LACs and MLMS (Multiple Launch Missile Systems -- a moon/asteroid based system defense system that can fire, and control, 1 to 1,000 missiles from each Huacha "superpod." Spider-LACs have the active sensor return of a grain of sand, but are armed with SD-grade grasers and cruiser-grade DDMs similar to the RMN's aging Mk-16G design.

b) Provide hyper capable units for mutual defense of member systems. At least two BB/BCL class ships available for rapid response and two for local defense in each system. At least 12 DDL/CL class ships in each system for scouting, screening and commerce protection between member systems as necessary.

add the TOE of one system if an invite to join the MDF is accepted.

3. Fleet Missions

Self Defense, Commerce Protection, Coordinate and Cooperate with MDF Sector command.

4. Fleet Design

Home System Defense Forces:
..Huacha Super-pod system defense missiles; a variant of RMN Apollo/Mycroft systems with FTL control and using multi-drive and multi-stage technology.

..Spider-LACs super-stealthy and near frigate-sized, armed with DDMs and big grasers provide mobile defenses and customs/border patrol capability.

Internal Defense Forces: (Per member system)

.. Two BB/BCL class Heavy Battle cruisers -- similar to RMN Nike Class ca 1922. Armed with Capital grade MDMs equivalent to RMN Mk23 with individual FTL receivers. (tactical sensor data obtained by full FTL fast drone ahead of missile storm.)

Inter-system Quick Response and Mutual Defense:

.. Two BB(p)/BCL(p) -- an up-sized RMN Agamemnon class armed with Apollo-style full FTL-duplex ACM+MDM pods. Primary Quick Reaction Assets for support of other member systems.

Miscellaneous Support

.. Twelve DDL/CL class (Improved RMN Roland class) for scouting, screening, and commerce protection.

Six Dispatch Boats for inter-system communications and command/control between units.


5. Force Size

20 * 22 ships/system + specialized ships like tugs, ammo ships, repair ships, etc (+ and additional 22 ships for the MDF Nodal Force if joined)


Note No DN or SD class ships are deemed necessary because of the lethality of BCL/BCL(P)/Apollo combinations.

No CLACs are proposed because Spider-LACs of the existing SDFs are not suitable for mobile deployment. Conventional LACs are not deemed survivable in modern combat.


*****

This is a first iteration of the OP's idea; A starting point for discussion. It is essentially what I would build for a single system that had a mutual defense back-up and/or participated in a Mutual Defense Force such as NATO or the first war Manticore Alliance.