Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"

JohnRoth wrote:A really functional tail, though, would require all the sensory-motor wiring through the spinal column (where will it find the space?) into the appropriate parts of the brain and the "homunculus." Integrating it properly wouldn't be a trivial task.

Probably not easy, no.

But very satisfying to wag in the Beowulfian establishment's collective face.

JohnRoth wrote:The HOX genes for a tail still exist.

Then the genes for the rest of the tail's components should as well, even if damaged or inactive.

Brigade XO wrote:The problem- there is always a problem and unintended consequences- is that the "fix" ended up being the cause of lethal mutation(s) in a signifcant % of male fetus

No IIRC it's made clear in the text that the damaged X-chromosome was generated/inserted by the same vector but not directly related to the intended modification.

Also naively thought it should largely eliminate itself due to its lower reproduction probability but... story.

Crown Loyalist wrote:I wonder how much time it took for Mesa to go completely off the rails. It may have been Detweiler himself, who could have been truly inspired by the benefit of humankind, but that nonetheless led him down the road towards plotting to overthrow the Solarian League. I can't recall how much the books go into that background.

JohnRoth wrote:What makes you think they went off the rails?

Torch of Freedom, prolog to Part III wrote:Since all that was true, Detweiler further argued, it only made sense to genetically modify colonists for the environments which were going to cause their descendants to mutate anyway. And it was only a small step further to argue that if it made sense to genetically modify human beings for environments in which they would have to live, it also made sense to genetically modify them to better suit them to the environments in which they would have to work.

That's genetic slavery in a nutshell. Maybe not the way it worked out, but it's the basic concept behind the MAlign's "specialty lines." We've seen at least three and possibly four of them. They aren't genetic slaves, but they aren't Mesan Alphas, either.

SWM wrote:You keep repeating that, but modifying people to suit the environments in which they work does not automatically mean genetic slavery. Nor does it automatically mean a caste system. It depends on who makes the decisions on who gets modified and how.

Please notice the final word in the quote; the italics were in the original. Also notice the direction of the argument - Leonard Detweiller is going beyond simply modifying people for their environment. That's the critical step that leads to genetic slavery and the "specialty lines," such as Albrecht Detweiller's bodyguard. Note that the bodyguard is not a genetic slave. Also, the bodyguard's clone sister reproves Aldona Asiminova at one point for trying to hurry beyond her (the bodyguard's) ability to check for weapons, etc.

JohnRoth wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:That's genetic slavery in a nutshell. Maybe not the way it worked out, but it's the basic concept behind the MAlign's "specialty lines." We've seen at least three and possibly four of them. They aren't genetic slaves, but they aren't Mesan Alphas, either.

SWM wrote:You keep repeating that, but modifying people to suit the environments in which they work does not automatically mean genetic slavery. Nor does it automatically mean a caste system. It depends on who makes the decisions on who gets modified and how.

Please notice the final word in the quote; the italics were in the original. Also notice the direction of the argument - Leonard Detweiller is going beyond simply modifying people for their environment. That's the critical step that leads to genetic slavery and the "specialty lines," such as Albrecht Detweiller's bodyguard. Note that the bodyguard is not a genetic slave. Also, the bodyguard's clone sister reproves Aldona Asiminova at one point for trying to hurry beyond her (the bodyguard's) ability to check for weapons, etc.

Sure, it is a step that would have to happen before genetic slavery and specialty lines could appear. But that step does not automatically mean that genetic slavery or even specialty lines will follow. You said, "That's genetic slavery in a nutshell", and it simply isn't true.

aairfccha wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:A really functional tail, though, would require all the sensory-motor wiring through the spinal column (where will it find the space?) into the appropriate parts of the brain and the "homunculus." Integrating it properly wouldn't be a trivial task.

Probably not easy, no.

But very satisfying to wag in the Beowulfian establishment's collective face.

JohnRoth wrote:The HOX genes for a tail still exist.

Then the genes for the rest of the tail's components should as well, even if damaged or inactive.

The human lineage has lacked tails since at least the time orangutangs split from the main line leading to gorillas, chimps and humans. This was approximately 18 my ago (+/- a couple of million years). The major expansion leading to the modern human brain began, at most, 2.5 million years ago, so any residual programming most likely wouldn't integrate well.

JohnRoth wrote:That's genetic slavery in a nutshell. Maybe not the way it worked out, but it's the basic concept behind the MAlign's "specialty lines." We've seen at least three and possibly four of them. They aren't genetic slaves, but they aren't Mesan Alphas, either.

SWM wrote:You keep repeating that, but modifying people to suit the environments in which they work does not automatically mean genetic slavery. Nor does it automatically mean a caste system. It depends on who makes the decisions on who gets modified and how.

JohnRoth wrote:Please notice the final word in the quote; the italics were in the original. Also notice the direction of the argument - Leonard Detweiller is going beyond simply modifying people for their environment. That's the critical step that leads to genetic slavery and the "specialty lines," such as Albrecht Detweiller's bodyguard. Note that the bodyguard is not a genetic slave. Also, the bodyguard's clone sister reproves Aldona Asiminova at one point for trying to hurry beyond her (the bodyguard's) ability to check for weapons, etc.

SWM wrote:Sure, it is a step that would have to happen before genetic slavery and specialty lines could appear. But that step does not automatically mean that genetic slavery or even specialty lines will follow. You said, "That's genetic slavery in a nutshell", and it simply isn't true.

You're probably right about genetic slavery, but I don't think you're right about the specialty lines.

I'm going to continue this in a new thread, since I think the entire "specialty line" thing needs to be aired a bit more.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:I gather that the Beowulf Code stands for necessity through moderation.

The Detweiler vision is 'because we can, we will.'

I don't think the Detweiler Consortium cares one way or the other about side effects.

JMHO

Bioengineered nanites for weaponry is way over the top.

This should not be allowed to age off.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I gather that the Beowulf Code stands for necessity through moderation.

The Detweiler vision is 'because we can, we will.'

I don't think the Detweiler Consortium cares one way or the other about side effects.

JMHO

Bioengineered nanites for weaponry is way over the top.

This should not be allowed to age off.[/quote]


Actually, we've seen them culling the herd. The Bardasano line was in danger, for example.

They used Manpower to experiment. And there has been nothing that over the top. Even Harahap was human, nothing weird.

The strangest elements seem to be in looks: Sying-ni and her catlike appearance.

It is a matter of degree. And, yes, it is in some ways sociopathic. But as in Meyerdahl B a lot of what we today would say is over the top would not be condemned then.

ldwechsler wrote:

Actually, we've seen them culling the herd. The Bardasano line was in danger, for example.

They used Manpower to experiment. And there has been nothing that over the top. Even Harahap was human, nothing weird.

The strangest elements seem to be in looks: Sying-ni and her catlike appearance.

It is a matter of degree. And, yes, it is in some ways sociopathic. But as in Meyerdahl B a lot of what we today would say is over the top would not be condemned then.

Did you mean Hararap? He's not a product of Manpower experimentation, as so far revealed in the books. He's from a Verge Protectorate.

I'd agree that the idea of genetic manipulation is not, in itself, necessarily sociopathic. However, the MAlign seem to be National Socialist in the sense that they see individuals as worthless except insofar as they serve the purposes of the Mesan Alignment.

Which might be the real difference between the two. For Beowulf, the genetic manipulation must serve the individual. For Detweiler, the purpose of the individual is to serve the genetics.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:I gather that the Beowulf Code stands for necessity through moderation.

The Detweiler vision is 'because we can, we will.'

I don't think the Detweiler Consortium cares one way or the other about side effects.

JMHO

Bioengineered nanites for weaponry is way over the top.

tlb wrote:This should not be allowed to age off.

ldwechsler wrote:

Actually, we've seen them culling the herd. The Bardasano line was in danger, for example.

They used Manpower to experiment. And there has been nothing that over the top. Even Harahap was human, nothing weird.

The strangest elements seem to be in looks: Sying-ni and her catlike appearance.

It is a matter of degree. And, yes, it is in some ways sociopathic. But as in Meyerdahl B a lot of what we today would say is over the top would not be condemned then.

Looks are very easy to deal with in a story. Kevin Usher's wife is supposed to be a genetic slave - a sex slave to be precise. How can we tell without being told? There's a bit of innuendo, but that could fit a lot of scenarios.

On the other claw:

"Sr Grade Lt Jenny Blake took the indicated seat, her prehensile tail, which she'd inherited from a Manpower genetic slave ancestor who had been special ordered by someone with weird tastes, carefully wrapped around her waist."

You can't miss that tail, and you don't even need the center-embedded clause to explain where it came from.