Spoilers - Toll of Honor

tlb wrote:On the other hand, Honor has in fact met someone with unarmed guards by her side for the purposes of diplomacy (the minimum number is 2)

Oops, thanks for that. I rechecked AoV Ch.6 and realized that I'd misread it.

The actual text was

Ashes of Victory wrote:More than that, she'd already reduced her normal three-man detail to the minimum Grayson law would permit

. I somehow misread that as reduced to three, not reduced from three.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:On the other hand, Honor has in fact met someone with unarmed guards by her side for the purposes of diplomacy (the minimum number is 2)

Oops, thanks for that. I rechecked AoV Ch.6 and realized that I'd misread it.

The actual text was

Ashes of Victory wrote:More than that, she'd already reduced her normal three-man detail to the minimum Grayson law would permit

. I somehow misread that as reduced to three, not reduced from three.

Thanks for the reminder that Honor enjoys diplomatic immunity Jonathan. I totally forgot about that. And thanks for the text tlb. I can see how it could become tricky, say, if she were somehow in trouble with the Crown. I am not sure her diplomatic immunity would help her then. Because Clinkscales admitted to Honor having been accepted as swearing fealty to her birth nation first. Thus her duties to her birth nation might preempt her oath or duties to Grayson. Dunno how diplomatic immunity would factor into those realities. For instance, Honor's diplomatic immunity shouldn't be able to shield her from a court martial and a firing squad.

And she shouldn't be legally allowed to duel since she became an official Steadholder.

penny wrote:And she shouldn't be legally allowed to duel since she became an official Steadholder.

How do you justify that statement? Considering she has been in duels on both Manticore and Grayson, since becoming a Steadholder. No one in the books ever said she could not legally do that. From Field of Dishonor:

Chapter 23 wrote:"I'm afraid there's another thing you're going to have to accept, though, Major LaFollet. Not from me or the Navy, but from Dame Honor herself." LaFollet raised an eyebrow, and Ramirez sighed. "You know, of course, about Captain Tankersley's death?" The armsman nodded, and Ramirez shrugged, not entirely happily. "The Captain knows who did it. I expect she'll be doing something about that, and you won't be able to protect her when she does."

"We realize that, Sir. We don't like it, but frankly, Colonel, we wouldn't try to stop her if we could."

PS: On Manticore I imagine if Honor were in trouble for something that she did in her capacity as a RMN officer, then she could be court martialed. But if she were in trouble with the Crown otherwise, then they would have to declare her persona non grata.

tlb wrote:PS: On Manticore I imagine if Honor were in trouble for something that she did in her capacity as a RMN officer, then she could be court martialed. But if she were in trouble with the Crown otherwise, then they would have to declare her persona non grata.

I suppose there might be other, non RMN, things she does which were unquestionably under her citizen of the SKM persona; and so for which her diplomatic immunity presumably wouldn't apply to.

For example if she did something illegal in the administration of Harrington House or associated with her Dutchy -- those clearly don't fall under her Steadholder persona. Another possible example would be fraud on her Manticoran taxes; or some wrongdoing with her voting in Manticoran elections.


But even when diplomatic immunity didn't apply to the crime it'd still complicate the punishment. Pretty sure it'd be no bar to stripping her of purely Manticoran positions (like tossing her out of the RMN), and probably wouldn't affect routine levels of fines. But I suspect it'd preclude locking her up and definitely preclude execution (at least without going through Grayson justice as well); so for some stuff she'd just have to be PNG'd instead.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:And she shouldn't be legally allowed to duel since she became an official Steadholder.

How do you justify that statement? Considering she has been in duels on both Manticore and Grayson, since becoming a Steadholder. No one in the books ever said she could not legally do that. From Field of Dishonor:

Chapter 23 wrote:I'm afraid there's another thing you're going to have to accept, though, Major LaFollet. Not from me or the Navy, but from Dame Honor herself." LaFollet raised an eyebrow, and Ramirez sighed. "You know, of course, about Captain Tankersley's death?" The armsman nodded, and Ramirez shrugged, not entirely happily. "The Captain knows who did it. I expect she'll be doing something about that, and you won't be able to protect her when she does."

"We realize that, Sir. We don't like it, but frankly, Colonel, we wouldn't try to stop her if we could."

PS: On Manticore I imagine if Honor were in trouble for something that she did in her capacity as a RMN officer, then she could be court martialed. But if she were in trouble with the Crown otherwise, then they would have to declare her persona non grata.

Forgive me. I wasn't saying that that is the way it actually was. Or is. I am saying that as a steadholder she has legal obligations to her steading to remain alive. Especially since she didn't have an heir. She has an heir now, but it still seems that she shouldn't be legally allowed to jeopardize her life or the well-being of her steading for dangerous capacities that are not a part of her duties to the Queen. In a nutshell, that is partly why Hamish tried to stop her from dueling. Because of her duties to the Queen and country. These are essentially the things that Howard Clinksacales told her as why it is essential for her to have armsmen and unlawful for her not to. We know that she can participate in duels. After all, Grayson has sanctioned duels. Although, I am surprised that dueling off Grayson can't be challenged since those duels aren't necessarily supported by Tester. Grayson would have a point if they didn't recognize duels off planet as anything other than a barroom brawl. But no I am not saying I am correct, but that logically from the text I am surprised. I am surprised even that steadholders should be allowed to duel. They are heads of state. I can't see Beth being allowed to duel under any circumstances. It is laughable to think the Emperor would be allowed to.

Toll of Honor wrote:Honor opened her mouth, but his raised hand cut her off politely.

“My Lady, as you just pointed out, you’re a naval officer, and as the Conclave recognized, your duties to your birth kingdom and your Queen predate your responsibilities to Grayson and your Key. I accept that, just as the Conclave did. And that means all of us accept that you may well be called to action yet again, where you’ll be at risk of serious injury or death. But you have no heir, and this is a very new steading. That means it’s . . . fragile, and if there’s anything I or anyone else can do to minimize the chance of something happening to you and destroying that fragility, it’s our responsibility to do it and your responsibility to let us do it.”

He held her eyes steadily, and Honor tasted the steely core of his determination. And, she realized, more than a little unwillingly, he had a point. Just as the captain of a Queen’s ship had no business leading ground attacks on something like Blackbird Base, a steadholder—any head of state—had no choice but to accept the protection of her own security service, at least when she was dirtside in her steadholder’s role. Aboard ship or on active naval service, it might be different, but she wasn’t aboard ship or on active service at the moment, was she?

penny wrote:Forgive me. I wasn't saying that that is the way it actually was. Or is. I am saying that as a steadholder she has legal obligations to her steading to remain alive. Especially since she didn't have an heir. She has an heir now, but it still seems that she shouldn't be legally allowed to jeopardize her life or the well-being of her steading for dangerous capacities that are not a part of her duties to the Queen. In a nutshell, that is partly why Hamish tried to stop her from dueling. Because of her duties to the Queen and country. These are essentially the things that Howard Clinksacales told her as why it is essential for her to have armsmen and unlawful for her not to. We know that she can participate in duels. After all, Grayson has sanctioned duels. Although, I am surprised that dueling off Grayson can't be challenged since those duels aren't necessarily supported by Tester. Grayson would have a point if they didn't recognize duels off planet as anything other than a barroom brawl. But no I am not saying I am correct, but that logically from the text I am surprised. I am surprised even that steadholders should be allowed to duel. They are heads of state. I can't see Beth being allowed to duel under any circumstances. It is laughable to think the Emperor would be allowed to.

But if we follow your reasoning, that her life as a Steadholder is too valuable to risk; then she should have resigned her commission as an officer in the Navy when she was given a title. She has come much closer to dying (even with being shot in the back) in her ship to ship duels, then she ever did on the dueling ground (consider the fight between Fearless and Thunder of God, if the enemy had been handled better).

What you should have said was that you thought that she had a MORAL duty to avoid a duel. But she has competing moral duties and she would have failed her highest moral duty, if she had allowed the man to flourish who paid to have her love murdered.

You have shown previously that you simply do not understand why people would ever duel, a very modern attitude. When the signers of the Declaration of Independence made the last line be “We Mutually Pledge To Each Other Our Lives, Our Fortunes, And Our Sacred Honor…”; they were not just being theatrical, it was a time when a gentleman's honor must be kept sacred, lest they not be a gentleman at all. Because of this dueling was the province of the upper class, the aristocracy. A nobleman would duel, a guttersnipe would just brawl in the street or the tavern.

Why would you expect a Grayson to believe that the Tester only watches over what happens on Grayson? I would be surprised if there have not been duels between Steadholders, even if we have not seen mention of any.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Forgive me. I wasn't saying that that is the way it actually was. Or is. I am saying that as a steadholder she has legal obligations to her steading to remain alive. Especially since she didn't have an heir. She has an heir now, but it still seems that she shouldn't be legally allowed to jeopardize her life or the well-being of her steading for dangerous capacities that are not a part of her duties to the Queen. In a nutshell, that is partly why Hamish tried to stop her from dueling. Because of her duties to the Queen and country. These are essentially the things that Howard Clinksacales told her as why it is essential for her to have armsmen and unlawful for her not to. We know that she can participate in duels. After all, Grayson has sanctioned duels. Although, I am surprised that dueling off Grayson can't be challenged since those duels aren't necessarily supported by Tester. Grayson would have a point if they didn't recognize duels off planet as anything other than a barroom brawl. But no I am not saying I am correct, but that logically from the text I am surprised. I am surprised even that steadholders should be allowed to duel. They are heads of state. I can't see Beth being allowed to duel under any circumstances. It is laughable to think the Emperor would be allowed to.

But if we follow your reasoning, that her life as a Steadholder is too valuable to risk; then she should have resigned her commission as an officer in the Navy when she was given a title. She has come much closer to dying (even with being shot in the back) in her ship to ship duels, then she ever did on the dueling ground (consider the fight between Fearless and Thunder of God, if the enemy had been handled better).

What you should have said was that you thought that she had a MORAL duty to avoid a duel. But she has competing moral duties and she would have failed her highest moral duty, if she had allowed the man to flourish who paid to have her love murdered.

You have shown previously that you simply do not understand why people would ever duel, a very modern attitude. When the signers of the Declaration of Independence made the last line be “We Mutually Pledge To Each Other Our Lives, Our Fortunes, And Our Sacred Honor…”; they were not just being theatrical, it was a time when a gentleman's honor must be kept sacred, lest they not be a gentleman at all. Because of this dueling was the province of the upper class, the aristocracy. A nobleman would duel, a guttersnipe would just brawl in the street or the tavern.

Why would you expect a Grayson to believe that the Tester only watches over what happens on Grayson? I would be surprised if there have not been duels between Steadholders, even if we have not seen mention of any.

No, she shouldn't have. Read my post again.

I noted that Howard Clinkscales admitted that the Conclave of Steadholders accepted Honor's previous oath to her birth country which supercedes her obligations to her steading. However, dueling is not official naval business.

And again, I am only admitting my own feelings in this instance, and nothing more.

And yes, I have previously stated my distaste for dueling. But since then, a friend has softened by view of it. He said to me. "If some asshole had murdered your mother you'd want justice. Dueling allows you to legally exact that justice. In the manner that you would see fit. Instead of locking him up and feeding him for the rest of his life. You wouldn't think that is justice."

Ok, I am softened.

.

What I really need help with is something that I find very interesting yet difficult for me to grasp and understand. As a steadholder, Honor has so much power over her steading. She is god. She is not Tester. But she is god. Her steading has to obey her every command that she may give. Although she cannot give a command that breaks any laws of the Constitution. This makes me wonder. Had Honor not stopped the crowd that was moving towards Solomon Marchant to exact justice when he called her a harlot in public, could she have been held responsible for his death if she didn't stop them?

It might remind you of a matter pending in our court system now, but I do not want anyone influenced by those very different circumstances. Nor do I want to inject current politics into this discussion.

What if instead she ordered them to kill him, would they have been subject to charges for committing murder right along with Honor, or would just Honor be charged alone? On Earth even an officer is not shielded from punishment if he follows an order he knows is wrong. So, the excuse of “my superior made me do it” will not protect a soldier from facing charges. But a steadholder has much more power over their subjects. So in that regard, I am unsure about the law.


Her steading only has one city now, but it will have others.

Truth be told I didn't realize that steadings were larger than a single city. Mind boggling.

I can see a time when Harrington Steading will be among the largest Steadings if not the largest steading, because of the opportunity of advancement alone. And the opportunities. Men and women are truly equal in Harrington Steading.

Honor makes local law which might be different from laws in other steadings. In fact, we know from text that Harrington Steading’s laws are different. Honor's laws are much more fair to her citizens than any other.

Harrington Steading's laws are much more progressive and forgiving, especially to women. As one would expect. It sort of reminds me of the difference between the laws of a city here on Earth and the laws on a reservation. Gambling and casinos may be unlawful in most American cities but are lawful on a reservation, even though the city the reservation is in does not allow gambling.

But I digress. It all just seems so odd and so many questions arise. Is someone from another steading allowed to even walk in another steading? I think Steadings are exactly like cities on any other planet in that respect or the protestors would never have entered the city. Are visitors legally bound to follow the laws of the steading they are visiting, or are they bound by the laws of their own steading? I don't think visitors have to get permission to enter another steading? Does their steadholder even allow them to visit another steading? I am sure a steadholder can forbid its citizens to visit another steading. A steadholder might feel that Harrington Steading will corrupt the values of his citizens. But what if they do anyway?

Can they be forcefully extradited from that steading by another steadholder if it ever comes up? Can Honor deny it and declare her steading as a safe haven from various charges for various reasons? Like, say, a particularly brutal steadholder who simply wishes to punish women for reasons that are unacceptable to Honor. IOW, can a citizen run to Harrington Steading and seek asylum?

I am uncertain about the structure of authority of various entities on the planet. It is unclear to mine eyes. Specifically, can someone help me with this line from the passage included below:

“At this moment, since the Steading has only a single city, no municipal police forces have been organized,” he said. “For now, the Harrington Steadholder’s Guard is charged with all police functions.

Does the municipal police force represent the laws of the planet as a whole? The notion of a police force on Earth? I think so, but I am uncertain.

Howard Clinkscales wrote:“Obviously, my work is cut out for me,” he said dryly. His lips twitched at her smothered chuckle, but then he straightened his shoulders.

“At this moment, since the Steading has only a single city, no municipal police forces have been organized,” he said. “For now, the Harrington Steadholder’s Guard is charged with all police functions. In time, as additional municipalities grow and spread, their individual police forces will be responsible for enforcing local law while the Guard falls back to enforcing Steading law.

“As Steadholder Harrington, you command the entire Guard, which can be enlarged to whatever extent the Steading requires. The Mayhew Steadholder’s Guard, for example, has a roster strength of over seven thousand. At the moment, the Harrington Guard is at only about four hundred.”

Honored nodded, her expression serious, and even as she listened, she castigated herself for not having already paid more attention to Clinkscales’ memos on this subject.

“Although you command the entire Guard, there are significant legal constraints on the orders you can give it. Once upon a time, every armsman in a steading’s guard was answerable solely to its steadholder in his own person, but that was before the Civil War and Benjamin the Great’s Constitution. Now, although a steading’s police force is still known as the ‘Steadholder’s Guard,’ there are strict constitutional limits on the orders a steadholder may legitimately give to its members. Within a steading’s guard, however, a steadholder is entitled to a personal guard, a force of not more than fifty armsmen, which is answerable solely to him. Or to her. To whose armsmen he—or she—can legally give any order which doesn’t violate the Constitution. And from whose armsmen the security detail Grayson law requires accompany him—or her—at all times is drawn. The oaths of the other armsmen in any steading guard are sworn first to the Constitution and only then to the steadholder they serve. The oaths of your personal armsmen are sworn solely to you.”

Honor looked at him for a moment, then at the twelve men standing behind him. A part of her—a large part of her—shied away from the very notion that anyone might swear an oath which gave her such unbridled authority over them. If she understood Clinkscales correctly, and she was fairly certain she did, what he was saying was that she could give those men any order she chose, and they would be duty bound to obey it. In one way, that was no different from the authority that came with her commission as a Queen’s officer, but in another, it was totally different. As an officer of the Crown, she stood in a chain of command, of authority, which ran from the most junior passed midshipwoman all the way to the Queen herself. On Grayson—in Harrington—she was the Crown, and in an odd way, the notion of accepting “her” armsmens’ personal oath of fealty drove that home as her own oath to Benjamin Mayhew had not.
“And there’s no way I can get out of this, right?” she asked, only half-whimsically.
“No, My Lady. There’s not.”

penny wrote:Forgive me. I wasn't saying that that is the way it actually was. Or is. I am saying that as a steadholder she has legal obligations to her steading to remain alive. Especially since she didn't have an heir. She has an heir now, but it still seems that she shouldn't be legally allowed to jeopardize her life or the well-being of her steading for dangerous capacities that are not a part of her duties to the Queen. In a nutshell, that is partly why Hamish tried to stop her from dueling. Because of her duties to the Queen and country. These are essentially the things that Howard Clinksacales told her as why it is essential for her to have armsmen and unlawful for her not to.

tlb wrote:But if we follow your reasoning, that her life as a Steadholder is too valuable to risk; then she should have resigned her commission as an officer in the Navy when she was given a title. She has come much closer to dying (even with being shot in the back) in her ship to ship duels, then she ever did on the dueling ground (consider the fight between Fearless and Thunder of God, if the enemy had been handled better).

penny wrote:No, she shouldn't have. Read my post again.

That remains EXACTLY how I read your post. You did qualify your statement with "dangerous capacities that are not a part of her duties to the Queen"; but if she resigned her commission, then she would be acting in what you might consider the best interests of her subjects and her duty to the Queen would no longer include "dangerous capacities". Further, her duty to her subjects would preclude her from accepting a commision in Grayson's Navy.

penny wrote:I am only admitting my own feelings in this instance, and nothing more.

And yes, I have previously stated my distaste for dueling. But since then, a friend has softened by view of it. He said to me. "If some asshole had murdered your mother you'd want justice. Dueling allows you to legally exact that justice. In the manner that you would see fit. Instead of locking him up and feeding him for the rest of his life. You wouldn't think that is justice."

Ok, I am softened.

So do you accept that it was right and necessary for Honor to duel Denver Summervale and Pavel Young? Because that is precisely the circumstance which she found herself in, after substituting loved one for mother. Worse for her in a way, because there was no legal avenue to lock the two of them up for life. Dueling was her only chance to extract justice.

Still, that is only a softening, because most dueling was not a way to justice; instead it was over a social slight that impugned someone's honor. Honor is exceptional in that all three of her duels have been in pursuit of justice.

.