How does Honor know so much?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:

cthia wrote:Are all Meyerdahl-B mods Alphas?

If any had signed on to the Alignment (back in Leonard Detweiler day), yes. Whether they stayed in the Alignment or had drifted away like the Harrington's is a different question.

I wish to point out that there is NO evidence that the Harringtons of Sphynx inherited any Alignment gene-mods. IMHO, Allison would have noticed that when she looked. AFAICT, the Meyerdahl-B mods are a well documented set (that predate Earth's Final War, let alone the birth of Leonard Detweiler).

Things are becoming more awry with the responses. My spider senses are still tingling.

If Honor is not an Alpha, then it is true the Harringtons did not receive any Alignment gene mods. But the Meyerdahl-B mods did receive an IQ enhancement. We know that enhancement worked just fine because of Stephanie's test scores; which I think are far more significant than what ThinksMarkedly's willing to agree on. And we know how intelligent Honor is, and how she towers above almost everyone in the galaxy in strategy and tactics. And I don't see evidence of a single Alignment Alpha who has shown any above average intellect. Let alone equal to Honor's.

I am willing to concede that storyline thus far might now have allowed for fleshing out an Alpha's true intellect. And I am also willing to concede that the entirety of the MA as a whole has shown an amazing affinity for solving problems; if we consider their unorthodox approach to technology to counter traditional tactics and tech.

But if the Harringtons are not Alphas and their IQ is simply the result of the IQ enhancement of the Meyerdahl-B mods, then what does that say about an Alpha's IQ that is obtained by crossing the line set by the Beowulf code? To what ends? They appear to be no more intelligent than Honor.

I will say it again. Honor is on the same side of the Mensa line as an MA Alpha. The only difference being the options added. They certainly haven't erased the side-effects or the Bardasano line wouldn't have ever been in danger of being culled.

Conclusion. All Meyerdahl-B mods have as much of an IQ boost as any Alpha. Because the Meyerdahl-B mods mined the IQ dry before the MA's added options.

cthia wrote:But if the Harringtons are not Alphas and their IQ is simply the result of the IQ enhancement of the Meyerdahl-B mods, then what does that say about an Alpha's IQ that is obtained by crossing the line set by the Beowulf code? To what ends? They appear to be no more intelligent than Honor.

I will say it again. Honor is on the same side of the Mensa line as an MA Alpha. The only difference being the options added. They certainly haven't erased the side-effects or the Bardasano line wouldn't have ever been in danger of being culled.

Conclusion. All Meyerdahl-B mods have as much of an IQ boost as any Alpha. Because the Meyerdahl-B mods mined the IQ dry before the MA's added options.

The Malign has done many things that cross the line set by the Beowulf code, but I am not sure that all of their intelligence enhancements qualify (except for things like the attempt to improve math abilities, that so far just produce extreme catatonic responses that are culled).

It says in text that the doctors that created the Meyerdahl-B changes were simply lucky. But the book also says that the Harringtons are smarter than the average Meyerdahl-B (if I read that correctly); so who knows. Whatever it is, we still do not know if more could be obtained.

cthia wrote:But if the Harringtons are not Alphas and their IQ is simply the result of the IQ enhancement of the Meyerdahl-B mods, then what does that say about an Alpha's IQ that is obtained by crossing the line set by the Beowulf code? To what ends? They appear to be no more intelligent than Honor.

And THAT is exactly the whole point!

For all the centuries of genetic tinkering, the suffering they've caused on their own and on others, the Alphas of the MAlign are not better than Honor.

Which means that even if the ends justified the means (and we know they don't), the ends aren't worth it either.

A partisan of the MAlign might say that there's nothing wrong with that intelligent, nay brilliant people will turn up through random chance. With a population in the 2 to 3 trillion beings, one in a million means there are 2 million more like you; one in a billion means there are still 2000. So of course the intelligent people would stand out, wherever they were born. The objective of the non-evil Alignment members on Mesa and the public excuse for the evil ones was to raise the average for everyone in the long term, so that Honor wouldn't be better than maybe Top 1% of the human race.

I will say it again. Honor is on the same side of the Mensa line as an MA Alpha. The only difference being the options added. They certainly haven't erased the side-effects or the Bardasano line wouldn't have ever been in danger of being culled.

Conclusion. All Meyerdahl-B mods have as much of an IQ boost as any Alpha. Because the Meyerdahl-B mods mined the IQ dry before the MA's added options.

We don't know that. We know of two examples of intelligent Meyerdahl-B mod recipients, plus three more accomplished members in their own fields (Richard, Marjorie and Alfred). But neither Devon nor Sarah Harrington have stood out at all, and we know the Harrington Clan was actually quite big prior to the Yawata Strike. We can't infer anything from absence of information, though.

I will only agree to what was explicitly stated on the books: that Meyerdahl-B did get some IQ boosts above average. And I will accept that the MAlign incorporated this into their own genetic sequences as soon as practical.

cthia wrote:Conclusion. All Meyerdahl-B mods have as much of an IQ boost as any Alpha. Because the Meyerdahl-B mods mined the IQ dry before the MA's added options.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:We don't know that. We know of two examples of intelligent Meyerdahl-B mod recipients, plus three more accomplished members in their own fields (Richard, Marjorie and Alfred). But neither Devon nor Sarah Harrington have stood out at all, and we know the Harrington Clan was actually quite big prior to the Yawata Strike. We can't infer anything from absence of information, though.

I will only agree to what was explicitly stated on the books: that Meyerdahl-B did get some IQ boosts above average. And I will accept that the MAlign incorporated this into their own genetic sequences as soon as practical.

I hate to feed the idea that the Harringtons are a lost Alpha line, but we do know more about them than you said. From chapter 17 of Ashes of Victory:

"But even assuming we can all agree on what does constitute a natural 'leap forward,' those sorts of things happen only very occasionally. And we only know about the instances in which it happened and was conserved . . . which is approximately what happened in the case of your ancestors.
"I ran the Harrington intelligence test results against the base norms for their populations, both here and back on Meyerdahl, and the evidence is very clear. So far, I've found only three Harringtons who placed below the ninety-fifth percentile in general intelligence, and well over eighty-five percent of those I've been able to check placed in the ninety-nine-plus percentile. You tend to be very smart people, and if I hadn't wound up in the same select company according to my own test scores, I'd probably come all over inferior feeling or something of the sort."

So whether or not the Harringtons are a lost Alpha line, the improvement of human intelligence has NOT been "mined dry"; note that the Harringtons ranked at the top of the Meyerdahl population which includes B-genies. Also note that Allison, who would not have any changes that violated Beowulf code, also ranked as high.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:But if the Harringtons are not Alphas and their IQ is simply the result of the IQ enhancement of the Meyerdahl-B mods, then what does that say about an Alpha's IQ that is obtained by crossing the line set by the Beowulf code? To what ends? They appear to be no more intelligent than Honor.

And THAT is exactly the whole point!

For all the centuries of genetic tinkering, the suffering they've caused on their own and on others, the Alphas of the MAlign are not better than Honor.

Well, the average alpha seems to be very bright. And pretty arrogant - which is their main weakness.

kzt wrote:Well, the average alpha seems to be very bright. And pretty arrogant - which is their main weakness.

Which is both of my points. They are very bright, but still comparable to Honor. However, there may be far more of them than the general population, as tlb has just posted that the Harringtons are Top 5%, with the vast majority actually Top 1%.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

kzt wrote:Well, the average alpha seems to be very bright. And pretty arrogant - which is their main weakness.

Which is both of my points. They are very bright, but still comparable to Honor. However, there may be far more of them than the general population, as tlb has just posted that the Harringtons are Top 5%, with the vast majority actually Top 1%.

Both of your posts are the cornerstones of what I have been saying for years. The available IQ has long since been mined dry. The only thing left to do is to attempt to try to pinpoint specific areas of the brain by enhancing math skills. But as has been conceded by tlb, this technique probably runs afoul of the Beowulf code. Hence, the expected side-effects. I suppose the MA, being who they are, had to try. But it would appear that the available IQ had already been mined dry by Beowulf. The BME is not wasteful.

What I think many of us have been incorrectly assuming over the years is that the MA has been producing Alphas whose IQ is above the norm of Honor's own enhancement. I have been saying for years that it isn't. The Alignment's goals have simply been to increase the overall population of genies throughout the Galaxy. That would level the playing field if the entire Galaxy is all genies. That entire notion fuels my rant about how difficult it should prove to be to battle a navy composed of all Honor Harringtons.

I also caution the use of statistics when it comes to intelligence. And intelligence tests. I have often asserted in the Politics forum that the use of statistics by unqualified people should be illegal.

Take for instance the fact that the Harringtons rank at the top of the Meyerdahl population. Let us also consider the three Harringtons who placed below the ninety-five percentile. Let us also consider the lower IQ of Sarah and Devon Harrington. Now let us place all of these lower IQs in one group.

Is their lower IQ an absolute? Or is it a factor of a lot of other criteria which includes such things as career, job, economic status, location, etc., etc. We know here on Earth minorities consistently rank lower on IQ tests, which has absolutely nothing to do with their IQ and everything to do with the bias of the tests, etc.

If Einstein had decided that he really likes art better and decided to become a painter, would his high IQ fly under the radar? The fact that Devon decided to become a historian just like Weber might not have provided an opportunity for his IQ to stand out. Although as a historian, Weber did go on to develop (but not invent) handwavium. Sarah is in politics, which is not necessarily the forum for showing ones high intellect either. Anyway, there might be some truth that we are a product of our environments and experiences.

The MA's goals are to make everyone in the Galaxy an Alpha by genetic tampering. And they try to ensure their success in their neck of the woods by providing an environment that ensures this goal by hook or by crook or by cull.

Let me correct something I said upstream about nobody in the MA showing above average intelligence. As kzt correctly stated, a lot of them seem to have high IQs. I meant to say none of their IQ seems to exceed Honor's, or the average of IQ enhancement. Anisimovna definitely appears to be at least equal to Honor. IMO. Of course, I might be a bit biased in favor of Niecy.

Should we also consider the fact that two equally intelligent people should have a higher probability of conceiving a child with a higher IQ? Alfred and Allison are both intelligent. Neither of them married a dummy.

BTW, since the IQ mod is not locked, would natural progression (evolution) inevitably produce people that exceed the limit of what the brain can cope with?

Does text give us the mods of Leonard Detweiler's? The man was a genius but he might have been a mite unhinged. If things like unhinged, psychopathy, anger issues, arrogance and delusions of grandeur are all side-effects of increased intelligence, then the Galaxy is going to self destruct if Leonard Detweiler's dream comes true.

cthia wrote:Should we also consider the fact that two equally intelligent people should have a higher probability of conceiving a child with a higher IQ? Alfred and Allison are both intelligent. Neither of them married a dummy.

BTW, since the IQ mod is not locked, would natural progression (evolution) inevitably produce people that exceed the limit of what the brain can cope with?

I do not believe that it is possible for someone to exhibit intelligence that exceeds what the brain is capable of handling. So presumably the brain will need more surface folds at some point.

If two highly intelligent people can produce a child that is more intelligent, then intelligence is not necessarily capped.

cthia wrote:The Alignment's goals have simply been to increase the overall population of genies throughout the Galaxy. That would level the playing field if the entire Galaxy is all genies. That entire notion fuels my rant about how difficult it should prove to be to battle a navy composed of all Honor Harringtons.

That's the overt goal.

If Einstein had decided that he really likes art better and decided to become a painter, would his high IQ fly under the radar? The fact that Devon decided to become a historian just like Weber might not have provided an opportunity for his IQ to stand out. Although as a historian, Weber did go on to develop (but not invent) handwavium. Sarah is in politics, which is not necessarily the forum for showing ones high intellect either. Anyway, there might be some truth that we are a product of our environments and experiences.

I never claimed that they're not intelligent or that their IQ is low. That would actually be against what was posted of Allison's research, though at the time I didn't remember that excerpt and was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and claim they were average. What I said that they haven´t stood out.

We also know from Allison that increased intelligence often comes with side-effects. So the Harringtons may suffer from some of them as a general rule and become introverts, never expressing their genius, with just a few actually overcoming that limitation. Though this is speculation on my part.

The MA's goals are to make everyone in the Galaxy an Alpha by genetic tampering. And they try to ensure their success in their neck of the woods by providing an environment that ensures this goal by hook or by crook or by cull.

No, no it isn't. Well, that may be the overt story that the Benign Alignment was sold and was most likely what Leonard Detweiler was proposing, but it isn't what the Malignant Alignment was trying to do and definitely not what the Detweilers had planned. They had never planned on levelling everyone so that everyone had the same starting opportunities. The plan was to keep having different strata of people, like the Alpha, Beta and Gamma lines, so the "betters" ruled the "lessers," with the Detweilers as the Top Best.

That's not to say that the lowest Gamma wouldn't be more intelligent, healthier, sturdier, more beautiful than the current average human. I'm not denying that their genetic tinkering may have produced results. The problem is both their approach and the fact that they really want to keep the society in strata.

Let me correct something I said upstream about nobody in the MA showing above average intelligence. As kzt correctly stated, a lot of them seem to have high IQs. I meant to say none of their IQ seems to exceed Honor's, or the average of IQ enhancement. Anisimovna definitely appears to be at least equal to Honor. IMO. Of course, I might be a bit biased in favor of Niecy.

I agree with you here. It's quite likely that the average Alignment member is above the average of the rest of the human race, possibly significantly above. Again, I'm not denying they've achieved results.

But we can't know for sure, because of sampling bias. Anisimovna is highly intelligent and capable (and also gorgeous and ruthless), but she was tasked with what she was tasked because she was intelligent and capable (and gorgeous and ruthless). The characters we see acting on behalf of the Alignment are already selected based on their capabilities, so it is no surprise that they are above average. For the same reason are Honor, White Haven, Theisman, Kevin Usher, Cachat, Princess Ruth and the Zilwickis. But we get a far bigger view of Manticore society and politics, where the main characters had to struggle with mundane tasks, so we see the ones that are plain average.

Does text give us the mods of Leonard Detweiler's? The man was a genius but he might have been a mite unhinged. If things like unhinged, psychopathy, anger issues, arrogance and delusions of grandeur are all side-effects of increased intelligence, then the Galaxy is going to self destruct if Leonard Detweiler's dream comes true.

Well... then we can rest safely in the knowledge it won't because the series is named after Honor Harrington, not Leonard Detweiler

Though RFC has said that Leonard has been proven right that improving Humanity's quality of life through genetic modifications is a good thing. As I said above, the problem was the means and the stratification that his descendants are attempting to create.

cthia wrote:Does text give us the mods of Leonard Detweiler's? The man was a genius but he might have been a mite unhinged. If things like unhinged, psychopathy, anger issues, arrogance and delusions of grandeur are all side-effects of increased intelligence, then the Galaxy is going to self destruct if Leonard Detweiler's dream comes true.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Well... then we can rest safely in the knowledge it won't because the series is named after Honor Harrington, not Leonard Detweiler

Though RFC has said that Leonard has been proven right that improving Humanity's quality of life through genetic modifications is a good thing. As I said above, the problem was the means and the stratification that his descendants are attempting to create.

If you really mean Leonard Detweiler, then it is entirely possible that he had NO genetic modifications. However we cannot be sure because there were some modification sets that preceded the war. The people with the most extensive modifications are Albrecht Detweiler and his "sons", the results of about six hundred years of experimentation that followed the founding of Mesa.

What we know is that there CAN be deleterious side effects with modifications for increased intelligence, but there need not be. Both the royal family modifications and the Meyerdahl-B modifications have an intelligence boost and the only noticeable side effects are possibly the Queen's ability to hold a grudge and the Harrington's rage when loved ones are threatened (but both side effects have positive aspects).