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jaydub69 wrote:Been a while since I've read the fury series but I think that's exactly how it's described. The ship is continuously creating black holes that briefly exist one after another ahead of it and the ship is sucked forward by them. There is also some mechanism that prevents the ship from being crushed instantly in this process. It's at least as fictonally believable as a "wedge", "compensator","grav plates", and insanely massive amounts of free energy from hypespace to me.

I find futuristic technology easier to believe when I do not have some measuring stick to put against it. Therefore I find wedges easier to believe than a ship propelled by a black hole in its nose. I know nothing about wedges except what the author has told me; but I can see that if the black hole is persistent, then the author needs to come up with futuristic technology just to keep the ship out of the hole and the force it applies cancels the force from the hole - so no movement. Meanwhile the energy requirements for creating and controlling a black hole could have been put to direct use to move the ship.

Another example, I really like the way the people interact in David Drake's RCN series and am very sad that there will be no more. However I have to slide past things about the electrical properties of his ships in space, that I cannot believe.

PS: the absolute worst thing I have seen occurs in Star Wars, where they show an anti-gravity oxcart. Either put wheels on it or use a faction of the energy that is levitating it, to get rid of the ox and move it forward.

tlb wrote:PS: the absolute worst thing I have seen occurs in Star Wars, where they show an anti-gravity oxcart. Either put wheels on it or use a faction of the energy that is levitating it, to get rid of the ox and move it forward.

Yeah. The only way something like that makes any kind of sense is if anti-grav, or repulsors, or whatever you call it are so advanced they they include a long term self contained power source.

In that scenario you might well have someone without the skill level to adjust it or a way to divert power, able to salvage the unit of a wreck or something and bolt it onto a box that able to hover but not move itself. But even that's a long shot.

(Though close to the ground there's something still to be said for having a motive force that's in contact with the ground, even if most of the load's weight has been removed by magic tech. Otherwise you end up with hovercraft control problems --where it's fairly hard to turn well, or stop, as without the friction of the ground to work against you tend to just keep sliding. But I don't know that an ox team yoked to any serious amount of mass would be able to provide the lateral forces to keep a floating load behind them under control)

Agreed, star wars and Star trek are pretty awful examples of future tech making any sense. Star trek has replicators that can literally make anything at the asking. Truly a society of endless abundance and godlike powers yet everything else about it doesn't track with that capability. At least DW thinks things through a bit deeper than that.

tlb wrote:PS: the black hole in the nose of a ship is the most ridiculous violation of the known laws in any book that I have read. I would rather he used James Blish's spindizzy than that.

More than the infinite improbability drive?

tlb wrote:

jaydub69 wrote:Been a while since I've read the fury series but I think that's exactly how it's described. The ship is continuously creating black holes that briefly exist one after another ahead of it and the ship is sucked forward by them. There is also some mechanism that prevents the ship from being crushed instantly in this process. It's at least as fictonally believable as a "wedge", "compensator","grav plates", and insanely massive amounts of free energy from hypespace to me.

I find futuristic technology easier to believe when I do not have some measuring stick to put against it. Therefore I find wedges easier to believe than a ship propelled by a black hole in its nose. I know nothing about wedges except what the author has told me; but I can see that if the black hole is persistent, then the author needs to come up with futuristic technology just to keep the ship out of the hole and the force it applies cancels the force from the hole - so no movement. Meanwhile the energy requirements for creating and controlling a black hole could have been put to direct use to move the ship.

Another example, I really like the way the people interact in David Drake's RCN series and am very sad that there will be no more. However I have to slide past things about the electrical properties of his ships in space, that I cannot believe.

PS: the absolute worst thing I have seen occurs in Star Wars, where they show an anti-gravity oxcart. Either put wheels on it or use a faction of the energy that is levitating it, to get rid of the ox and move it forward.

As you also said upstream jaydub69, I find black hole propulsion quite acceptable. In fact, of all the sci-fi propulsion systems in my life time, I find this theme to be among the most credible. Genius actually. It just makes good logical sense and I don't understand why tlb does not agree.

Tlb, I am not familiar with the series and as a result of that I need clarification on one point. You keep saying the black hole is in the nose of the ship. As in literally onboard the ship? If so, I will agree that that does not make any sense.

But a black hole that is instantly created off the bow of the ship at the optimum distance (Swarsczchild radius) should work perfectly.

Do you disagree that a big enough neodymium magnet which suddenly appeared off the bow of a ship would instantly accelerate the ship? In a sense there is a Swarsczchild radius of a super magnet as well. Beyond that point it is relatively safe. Thrusters should keep you stabilized. But a super attractive force like a black hole materializing at its Swarsczchild radius, perhaps, off the bow of the ship will instantly accelerate the ship. Like (the abysmally small in relation to) neodymium magnets that manage to instantly achieve accelerations of 200 mph.

At any rate, it isn't propelling the ship. It is an infinite attractive force that is quickly moving away from the ship dragging the ship after. It is a pulling force, not a pushing force. The engine is "front mounted." That morsel isn't going to make it more believable, but I wanted it to be accurate.

I agree there would be problems to solve, but an intelligence that can create black holes in the first place can handle the small fries no problem.

And I also think you are wrong about the efficiency of something like that. First off, why do you believe such a system would be a waste of energy or cost a lot of energy to create? Weber's wedges don't need a lot of energy in comparison to start the engines. And once going the wedge creates a lot more energy than its battery.

However, in a black hole energy source, the infinite gravity could be used as the mechanism of a gravity battery which fuels the entire ship. The wedge only powers itself. Advantage, "black hole horsepower."

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Therefore, as a sort of spin on the mechanism used on the Maglev trains that continuously turn on and off the magnetic portion of a track to keep the train moving at high speeds, an entity who can manipulate black holes can quickly create them off the bow of the ship in rapid succession right at the Schwarzschild radius to keep the ship moving very quickly.

I actually mentioned this as the only possible answer the last time I discussed this ridiculous method in this forum. I rejected it then and now, because the energy required to repeatedly create and destroy would be better spent by just moving the ship (and no you cannot regain all the energy needed to create a new one, when you destroy the previous one). This does even begin to discuss the oscillating tidal effects such a process would entail, that are most likely to destroy the ship after killing all life on it.
How do Honorverse ships generate energy?

Why not? Energy is being drawn from a truly infinite power source.* Consider an "infinite power" power source. It should have no problems charging a battery or high capacity instant charge capacitors. A black hole can deliver all the energy any application will ever need, instantly.

*Unlike the allegedly infinite power source masquerading as the wedge.


Beware double post

cthia wrote:Therefore, as a sort of spin on the mechanism used on the Maglev trains that continuously turn on and off the magnetic portion of a track to keep the train moving at high speeds, an entity who can manipulate black holes can quickly create them off the bow of the ship in rapid succession right at the Schwarzschild radius to keep the ship moving very quickly.

tlb wrote:I actually mentioned this as the only possible answer the last time I discussed this ridiculous method in this forum. I rejected it then and now, because the energy required to repeatedly create and destroy would be better spent by just moving the ship (and no you cannot regain all the energy needed to create a new one, when you destroy the previous one). This does {NOT}* even begin to discuss the oscillating tidal effects such a process would entail, that are most likely to destroy the ship after killing all life on it.

*{error in original text}

cthia wrote:Why not? Energy is being drawn from a truly infinite power source.* Consider an "infinite power" power source. It should have no problems charging a battery or high capacity instant charge capacitors. A black hole can deliver all the energy any application will ever need, instantly.

*Unlike the allegedly infinite power source masquerading as the wedge.

That is extremely sloppy thinking; there is not a black hole to draw energy from, since that is the thing that the ship is creating and destroying for "motive" power. So apparently the ship needs "infinite" power to initially create the black hole and start the process of moving?!?!

PS: one thing about a black hole is that it only grudgingly gives up energy (Hawking radiation), so I expect it is incorrect to believe that it is such a useful power source.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Therefore, as a sort of spin on the mechanism used on the Maglev trains that continuously turn on and off the magnetic portion of a track to keep the train moving at high speeds, an entity who can manipulate black holes can quickly create them off the bow of the ship in rapid succession right at the Schwarzschild radius to keep the ship moving very quickly.

tlb wrote:I actually mentioned this as the only possible answer the last time I discussed this ridiculous method in this forum. I rejected it then and now, because the energy required to repeatedly create and destroy would be better spent by just moving the ship (and no you cannot regain all the energy needed to create a new one, when you destroy the previous one). This does {NOT}* even begin to discuss the oscillating tidal effects such a process would entail, that are most likely to destroy the ship after killing all life on it.

*{error in original text}

cthia wrote:Why not? Energy is being drawn from a truly infinite power source.* Consider an "infinite power" power source. It should have no problems charging a battery or high capacity instant charge capacitors. A black hole can deliver all the energy any application will ever need, instantly.

*Unlike the allegedly infinite power source masquerading as the wedge.

That is extremely sloppy thinking; there is not a black hole to draw energy from, since that is the thing that the ship is creating and destroying for "motive" power. So apparently the ship needs "infinite" power to initially create the black hole and start the process of moving?!?!

PS: one thing about a black hole is that it only grudgingly gives up energy (Hawking radiation), so I expect it is incorrect to believe that it is such a useful power source.

Why? HV ships do not need infinite power to create the allegedly infinite power source that calls itself the wedge.

Gravity battery.

cthia wrote:Why not? Energy is being drawn from a truly infinite power source.* Consider an "infinite power" power source. It should have no problems charging a battery or high capacity instant charge capacitors. A black hole can deliver all the energy any application will ever need, instantly.

*Unlike the allegedly infinite power source masquerading as the wedge.

tlb wrote:That is extremely sloppy thinking; there is not a black hole to draw energy from, since that is the thing that the ship is creating and destroying for "motive" power. So apparently the ship needs "infinite" power to initially create the black hole and start the process of moving?!?!

PS: one thing about a black hole is that it only grudgingly gives up energy (Hawking radiation), so I expect it is incorrect to believe that it is such a useful power source.

cthia wrote:Why? HV ships do not need infinite power to create the allegedly infinite power source that calls itself the wedge.

Gravity battery.

Whether a wedge is an "infinite" power source is irrelevant to any discussion of using a black hole to move a ship.

A gravity battery is a way of shifting power usage from peak hours to off peak hours: one way is to use off-peak power to pump water uphill and then during peak hours use that water to power generators. I fail to see how that helps power your ship, when there are no off-peak hours.

tlb wrote:PS: one thing about a black hole is that it only grudgingly gives up energy (Hawking radiation), so I expect it is incorrect to believe that it is such a useful power source.

Actually, it is. A billion-tonne black hole would have a Schwarzschild radius of 1.5 femtometres, would last for 1.5 trillion years and would give off 356 MW of power in Hawking radiation. And a one-billion tonne black hole at 1 m of distance is no more gravitationally dangerous than a one-billion tonne asteroid at 1 m of distance -- for comparison, the Dimorphos moon that the DART impacted with has an estimated mass of 5 billion tonnes.