[Spoiler - UH] utube snippet

ywing14 wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:
With a bit of luck, we will learn about all of this in the next book.

Chances are, there is a lot that can be learned. And I'd bet there are survivors on Mesa who can point out a lot of things about genetics.

Remember that Houdini was rushed. There will be people around who know things. And GA intelligence people who will know what to ask.

I agree, while I realize it was a nuclear explosion, generally speaking not everything is destroyed the way people think. Many times pieces and things are left behind that people would have assumed would be consumed by the blast. I don't even necessarily think it'll be people, though some people "running late" wouldn't shock.

Harahap has figured out a lot more than was thought possible by the Detweilers, why not others? There are constant reminders that things get left behind. Remember that the GA can send a lot of intelligence people to Mesa for quite a while. It is no longer run by MAlign.

ywing14 wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:
With a bit of luck, we will learn about all of this in the next book.

Chances are, there is a lot that can be learned. And I'd bet there are survivors on Mesa who can point out a lot of things about genetics.

Remember that Houdini was rushed. There will be people around who know things. And GA intelligence people who will know what to ask.

I agree, while I realize it was a nuclear explosion, generally speaking not everything is destroyed the way people think. Many times pieces and things are left behind that people would have assumed would be consumed by the blast. I don't even necessarily think it'll be people, though some people "running late" wouldn't shock.

Harahap has figured out a lot more than was thought possible by the Detweilers, why not others? There are constant reminders that things get left behind. Remember that the GA can send a lot of intelligence people to Mesa for quite a while. It is no longer run by MAlign.[/quote]

I don't think there will be other with as much knowledge mostly because even the Malign wasn't thrilled with how much information it had to give him. So I find it unlikely there are anymore true intelligence folks left. They cleaned those up pretty well in the last scene. Maybe some researchers/scientists. Harahap's capture was to some extent a fluke. It is only by chance that he got stuck on that planet. I'll be interested to see if Mr. Weber talks about that from the point of view of the Malign. Especially first when they realize he's overdue, second, when they find out what's happening on the planet, and third when they suspect/find out he was captured.

As far as the Alignment finding out that Harlap is still alive, that is going to take some doing.
1st the Streak Drive ship that got him a system away from the planet he was on will have to learn a) the government of the planet he went to (and hasn't returned from) went through sucessfull uprising and then b) they need to report that even if the word could be expected to get back to the Alignmente though other sources.
Of course, they probably wont get much detail other than there was a rebellion (which is exactly what Harlap was working on causing) but it is unlikely that much of the circumstances -such as who blew up the ship with the system president on it and that what was happening on the ground was actualy a 3-plus way fight between two factions in the governmental armed forces and the rebels. Depending on orders- and because dam little will be heading for that system and even less comming out if it- his ship may have left before Harlap is captured.
Either way, it is unlikely that the new government is going to be spreading any information on Firebrand. It is also highly likely that what small network or connections Firebrand had on the planet other than his primary contacts with the resistence group are no longer around. Call is collateral damage of the who was fighting who and where this stuff was going on.
Also, where did that ship go to ultimatly make the report and was it caught at Mesa if it went there?

While the Alignment will have a lot of assets still in-play, a major communication and support nexus is gone- Mesa isn't particularly usefull any more as a focus of anything Alignment. 1st you had the pulling out of people-and elimination of others through Houdenii which killed an awful lot of people just as cover for the ones extracted and then "tidied up" a lot more- with another round of collateral casualties, and then Albrect set off that 30 odd nuclear blasts on planet and at least one at a Lagrange point station in space.
How many ships connected to the Alignmet -vs just Mesen companies and various Transstellars or non-connected freighters were caught by 10th fleet we don't know, but the place is going to be off limits to Alighment ships who get word it has fallen to Manticore.

So perhaps there is a couple of alternate sets of communications and support through the RF systems but nothing like the support and hub complex that was Mesa. Direct traffic to (and any knowlege of) Darius and the shadow wormhole network is very closely held so communications are going to have to go through a lot of intersting cut-outs before getting to Darius.

Do you really think that very many ships that were operating for the Alignment as sub-contractors, slavers and smugglers were going to get a memo saying : After X date don't go to Mesa because we will have closed the office there? Much more likely a whold bunch of them are just going to get cut off from their former employment (and ultimatly be thankful of that when the may figure out that a lot of their fellow former employees have vanished.).

So lets suppose that it takes a couple of months for word to get back to the people who were handeling the false flag rebellion operations -that are still alive and working for the Alignment- and then how long before they are able to dispatch some one to sniff around for any sign of Harlap. That doesn't count that the people he helped with the rebellion having planted an adiquate trail of info that he was killed before the end of the fighting- which woiuld have continued on the ground while the victors sorted out and subdued the losers.

By this time, Harlap may have already given Manticore some info that coiuld help in identifying the ship or type/class of ships he was on that had the Streak Drive- he DID know he was using unusually fast transport. So there could be a RMN or even a Beowulf Biological Survey covert ship hanging around that system watching for just such a move by this time.

All those people- on Mesa at least- and including what we can guess is a fair number of agents and people who don't know they were working for the Alignment not then on Mesa who have the Reset or Die "enhancement" are going to start dying. That was just another piece of the long term tactical insurance to tying off loose ends for the Alignment. They "KNOW" Harlap had that, Isobel had him in specificaly in for treatments and his records went the way of Gamma Center along with her and a lot of the people involved.

Perhaps someone who reports -they don't have to be actual Alignment agents, just people breaking laws collecting and passing on informations like the contents of Hausman's will for money- an interesting and closely held capture by ONI will spark a search in the direction of RMN ONI but the Alignment is trying that anyway.

I don't see someone finding him in the near future- even if they are specifically looking for him- unless the plot demands it.

Brigade XO wrote:As far as the Alignment finding out that Harlap is still alive, that is going to take some doing.
1st the Streak Drive ship that got him a system away from the planet he was on will have to learn a) the government of the planet he went to (and hasn't returned from) went through sucessfull uprising and then b) they need to report that even if the word could be expected to get back to the Alignmente though other sources.
Of course, they probably wont get much detail other than there was a rebellion (which is exactly what Harlap was working on causing) but it is unlikely that much of the circumstances -such as who blew up the ship with the system president on it and that what was happening on the ground was actualy a 3-plus way fight between two factions in the governmental armed forces and the rebels. Depending on orders- and because dam little will be heading for that system and even less comming out if it- his ship may have left before Harlap is captured.
Either way, it is unlikely that the new government is going to be spreading any information on Firebrand. It is also highly likely that what small network or connections Firebrand had on the planet other than his primary contacts with the resistence group are no longer around. Call is collateral damage of the who was fighting who and where this stuff was going on.
Also, where did that ship go to ultimatly make the report and was it caught at Mesa if it went there?

While the Alignment will have a lot of assets still in-play, a major communication and support nexus is gone- Mesa isn't particularly usefull any more as a focus of anything Alignment. 1st you had the pulling out of people-and elimination of others through Houdenii which killed an awful lot of people just as cover for the ones extracted and then "tidied up" a lot more- with another round of collateral casualties, and then Albrect set off that 30 odd nuclear blasts on planet and at least one at a Lagrange point station in space.
How many ships connected to the Alignmet -vs just Mesen companies and various Transstellars or non-connected freighters were caught by 10th fleet we don't know, but the place is going to be off limits to Alighment ships who get word it has fallen to Manticore.

So perhaps there is a couple of alternate sets of communications and support through the RF systems but nothing like the support and hub complex that was Mesa. Direct traffic to (and any knowlege of) Darius and the shadow wormhole network is very closely held so communications are going to have to go through a lot of intersting cut-outs before getting to Darius.

Do you really think that very many ships that were operating for the Alignment as sub-contractors, slavers and smugglers were going to get a memo saying : After X date don't go to Mesa because we will have closed the office there? Much more likely a whold bunch of them are just going to get cut off from their former employment (and ultimatly be thankful of that when the may figure out that a lot of their fellow former employees have vanished.).

So lets suppose that it takes a couple of months for word to get back to the people who were handeling the false flag rebellion operations -that are still alive and working for the Alignment- and then how long before they are able to dispatch some one to sniff around for any sign of Harlap. That doesn't count that the people he helped with the rebellion having planted an adiquate trail of info that he was killed before the end of the fighting- which woiuld have continued on the ground while the victors sorted out and subdued the losers.

By this time, Harlap may have already given Manticore some info that coiuld help in identifying the ship or type/class of ships he was on that had the Streak Drive- he DID know he was using unusually fast transport. So there could be a RMN or even a Beowulf Biological Survey covert ship hanging around that system watching for just such a move by this time.

All those people- on Mesa at least- and including what we can guess is a fair number of agents and people who don't know they were working for the Alignment not then on Mesa who have the Reset or Die "enhancement" are going to start dying. That was just another piece of the long term tactical insurance to tying off loose ends for the Alignment. They "KNOW" Harlap had that, Isobel had him in specificaly in for treatments and his records went the way of Gamma Center along with her and a lot of the people involved.

Perhaps someone who reports -they don't have to be actual Alignment agents, just people breaking laws collecting and passing on informations like the contents of Hausman's will for money- an interesting and closely held capture by ONI will spark a search in the direction of RMN ONI but the Alignment is trying that anyway.

I don't see someone finding him in the near future- even if they are specifically looking for him- unless the plot demands it.

Harahap never got the kill switch.

I was wondering what would happen when the Alignment went looking for him as well. It was implied that he could run but he couldn't hide. That was one of the reasons he took the job; because the Alignment made him an offer he couldn't refuse. (As mentioned by David in the snippet.)

But, when the Alignment send someone looking for him, the RMN could lie in wait in hopes to get the ship sent, with details rendered to them by Harahap about the systems where they'd search for him.

As far as Mesa, the aftermath of a rushed Houdini is appalling to me. Sick. Even that bloodthirsty psychopathic Bardasano saw the measure of killing she'd have to do. Which also makes me wonder how the Alignment will keep news of what happened to everybody's family and loved ones away from the evacuees, and what will happen when that anger reverberates through the Alignment causing more Simoes. It is as if they didn't learn a damn thing. S'pose it's just too late in the game for them to change centuries old tactics.

Also, I'd think the Alignment would have wanted to keep people on Mesa to test the waters for conspiracy theories that come too close to the head (think Julia Roberts in the Pelican Brief) and for cats who have become too curious.

cthia wrote:Harahap never got the kill switch.

I was wondering what would happen when the Alignment went looking for him as well. It was implied that he could run but he couldn't hide. That was one of the reasons he took the job; because the Alignment made him an offer he couldn't refuse. (As mentioned by David in the snippet.)

But, when the Alignment send someone looking for him, the RMN could lie in wait in hopes to get the ship sent, with details rendered to them by Harahap about the systems where they'd search for him.

As far as Mesa, the aftermath of a rushed Houdini is appalling to me. Sick. Even that bloodthirsty psychopathic Bardasano saw the measure of killing she'd have to do. Which also makes me wonder how the Alignment will keep news of what happened to everybody's family and loved ones away from the evacuees, and what will happen when that anger reverberates through the Alignment causing more Simoes. It is as if they didn't learn a damn thing. S'pose it's just too late in the game for them to change centuries old tactics.

Also, I'd think the Alignment would have wanted to keep people on Mesa to test the waters for conspiracy theories that come too close to the head (think Julia Roberts in the Pelican Brief) and for cats who have become too curious.

Isabel Bardasano died at Green Pines. You're thinking of someone else.

The basic plan behind Houdini was to withdraw silently, so nobody suspected anything. Then let Mesa collapse because there wasn't anyone pulling the puppet's strings. With no suspicions, there wouldn't be any motivation to vacuum up all kinds of little items to fit into a big picture.

That plan went south when Anton and Victor got out with Herlander, and they didn't have a carefully considered and refined Plan B waiting in the wings.

As far as Harahap is concerned, the MAlign ought to ignore him. By the time they find out he's still alive he's already told the Manties pretty much everything he knows about the Alignment. Anything they do to try to take him off the field will leave traces that can be followed right back to them.

I occurs to me that Albrect must have had people who knew about all the bombs that he had planted even if it was for a back-up from having to clean up after Houdine should that not have goine well (along the original timeline) and too much was left of the instilations that should have been quietly removed. If it was something added when the plan went into overdrive they may not have been quite as good at making sure everything at the 30 odd target was destroyed. Of course we are talking nuclear weapons here so there is still going to be dam little at the center of the locations.

How many of the people delivering and planting the weapons survived by the conclusion of the final flourish and then Albrects devices? It is quite possible that, particularly if that option was Colin and the other clones, the story given to almost everybody at Darius and the core of the Alignment could be that Manticore had captured someone/something that idetified many of the Alignment locations and Manti/Ballroom spies had been at the heart of the earlier strikes. They actualy don't have to provide much information at all to the vast majority of the Darius system, just that a major base was attached by their enemies and millions killed. The Houdini and related evacuees could get more detail but not much more that that between the Ballroom and then the Manticorian burst of almost mindless lashing out at Manpower and the genetic operations and support sturctures they were identified by the Ballroom, a great many of the people who had been left -supposedly in safety- on Mesa were now dead in the slaughter.

That, however, will also impart a great worry amoung the survivors and the other people now in hiding at Darius and other places about what else might have been discovered by their enemies and prompt a need to find out by the Houdini people if any of their own people survived. Messy, very messy, for the Alignment.

cthia wrote:
As far as Mesa, the aftermath of a rushed Houdini is appalling to me. Sick. Even that bloodthirsty psychopathic Bardasano saw the measure of killing she'd have to do. Which also makes me wonder how the Alignment will keep news of what happened to everybody's family and loved ones away from the evacuees, and what will happen when that anger reverberates through the Alignment causing more Simoes. It is as if they didn't learn a damn thing. S'pose it's just too late in the game for them to change centuries old tactics.

Yeah, that was some poor planning on Mesa's part. How did they plan to explain a bunch of military grade nuclear explosions to their people? Plus there are almost certainly stragglers who will get killed by their own nano. No way a bunch of super-smart people would buy that everyone they loved back home died of assorted natural causes.

Luckily for them, Henke has provided the perfect scapegoat, so they don't need to keep everything a secret! It was Manticore! And Manticore followed it up with murdering the friends left behind! Those monsters!

Also, I'd think the Alignment would have wanted to keep people on Mesa to test the waters for conspiracy theories that come too close to the head (think Julia Roberts in the Pelican Brief) and for cats who have become too curious.

Probably. They already have one.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

cthia wrote:
As far as Mesa, the aftermath of a rushed Houdini is appalling to me. Sick. Even that bloodthirsty psychopathic Bardasano saw the measure of killing she'd have to do. Which also makes me wonder how the Alignment will keep news of what happened to everybody's family and loved ones away from the evacuees, and what will happen when that anger reverberates through the Alignment causing more Simoes. It is as if they didn't learn a damn thing. S'pose it's just too late in the game for them to change centuries old tactics.

Yeah, that was some poor planning on Mesa's part. How did they plan to explain a bunch of military grade nuclear explosions to their people? Plus there are almost certainly stragglers who will get killed by their own nano. No way a bunch of super-smart people would buy that everyone they loved back home died of assorted natural causes.

Luckily for them, Henke has provided the perfect scapegoat, so they don't need to keep everything a secret! It was Manticore! And Manticore followed it up with murdering the friends left behind! Those monsters!

You're confusing the two different waves of nuclear devastation. the first wave was not "military grade" explosions. It was supposed to be stuff that had been scratch built by a group of rebellious seccies and the Audubon Ballroom.

The second was the "cleanup" explosions that involved the bombs that had been planted when the installations were built.

In any case, everyone who needs to be told is on Darius, where they can be conveniently kept in the dark.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

cthia wrote:Also, I'd think the Alignment would have wanted to keep people on Mesa to test the waters for conspiracy theories that come too close to the head (think Julia Roberts in the Pelican Brief) and for cats who have become too curious.

Probably. They already have one.

A lot of well-designed crimes have been discovered because the criminal couldn't keep cis hands off after the crime was committed. Detectives are trained to look at everything, and the person who can do an investigation without leaving ripples doesn't exist.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

cthia wrote:
As far as Mesa, the aftermath of a rushed Houdini is appalling to me. Sick. Even that bloodthirsty psychopathic Bardasano saw the measure of killing she'd have to do. Which also makes me wonder how the Alignment will keep news of what happened to everybody's family and loved ones away from the evacuees, and what will happen when that anger reverberates through the Alignment causing more Simoes. It is as if they didn't learn a damn thing. S'pose it's just too late in the game for them to change centuries old tactics.

Yeah, that was some poor planning on Mesa's part. How did they plan to explain a bunch of military grade nuclear explosions to their people? Plus there are almost certainly stragglers who will get killed by their own nano. No way a bunch of super-smart people would buy that everyone they loved back home died of assorted natural causes.

Luckily for them, Henke has provided the perfect scapegoat, so they don't need to keep everything a secret! It was Manticore! And Manticore followed it up with murdering the friends left behind! Those monsters!

Also, I'd think the Alignment would have wanted to keep people on Mesa to test the waters for conspiracy theories that come too close to the head (think Julia Roberts in the Pelican Brief) and for cats who have become too curious.

Probably. They already have one.

Honestly I don't think it was poor planning on MAlign's part. While it was horrific, it was an expedient way to get rid of most of the people who could provide information about aspects of the MAlign. The only reason they did it was because Henke arrived before they could get all their people off. The used the explosions after she arrived because she made it convenient for them especially with the reporter there to spin the story against the SEM.

Also you're talking about Locard's Exchange Principle. That's what investigators look for.

This has been a great conversation. Lots of info on DH and how he missed getting the killer nanites, while receiving the super spy upgrade. Special kudos to Cthis & Brigade XO for their analysis.

I agree that few outside of Givens & the Manties will ever find out that DH/Firebrand exists, never mind that he's alive and well. I can see where his unique skill set (spy & secret agent in the best tradition of James Bond), plus Clean Killer, can be an invaluable intelligence asset in the Talbot cluster or possibly in the SNL.

I have previously posted that because Cachat & Thandi were on Mesa when the Malign "attempted" the Houdini hocus-pocus, Cachat will throw a monkey wrench into the MAlign's version of how those nukes went off and who was responsible for them. What i said was that the 1st conversation between Cachat & Admiral Henke was likely "Hi Admiral, we're still alive down here, guess what we found out the Mesa Alignment's been up to...."

O'Hanrahan does have a local control because she was "told" not to be anywhere near a specific area, just before it went boom! I agree that DH wont show up on O'Hanrahan's radar because no-one in Malign intelligence knows he's around, just that one of their operatives got caught up in the melee when a neo-barb system blew up. If the revolutionaries didn't get him, the killer-nanites would have cleaned up that loose end; they thought. Now that the inner onion has climbed into a hole and pulled it in after them, its going to be much harder to manage information flow about whats going on in Mesa, never mind something as unimportant as a Verge operative.

I do have a suspicion that O'Hanrahan is going to be found out and possibly turned. As an Alpha line she's super-intelligent and committed to the generational plan; but what kind of moral conflict will it create in her? She's highly visible to everyone and has been on Mesa during Houdini so she's experiencing up-close & personal the human cost of just how ruthless the inner onion is, as they planned and executed the mass-killing of their former camouflage: Mesan slaves, ex-slaves, citizens & outer onion scapegoats along with their families. Thats only the recent, local casualties.

Cant wait for Uncompromising Honor to become available. I must confess that I found SoV somewhat anticlimatic, with the extra details of previous story arcs, and (I felt) relatively little advancement of the main arc. UH looks like its gonna fix that particular issue.

I admit it, I'm addicted!!