Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

stewart wrote:Summary comment --

I nominate GWEN Archer as King.
(background music from Wizard of Oz -- "If I Were King Of The Forest ..." )

-- Stewart

How far down the succession chain is Gwen? Is he even an "Honorable"?

Fox2! wrote:

stewart wrote:Summary comment --

I nominate GWEN Archer as King.
(background music from Wizard of Oz -- "If I Were King Of The Forest ..." )

-- Stewart

How far down the succession chain is Gwen? Is he even an "Honorable"?

Irrelevent under the conditions of this thread. ALL blood relatives, however distant are summarily declared dead.

I have no idea how far down the line one has to be to cease being honorable. My guess is that, yes, G.W.E.N. is there or a generation or two within the limit. After all, he is ... pretty far down the line.

Fox2! wrote:

stewart wrote:Summary comment --

I nominate GWEN Archer as King.
(background music from Wizard of Oz -- "If I Were King Of The Forest ..." )

-- Stewart

How far down the succession chain is Gwen? Is he even an "Honorable"?

If Manticore is following the UK style, only the immediate children of Barons, Viscounts and Earls get to be 'Honourable'. The title doesn't pass to grandchildren.

Again, if Manticore follows the UK style, any 'prince' or 'princess' title would only go as far as a monarch's grandchild - but it's often dropped when that grandchild isn't in the direct line of succession.

Gwen seems to be the son of a knight and in the line of succession to a barony - but he'd only be 'the Honourable' once his father inherits that barony. Just being in the line of succession doesn't cut it.

Bluesqueak wrote:

Fox2! wrote:
How far down the succession chain is Gwen? Is he even an "Honorable"?

If Manticore is following the UK style, only the immediate children of Barons, Viscounts and Earls get to be 'Honourable'. The title doesn't pass to grandchildren.

Again, if Manticore follows the UK style, any 'prince' or 'princess' title would only go as far as a monarch's grandchild - but it's often dropped when that grandchild isn't in the direct line of succession.

Gwen seems to be the son of a knight and in the line of succession to a barony - but he'd only be 'the Honourable' once his father inherits that barony. Just being in the line of succession doesn't cut it.

So, until his grandfather passes, GWEN will have to work for a living. Even if he is a commissioned officer.

Bluesqueak wrote:

Fox2! wrote:
How far down the succession chain is Gwen? Is he even an "Honorable"?

If Manticore is following the UK style, only the immediate children of Barons, Viscounts and Earls get to be 'Honourable'. The title doesn't pass to grandchildren.

Again, if Manticore follows the UK style, any 'prince' or 'princess' title would only go as far as a monarch's grandchild - but it's often dropped when that grandchild isn't in the direct line of succession.

Gwen seems to be the son of a knight and in the line of succession to a barony - but he'd only be 'the Honourable' once his father inherits that barony. Just being in the line of succession doesn't cut it.

Well thkns for learing that up

Helga Boltitz beware ...

cthia wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if Honor hadn't always been Nimitz' pet, since the day they first bonded.

What an interesting thought! Wouldn't many treecats wonder a bit about the strange tastes of a 'cat who would adopt a mind-blind "two legs" as a pet, much as many humans think other humans' tastes in pets are strange?

Maybe be a bit concerned about that 'cats' mental stability? Hmmm

Yes, I know that it didn't happen that way. I've read the story of the first adoption. Just wondering "what if ..."

Invariably, a somewhat large portion of the introspection that I wanted to impart in this thread is that the Alignment has the technology to effect an Eridani strike with impressive ease and execution on an unprecedented and unimaginable scale. Well, I can imagine it.

If Manticore's own stealth technology enabled them to park probes close enough to the observation decks to view what was being served in the galleys, then certainly the Alignment's tech is at least a cut above. How close can the MA park a few Lenny Dets to the planet at optimum distance and vector to disable power stations, grids and other key military targets on the planet that will serve to cripple it in lieu of killing it? Communications planet-wide destroyed, moments before a supporting attack. And certainly, Mount Royal could be considered a military target.

It almost seems criminal for the Alignment not to usher in a new age of EEV. The technology and capability is in their hands as with no other navy. Because they have such unrivaled supporting technology, means that they could execute an EEV strike HUMANELY. They could rewrite the galaxy's perception of the concept.

"Because we can get in so closely—for all intents and purposes— to your planet unseen and lay doggo with our EEV strike computers running at maximum capacity, we can pinpoint your critical planetary arteries and sever them with ease. Our computers, meticulously and without error, calculate the reaction times of your ships in the vicinity of each launch. Resistance is futile."

When the galaxy hears the news, they'd be appalled, then stunned that all of their friends and loved ones are still alive. This was a humane strike, the act of a humane adversary. But then...

A humane EEV strike of the MAlign kind is akin to the period where America was the only navy that possessed atomic weaponry. Except that it really isn't like the moment in time where America was the only Superpower with the A-bomb in its arsenal. Everyone in the Honorverse has the ability to effect an EE strike. The notion would only guarantee mutually assured destruction if that cat was ever let out of the bag, and it would represent inhumane killing of civilian targets.

That was yesterday's reality before the MA developed technology that can turn the entire concept on its head and thrust the notion right back to the period where only America and America alone wielded the A-bomb. Who is to say that the galaxy would have a right to charge the MA with an inhumane act? They didn't kill any civilians with the strike. No more than can customarily be considered collateral damage. They were able to target key—fairly civilian free— zones considered as military targets. Why shouldn't they be able to do it? They've changed the game. Should they be bound by an Edict that is centuries behind their capability?

Should America have sat on the A-bomb? The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a humane act as well, considering the technology and capability. *They could have destroyed more populated cities—but chose their designations where new technology suddenly made into accessible military targets.

Was America inhumane? Why don't they have generations of races on the planet coming together to hate them and swear vengeance? As we say would happen in Honor's World.


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Now I'd like to pick at a scab that has been bothering me...

wiki informant wrote:In the United States, a designated survivor (or designated successor) is an individual in the presidential line of succession, usually a member of the United States Cabinet, who is arranged to be at a physically distant, secure, and undisclosed location when the President and the country's other top leaders (e.g., Vice President and Cabinet members) are gathered at a single location, such as during State of the Union addresses and presidential inaugurations. This is intended to guarantee continuity of government in the event of a catastrophic occurrence that kills the President and many officials in the presidential line of succession. If such an event occurred, killing both the President and Vice President, the surviving official highest in the line, possibly the designated survivor, would become the Acting President of the United States under the Presidential Succession Act.

Mirrored in the thoughts of several posters...

crewdude48 wrote:snip

Furthermore, considering that they have been at war, or preparing for war, for as long as they have been, they most likely fallow something similar to the "designated survivor" protocols that the US government fallows.

snip

Loren Pechtel wrote:May I point out the standard tactic of the designated survivor? You always make sure that somebody in the line of succession is far away from any such event.

(Yes, there is a TV show on with this as a name. The show is named after the concept, I'm not basing this on the show. In fact, the show got it wrong--he shouldn't have been in Washington, period.)

HB of CJ wrote:Interesting topic. First off, the ground rules strongly suggest such strikes could not happen. The key words here are could not.

Logic might suggest that the House of Winston would take precautions against all the family being wiped out. Sound judgment indeed.

Deep secure bolt holes? Gravity chutes for quick drops? Lead time only half a minute? Some family would survive. Short and long term.

I wonder if we might see something of this in the coming book? Perhaps on a regional or local scale? One planet perhaps? Yikes!

Theemile wrote:In real experience, they would gave had multiple bunkers and multiple command teams. Look at 9/11 and Dick Chaney as an example. He never was physically near POTUS for weeks afterward to have a solid line of succession in case of a 2nd attack.

That plot point was one of the dumbest points in a movie full of them....

How much time would a MAlign sneak attack give them? Absolutely none. They can't live in bunkers. At what point does new technology invalidate and outdate your "designated survivor" protocols?

Let's take the US for example. What do you think its designated survivor protocol is?

Let's say that MAlign technology is suddenly made available to countries of the Earth to effect an EEV strike. Would present plans have to be amended? In the case of the Manticorans would it be allowed for everyone in the line of succession to be on the same planet?

Sometimes when you think you are separating the chickens from the eggs, new technologies automatically place them all in one basket again. What if you are not aware that your chickens and eggs, for all intents and purposes, are still in one basket? I imagine the bombs dropped on the cities of Japan also had the same effect of making the Japanese and every other country of the planet at large rethink their own designated survivor protocols.


My niece was a bit easy on me with the "I told you so" but I did get it. She was right when she suggested that I include multiple targets separated across the planet to include everyone that Anisimovna could herd onto the planet. I'll reiterate, as I told my lovely niece after the well meaning suggestion that I was only concerned with post disaster mechanics. She was adamant about removing the stumbling blocks of the discussion and making the notion more palatable. My apologies, princess.

It certainly would have been just as easy to effect multiple strikes. Perhaps this is what Anismovna meant by an intergalactic coordination of forces defeating the KISS principle mentioned in her Bestseller, post strike. Somehow acquired. Shrugs.

It is sobering when I consider the ramifications of a Malign technology at the helm of a Malign mind. I can see the similarity of the Lenny Dees to TWTSNBN on its maiden voyage—devastating. O, that ship has already sailed. My badd. Let's rephrase that as their maiden voyage after their first trial run.

If the Alignment were to choose to throw caution, concern and humanity to the wind and utilize the Lenny Dees in their most destructive way, Manticore would be toast, or done inhumanely - orbital debris.


* Wiki informant...

Choice of targets
In April 1945, Marshall asked Groves to nominate specific targets for bombing for final approval by himself and Stimson. Groves formed a Target Committee, chaired by himself, that included Farrell, Major John A. Derry, Colonel William P. Fisher, Joyce C. Stearns and David M. Dennison from the USAAF; and scientists John von Neumann, Robert R. Wilson and William Penney from the Manhattan Project. The Target Committee met in Washington on April 27; at Los Alamos on May 10, where it was able to talk to the scientists and technicians there; and finally in Washington on May 28, where it was briefed by Tibbets and Commander Frederick Ashworth from Project Alberta, and the Manhattan Project's scientific advisor, Richard C. Tolman.

The Target Committee nominated five targets: Kokura, the site of one of Japan's largest munitions plants; Hiroshima, an embarkation port and industrial center that was the site of a major military headquarters; Yokohama, an urban center for aircraft manufacture, machine tools, docks, electrical equipment and oil refineries; Niigata, a port with industrial facilities including steel and aluminum plants and an oil refinery; and Kyoto, a major industrial center. The target selection was subject to the following criteria:

⦁ The target was larger than 3 mi (4.8 km) in diameter and was an important target in a large urban area.
⦁ The blast would create effective damage.
⦁ The target was unlikely to be attacked by August 1945.

These cities were largely untouched during the nightly bombing raids and the Army Air Forces agreed to leave them off the target list so accurate assessment of the weapon could be made. Hiroshima was described as "an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focusing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target."

The Target Committee stated that "It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance. Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released. Kyoto had the advantage of being an important center for military industry, as well an intellectual center and hence a population better able to appreciate the significance of the weapon. The Emperor's palace in Tokyo has a greater fame than any other target but is of least strategic value."

Edwin O. Reischauer, a Japan expert for the U.S. Army Intelligence Service, was incorrectly said to have prevented the bombing of Kyoto. In his autobiography, Reischauer specifically refuted this claim:
... the only person deserving credit for saving Kyoto from destruction is Henry L. Stimson, the Secretary of War at the time, who had known and admired Kyoto ever since his honeymoon there several decades earlier.

On May 30, Stimson asked Groves to remove Kyoto from the target list due to its historical, religious and cultural significance, but Groves pointed to its military and industrial significance. Stimson then approached President Harry S. Truman about the matter. Truman agreed with Stimson, and Kyoto was temporarily removed from the target list.Groves attempted to restore Kyoto to the target list in July, but Stimson remained adamant. On July 25, Nagasaki was put on the target list in place of Kyoto.[79] Orders for the attack were issued to General Carl Spaatz on July 25 under the signature of General Thomas T. Handy, the acting Chief of Staff, since Marshall was at the Potsdam Conference with Truman. That day, Truman noted in his diary that:

This weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop that terrible bomb on the old capital [Kyoto] or the new [Tokyo]. He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one.

.

robert132 wrote:

cthia wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if Honor hadn't always been Nimitz' pet, since the day they first bonded.

What an interesting thought! Wouldn't many treecats wonder a bit about the strange tastes of a 'cat who would adopt a mind-blind "two legs" as a pet, much as many humans think other humans' tastes in pets are strange?

Maybe be a bit concerned about that 'cats' mental stability? Hmmm

Yes, I know that it didn't happen that way. I've read the story of the first adoption. Just wondering "what if ..."

Some humans taste in pets are strange. And downright insane. Why would anyone want a 20 foot 300 lb python as a pet? Then leave their 2-yr-old son alone to play with it while they busy themselves remodeling? Especially after it had already swallowed their Boston terrier a couple of months prior.

"You couldn't have known," says the news reporter.

Bullshit! It had already swallowed their dog. Do you seriously think the python can and will differentiate between the dog and the baby. They are both food! And the python is not your loyal pet!!! http://www.theonion.com/video/boys-trag ... amil-17024

And the bereaved parents are still talking about the snake as if it were a son. "It's been hard on all of us and the snake. Jaws is like a son to us. He misses Zach very much. You can see it in his eyes."

Bullshit! It's a fucking snake. "You knew I was a snake when you brought me into your home, idiot!"

Sure, the snake misses Zach like I miss that juicy turkey I cooked a couple months back.

And now they are asking people to help by donating to help purchase another, "therapeutic" snake for Zach's sister Ann. Has the entire phucking world gone mad?

In a separate incident, parents kept an 8 ft python as a pet and starved it for a month. Then left it relatively easy access to their 2-yr-old daughter. Unbelievable!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ghter.html

Yes, humans have strange, insane and irresponsible tastes in pets, that really are NOT pets.

cthia wrote:Some humans taste in pets are strange. And downright insane. Why would anyone want a 20 foot 300 lb python as a pet? Then leave their 2-yr-old son alone to play with it while they busy themselves remodeling? Especially after it had already swallowed their Boston terrier a couple of months prior.

"You couldn't have known," says the news reporter.

Bullshit! It had already swallowed their dog. Do you seriously think the python can and will differentiate between the dog and the baby. They are both food! And the python is not your loyal pet!!! http://www.theonion.com/video/boys-trag ... amil-17024

And the bereaved parents are still talking about the snake as if it were a son. "It's been hard on all of us and the snake. Jaws is like a son to us. He misses Zach very much. You can see it in his eyes."

Bullshit! It's a fucking snake. "You knew I was a snake when you brought me into your home, idiot!"

Sure, the snake misses Zach like I miss that juicy turkey I cooked a couple months back.

And now they are asking people to help by donating to help purchase another, "therapeutic" snake for Zach's sister Ann. Has the entire phucking world gone mad?

In a separate incident, parents kept an 8 ft python as a pet and starved it for a month. Then left it relatively easy access to their 2-yr-old daughter. Unbelievable!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ghter.html

Yes, humans have strange, insane and irresponsible tastes in pets, that really are NOT pets.

A former co-worker of mine had about a score of rental houses in the "wrong" section of town, and always had some interesting stories about his renters and the stupid/wacky/criminal things they did.

One cold winter day, he received a phone call from the fire department and ran out of the office. It seems one of his tenants had a 6 foot crocodile in the master bedroom as a pet; to keep it warm in that cold rust belt winter, the renters had run extention cords from every outlet in the house to run dozens of heaters in the room. They were taxing every electrical circuit in the entire house to keep this massive reptile comfy in the drafty, uninsulated 120 year old POS they were renting. Something finally gave and the whole pile went up in flames.

Fortunately, no one was hurt, but they cried and cried about the Croc the firefighters refused to even attempt to save...

It was only one of 4 houses he lost while I worked with him - 2 had been stripped by metal thieves when he wasn't paying attention, and the fourth burnt down when a deep fried frozen turkey launched out of a fryer and through the ceiling in an enclosed porch with a bedroom above it.

cthia wrote:If Manticore's own stealth technology enabled them to park probes close enough to the observation decks to view what was being served in the galleys, then certainly the Alignment's tech is at least a cut above. How close can the MA park a few Lenny Dets to the planet at optimum distance ...

It takes less stealth technology to hide a spider drive than it does to hide an impeller wedge. MAlign stealth is very good, but I question whether it is "a cut above" Manticoran -- or Havenite, for that matter.