New ship idea

Weird Harold wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:So you're adding larger launchers, larger feed tubes, cofferdaming around each launcher (to direct blow-out should a Mk16 reactor get hit or fail in the tube), redesigned magazine,...

What makes you think that a Mk16G is larger than a Havenite cruiser-weight ERM? I suspect that Havenite Cruiser-weight missiles are even bigger than a Sag-B's Mk 13 ERMs.

One of Manticore's advantages has always been their ability to miniaturize things. Replacement of launchers on a 1:1 basis would leave ample room for cofferdams and other associated changes.

A Mars-B adaptation would have fewer missiles/salvo but would have longer range and bigger warheads than a Sag-B.

On reflection and comparing the stats, I was a bit optimistic in thinking a Mars-B could match a Sag-C without major modifications; it simply doesn't have the missile tubes for a simple 1:1 replacement to reach Sag-C range.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:[<snip>
One thing I find a bit hard to believe is how fast some people expect Haven to produce Manti-capable designs. Haven doesn't use exactly the same construction methods as Manticore; and they will need to figure out a viable design of mixed tech before they go into any sort of volume production. The fact that the political decision was to build the SD hulls in Havenite yards, then outfit them with electronics/missiles from elsewhere has already been made, doesn't mean implementing that decision is on-going already.

<snip>

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Theemile,

was that just to post your sig?

<snip>

Rob

Jonathan_S wrote:So you're adding larger launchers, larger feed tubes, cofferdaming around each launcher (to direct blow-out should a Mk16 reactor get hit or fail in the tube), redesigned magazine, more CM tubes, larger CM tubes/launchers.

All those larger feed tubes and bigger launcher (plus their new armor cofferdam) require lots of rearangements of other internals to make bigger openings, displacing control runs, environmental ducts, restricting passageways, shrinking compartments, etc, etc.

Then you probably want more (and extended range optimized) fire control links, new compensator (possibly new nodes; because the Mars class was designed in hopes of a ~8-10% improved compensators while the latest Mantie ones we've seen are around ~45-50% improved). Also, to get the latest Mantie FTL com transmitters might require drive node modifications/replacements.

And that's just to get their offense and hard kill defenses up near Mantie standards. If you want soft kill and recon brought up that's changes to ECM hardware, and docking bays capable of launching (and servicing) ghost rider recon drones and improved tethered decoys. That's a heck of a lot of changes even though the life support, fusion reactors, crew berthing/living areas didn't require upgrades.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:[<snip>
One thing I find a bit hard to believe is how fast some people expect Haven to produce Manti-capable designs. Haven doesn't use exactly the same construction methods as Manticore; and they will need to figure out a viable design of mixed tech before they go into any sort of volume production. The fact that the political decision was to build the SD hulls in Havenite yards, then outfit them with electronics/missiles from elsewhere has already been made, doesn't mean implementing that decision is on-going already.

<snip>

Rob

Theemile wrote: Total agreement here. It took 3-4 months to modify existing, completed Andy podlayers to fire Manty capacitor MDM pods. It added more than 6-8 months to add in KH II and Fusion pod modifications to Adlers still under construction, while requiring a doubling in manpower to achieve. And the Andies have a higher education and technology base.

Yeah, I'd be suprised if a Havenite KHII Trememaire (sp) SD class appeared in less than 12 months than this point in the storyline. (The Trememaire class was the 2nd gen Havenite Podlayer design laid down in the 1st wave's (Sovereign of Space class) slips.

It's not just going to be a quick software update and an aftermarket bolt-on - it's the integration of very complex systems that were not designed to talk to one another or to fit together. And even when they were going into Manty ships that they were designed for - it took 3-6 months to install them.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:What makes you think that a Mk16G is larger than a Havenite cruiser-weight ERM? I suspect that Havenite Cruiser-weight missiles are even bigger than a Sag-B's Mk 13 ERMs.

One of Manticore's advantages has always been their ability to miniaturize things. Replacement of launchers on a 1:1 basis would leave ample room for cofferdams and other associated changes.

A Mars-B adaptation would have fewer missiles/salvo but would have longer range and bigger warheads than a Sag-B.

On reflection and comparing the stats, I was a bit optimistic in thinking a Mars-B could match a Sag-C without major modifications; it simply doesn't have the missile tubes for a simple 1:1 replacement to reach Sag-C range.

I think you are exactly right about the Havenite missiles-- at least, before they got the data from Erewhon and captured samples in Thunderbolt. They could be a bit better now, though.

They could use the Mars sized hull for a Havenite version of the Sag-B, though, once they got access to BuShips design people. I keep wanting to see this, with about 16 tubes (less than the Bravos, but hey, Haven is still catching up), and double salvos.

Also, a minor nit: the ERM was the Mk-14; the Mk-13 was the pre-war cruiser missile.

Rob

Weird Harold wrote:What makes you think that a Mk16G is larger than a Havenite cruiser-weight ERM? I suspect that Havenite Cruiser-weight missiles are even bigger than a Sag-B's Mk 13 ERMs.

One of Manticore's advantages has always been their ability to miniaturize things. Replacement of launchers on a 1:1 basis would leave ample room for cofferdams and other associated changes.

A Mars-B adaptation would have fewer missiles/salvo but would have longer range and bigger warheads than a Sag-B.

On reflection and comparing the stats, I was a bit optimistic in thinking a Mars-B could match a Sag-C without major modifications; it simply doesn't have the missile tubes for a simple 1:1 replacement to reach Sag-C range.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
I think you are exactly right about the Havenite missiles-- at least, before they got the data from Erewhon and captured samples in Thunderbolt. They could be a bit better now, though.

They could use the Mars sized hull for a Havenite version of the Sag-B, though, once they got access to BuShips design people. I keep wanting to see this, with about 16 tubes (less than the Bravos, but hey, Haven is still catching up), and double salvos.

Also, a minor nit: the ERM was the Mk-14; the Mk-13 was the pre-war cruiser missile.

Rob

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think they had ERMs before the potential tech transfers from Erewhon. And of course the Mars-B designs were laid down and constructed well before that, so they'd be built around SDM tubes anyway.

(Yes, missile ranges had crept up during the 1st war, but as far as I can tell that was due to marginally better accel at the same endurance. There seemed to be a major step change between SDM missiles that could do 60/180 seconds at full/half power and ERMs which can do at least 75/225 seconds)

We know that the Mantie Mk14 ERMs were bigger than their previous cruiser weight SDMs (becuase there's text-ev that anything older than a Sag-B had tubes that were too small to handle the ERM birds), and there's no indication that Haven's SDMs had to be significantly larger than Mantie capacitor powered SDMs; that doesn't seem to have cropped up until they were trying to crack MDMs (which are way more complicated). So I really doubt you could design a capable ERM design that could fit into an unmodified Mars-B's tubes.

Ashes of Victory, Chapter 4 wrote:"It wouldn't be possible for us," McQueen agreed. "The Manties, however, have rather persistently done things we've been unable to duplicate. Even our pods are less sophisticated than theirs. We make up the differential by using larger pods, more missiles, and bigger missiles, because we can't match the degree of miniaturization they can. I see no reason to assume that the same doesn't hold true for their LACs."

Vince wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:We know that the Mantie Mk14 ERMs were bigger than their previous cruiser weight SDMs (becuase there's text-ev that anything older than a Sag-B had tubes that were too small to handle the ERM birds), and there's no indication that Haven's SDMs had to be significantly larger than Mantie capacitor powered SDMs; that doesn't seem to have cropped up until they were trying to crack MDMs (which are way more complicated). So I really doubt you could design a capable ERM design that could fit into an unmodified Mars-B's tubes.

Haven's missiles, even the single drive ones, were bigger than Manticore's.

Ashes of Victory, Chapter 4 wrote:"It wouldn't be possible for us," McQueen agreed. "The Manties, however, have rather persistently done things we've been unable to duplicate. Even our pods are less sophisticated than theirs. We make up the differential by using larger pods, more missiles, and bigger missiles, because we can't match the degree of miniaturization they can. I see no reason to assume that the same doesn't hold true for their LACs."

Italics are the author's, boldface text is my emphasis.

Ashes of Victory represents the first time MDMs were used in significant numbers by the RMN. The only previous use was at the Second Battle of Hancock in Echoes of Honor, where HMS Minotaur made history as the first (and only, at that time) RMN ship equipped with the brand new MDMs to fire them in combat.

Jonathan_S wrote:Ok, their SDMs were biggern than the Manties - but are they enough bigger that their CAs could take a Mk14 ERM derviative without needing enlarged magazines, feed tubes, and launchers? (And your guess is probably as good as mine)