new/old dead horse, futher beating requested

Cheopis wrote:Remember that the greatest weapon in war is information. If you have an old decrepit SL SD in orbit around your planet, and there isn't clear intelligence to indicate that it's unable to fight, any raider or pirate is going to have to give consideration that it might be able to fight.---Snip----

To create a real world scenario, if you're thinking about breaking into two different houses, and you know the owners of one house have an old dog, and the owners of the other have no dog, you will probably try to break into the house with no dog if all other things are mostly equal.

As a raider, you have to think, is that SD in orbit able to wake up and bite you on the ass if you get too close, or is it toothless and nearly dead? Are you going to risk your ship(s) and crew to find out, or pick an easier target?

Sollie SD's won't have much utility against piracy outside the hyper limit because they are too slow, but raiders going after orbital or even planetary infrastructure in post-SL chaos will have to think twice if there's a SD in orbit.

Bad comparison, there is likely to be better defenses if there is no SD. Would you risk the possibly old toothless dog or the pack of puppies? You can man a squadron of DDs and a LAC wing(s?) for the crew of one SD, those ships can be in several places at once, protecting much more than the near orbitals. Even an old style LAC flushing a box launcher can ruin a raiders day.

Castenea wrote:

Cheopis wrote:Remember that the greatest weapon in war is information. If you have an old decrepit SL SD in orbit around your planet, and there isn't clear intelligence to indicate that it's unable to fight, any raider or pirate is going to have to give consideration that it might be able to fight.---Snip----

To create a real world scenario, if you're thinking about breaking into two different houses, and you know the owners of one house have an old dog, and the owners of the other have no dog, you will probably try to break into the house with no dog if all other things are mostly equal.

As a raider, you have to think, is that SD in orbit able to wake up and bite you on the ass if you get too close, or is it toothless and nearly dead? Are you going to risk your ship(s) and crew to find out, or pick an easier target?

Sollie SD's won't have much utility against piracy outside the hyper limit because they are too slow, but raiders going after orbital or even planetary infrastructure in post-SL chaos will have to think twice if there's a SD in orbit.

Bad comparison, there is likely to be better defenses if there is no SD. Would you risk the possibly old toothless dog or the pack of puppies? You can man a squadron of DDs and a LAC wing(s?) for the crew of one SD, those ships can be in several places at once, protecting much more than the near orbitals. Even an old style LAC flushing a box launcher can ruin a raiders day.

Against piracy, you are correct. Against raiders, you are dead wrong.

SD's are almost always useless against piracy except in the most amazingly lucky/unlucky scenarios. Pirates don't like risk. They aren't going to hit orbital infrastructure within a hyper limit except in very, VERY rare cases.

To use my example, pirates will never enter your yard. They will carjack you in the driveway, and the old dog will never be of any potential use.

However raiders, who are actually intending to either conquer or steal from the orbitals or planet itself, will by necessity have to enter the hyper limit to acquire goods from orbitals or planetary surfaces. That's when the SD in orbit around your planet becomes useful as a defensive ploy. Is it active, or is it useless?

That raider might simply say "hell no" and go to the next verge world and pass yours by if there's an SD in orbit.

You might say "But there hasn't been any mention of raiders in the Honorverse." True, as far as I am aware, but when the Solarian League falls, there are going to be a whole lot of loose military ships and a whole lot of power vacuum. There will be wars between neighboring systems over time. There will be rogue elements of the Frontier and Battle Fleets that do not align with core worlds to supply their needs.

So when you consider the usefulness of the SD in orbit, remember that pirates don't care what's in orbit and never will. They rarely enter the hyper limit. Planetary / orbital raiders will care a GREAT deal. They can only get what they want if they enter the hyper limit, and you can put that crappy old SD right on top of your most valuable stuff.

I hope that's clearer.

Cheopis wrote:You might say "But there hasn't been any mention of raiders in the Honorverse." True, as far as I am aware, but when the Solarian League falls, there are going to be a whole lot of loose military ships and a whole lot of power vacuum. There will be wars between neighboring systems over time. There will be rogue elements of the Frontier and Battle Fleets that do not align with core worlds to supply their needs.

So when you consider the usefulness of the SD in orbit, remember that pirates don't care what's in orbit and never will. They rarely enter the hyper limit. Planetary / orbital raiders will care a GREAT deal. They can only get what they want if they enter the hyper limit, and you can put that crappy old SD right on top of your most valuable stuff.

I hope that's clearer.

Pirates have always gained the most money from long shore raids, not attacking ships. In the Honorverse this means attacking things like asteroid mining nodes, remote outposts, ect.. These will not always be inside the hyperlimit, and will seldom have a great deal of high value for the system. Think though about what your proposed burgler would do if given the chance to clean out a convenience store at his leisure.

I'm kind of wondering if the idea of (basically) using old SDs as orbital defense would just make a bad situation worse.

OK, so we have this massive ex-warship with a skeleton crew and arguably dubious maintenance/support in orbit. Why do I say dubious for that last? VERGE world, usually with limited means to start with.

Suggesting to me that such a monstrosity may be ALL that a lot of worlds can afford, even if the damn thing is a gift. Forget getting a few LACs or any orbital hardware or even hiring a security / pirate-hunter ship when things get tough, because a big chunk of your budget and manpower will be sucked up just keeping this thing in a stable orbit.

If I was a particularly clever and ambitious pirate leader, rather than shying away from this thing, I might consider other possibilities. Skeleton crew (even if well-trained and properly looked after) means very limited capabilities and (definitely) limited maintenance.

So our SD is probably an extremely easy target if the attacker (a) has a clue, and (b) can get reasonable surprise. Get a boarding /sabotage party on board either via one of the supply shuttles or via orbital insertion. Destroy / cripple the brute outright, or even capture it. The crew might disable the systems before the pirates grab control, but it is probably that world's sole defense.

From the pirate point of view, this SD is something extra to loot. The systems are not state-of-the-art, but I am sure there would be stuff there a pirate group would happily pry off and make good use of, or just haul away in hopes of sale to other parties. A capital ship graser or two, for example?

7thsealord wrote:I'm kind of wondering if the idea of (basically) using old SDs as orbital defense would just make a bad situation worse.

OK, so we have this massive ex-warship with a skeleton crew and arguably dubious maintenance/support in orbit. Why do I say dubious for that last? VERGE world, usually with limited means to start with.

Suggesting to me that such a monstrosity may be ALL that a lot of worlds can afford, even if the damn thing is a gift. Forget getting a few LACs or any orbital hardware or even hiring a security / pirate-hunter ship when things get tough, because a big chunk of your budget and manpower will be sucked up just keeping this thing in a stable orbit.

If I was a particularly clever and ambitious pirate leader, rather than shying away from this thing, I might consider other possibilities. Skeleton crew (even if well-trained and properly looked after) means very limited capabilities and (definitely) limited maintenance.

So our SD is probably an extremely easy target if the attacker (a) has a clue, and (b) can get reasonable surprise. Get a boarding /sabotage party on board either via one of the supply shuttles or via orbital insertion. Destroy / cripple the brute outright, or even capture it. The crew might disable the systems before the pirates grab control, but it is probably that world's sole defense.

From the pirate point of view, this SD is something extra to loot. The systems are not state-of-the-art, but I am sure there would be stuff there a pirate group would happily pry off and make good use of, or just haul away in hopes of sale to other parties. A capital ship graser or two, for example?

You're making several assumptions; that they will all have a skeleton crew and be poorly maintained. since the basic idea is to have them be used as training aids, this means they will have more than a skeleton crew and will be receiving proper maintenance. Why would they have a skeleton crew on an SD anyways when its duty is to provide security for a planet/system? That seems more than a little counter-productive unless you're running a big shell game and bluffing like crazy. And even then if you go long enough, bluffs will be called. If the ships are being used as has been suggested, as training ships, they'd have most of the crew they need. They might have an inexperienced crew, but a skeleton crew? Doubttful unless the ship is just being moved from one system to another.

Also, any raiders aren't going to have state of the art ships The only systems out there with ships better than the SLN ships are the GA ships and the IAN and some of the MAlign warships (but they won't do any system raiding until they are ready to come out in the open). The raiders ships will be very very likely no better than the SLN so there goes any advantage there and SLN SDs can throw bigger missile salvos than thing smaller than them. Aside from the GA/IAN ships.

Zakharra wrote:

7thsealord wrote:I'm kind of wondering if the idea of (basically) using old SDs as orbital defense would just make a bad situation worse.

OK, so we have this massive ex-warship with a skeleton crew and arguably dubious maintenance/support in orbit. Why do I say dubious for that last? VERGE world, usually with limited means to start with.

Suggesting to me that such a monstrosity may be ALL that a lot of worlds can afford, even if the damn thing is a gift. Forget getting a few LACs or any orbital hardware or even hiring a security / pirate-hunter ship when things get tough, because a big chunk of your budget and manpower will be sucked up just keeping this thing in a stable orbit.

If I was a particularly clever and ambitious pirate leader, rather than shying away from this thing, I might consider other possibilities. Skeleton crew (even if well-trained and properly looked after) means very limited capabilities and (definitely) limited maintenance.

So our SD is probably an extremely easy target if the attacker (a) has a clue, and (b) can get reasonable surprise. Get a boarding /sabotage party on board either via one of the supply shuttles or via orbital insertion. Destroy / cripple the brute outright, or even capture it. The crew might disable the systems before the pirates grab control, but it is probably that world's sole defense.

From the pirate point of view, this SD is something extra to loot. The systems are not state-of-the-art, but I am sure there would be stuff there a pirate group would happily pry off and make good use of, or just haul away in hopes of sale to other parties. A capital ship graser or two, for example?

You're making several assumptions; that they will all have a skeleton crew and be poorly maintained. since the basic idea is to have them be used as training aids, this means they will have more than a skeleton crew and will be receiving proper maintenance. Why would they have a skeleton crew on an SD anyways when its duty is to provide security for a planet/system? That seems more than a little counter-productive unless you're running a big shell game and bluffing like crazy. And even then if you go long enough, bluffs will be called. If the ships are being used as has been suggested, as training ships, they'd have most of the crew they need. They might have an inexperienced crew, but a skeleton crew? Doubttful unless the ship is just being moved from one system to another.

Also, any raiders aren't going to have state of the art ships The only systems out there with ships better than the SLN ships are the GA ships and the IAN and some of the MAlign warships (but they won't do any system raiding until they are ready to come out in the open). The raiders ships will be very very likely no better than the SLN so there goes any advantage there and SLN SDs can throw bigger missile salvos than thing smaller than them. Aside from the GA/IAN ships.

Sollie SDs just as well have signs declaring "white elephant sale" hanging from the wedge as far as any defensive purposes are concerned. They are too slow to catch raiders or pirates. And given that, the bluff value goes to zero. All you have to do is locate the thing and stay outside its envelop of fire. Far better to acquire BCs and smaller that are not bluffing if you need a system defense force.

Don

n7axw wrote: All you have to do is locate the thing and stay outside its envelop of fire. Far better to acquire BCs and smaller that are not bluffing if you need a system defense force.

Sure. Stay a few million km away from it and it can't really do a lot (unless it has upgraded missiles...). However that is exactly the mission of the damn thing. Keep people away from it. Which, since it happens to be parked next to your planet, also means you stay away from the planet.

7thsealord wrote:If I was a particularly clever and ambitious pirate leader, rather than shying away from this thing, I might consider other possibilities. Skeleton crew (even if well-trained and properly looked after) means very limited capabilities and (definitely) limited maintenance.

So our SD is probably an extremely easy target if the attacker (a) has a clue, and (b) can get reasonable surprise. Get a boarding /sabotage party on board either via one of the supply shuttles or via orbital insertion. Destroy / cripple the brute outright, or even capture it. The crew might disable the systems before the pirates grab control, but it is probably that world's sole defense.

It's like a plan that begins with "First, we kidnap the president of the US, then..." I think that step one might be a tiny bit trickier that you think.

kzt wrote:

7thsealord wrote:If I was a particularly clever and ambitious pirate leader, rather than shying away from this thing, I might consider other possibilities. Skeleton crew (even if well-trained and properly looked after) means very limited capabilities and (definitely) limited maintenance.

So our SD is probably an extremely easy target if the attacker (a) has a clue, and (b) can get reasonable surprise. Get a boarding /sabotage party on board either via one of the supply shuttles or via orbital insertion. Destroy / cripple the brute outright, or even capture it. The crew might disable the systems before the pirates grab control, but it is probably that world's sole defense.

It's like a plan that begins with "First, we kidnap the president of the US, then..." I think that step one might be a tiny bit trickier that you think.

If for some reason the ship is lightly manned, his idea might be a viable option, KZT.

However, even if the thing is being used as a gimmick defense, it's *still* got room for several thousand people to live and work in it. I imagine that at the very least it's going to be populated by a substantial population of people. If there's anything on that ship that any space traveling people should be able to do, it's maintain life support on the ship, even if they have to gut the existing life support systems and put in systems they can service themselves.

That's a lot of office space, and it's got armor, even if it can't fight at all. At the absolute least, the ship could be a place for orbital workers to live while they improve the planet's orbital infrastructure.

Even if they had no interest in trying to pretend that can use the thing in a fight, A lot of Verge worlds would happily take a SD like that, gut the ship of most or all of it's weapons, and use it as the kernel of a new space station.

Swords -> plowshares

kzt wrote:

n7axw wrote: All you have to do is locate the thing and stay outside its envelop of fire. Far better to acquire BCs and smaller that are not bluffing if you need a system defense force.

Sure. Stay a few million km away from it and it can't really do a lot (unless it has upgraded missiles...). However that is exactly the mission of the damn thing. Keep people away from it. Which, since it happens to be parked next to your planet, also means you stay away from the planet.

A planetary system is a big place. Simply be where it is not. Or a pair of cruisers could come on, split up and let one play tag while the other gets down to business.

Don