Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army

SWM wrote:[quote="hanuman"
Excuse me, SWM, but you are plain wrong. Yes, there is no textev to that specific effect, but there IS textev that the Star Kingdom was expanding her intel-gathering operations in the Talbott Sector as quickly as possible - I cannot give you chapter and page, but it was mentioned in a meeting between Elizabeth and her closest advisors in, I think, 'Shadow of Saganami'. There is plenty of precedent in history that one of the most basic operational tactics wrt intel-gathering is for intelligence agents to go undercover as trade attaches. We do not NEED textev to assume that Manticore would have established trade offices throughout the Talbott Sector to represent her interests and those of her merchant marine.

I stand by my statement--there is no indication that Manticore set up embassies among the Protectorates.

First of all, trade offices are not embassies. Second of all, there are no Protectorates in the Talbott Sector. The Protectorates are quite some distance away from Talbott. Increasing intelligence-gathering in the area around the Talbott Cluster does not mean that Manticore has set up embassies in the Protectorates.[/quote]

An embassy is not necessarily a full diplomatic office, with a credentialed ambassador at its head. It can be anything from a trade office to a diplomatic consulate to a temporary envoy, as long as its chief officer is a credentialed representative of a foreign government.

hanuman wrote:An embassy is not necessarily a full diplomatic office, with a credentialed ambassador at its head. It can be anything from a trade office to a diplomatic consulate to a temporary envoy, as long as its chief officer is a credentialed representative of a foreign government.

I would disagree--a trade office is not an embassy. But it doesn't really matter. Since there appears to be no embassy of any kind, nor even a trade office, on Saltash or Meyers, which are both major systems and far closer to Talbott than the Protectorates, why should we think that Manticore has established embassies in the Protectorates? I repeat, there is no indication that they have done so.

Manticore wouldn't have embassies, trade missions or anything of the sort in OFS sphere of operations, for the simple reason that they wouldn't be allowed to have them. Embassies are set up between sovereign states that agree to have them. One word in the ear of the 'completely independent' local government and they are regretfully unable to open diplomatic relations with the Star Kingdom at this time. Their economies are completely controlled by one or more Solarian transtellars, so there won't be any trade with Manticore and therefore no trade missions or attaches.

Hi guys,

The two of you remind me of my brothers getting steamy arguing nearly the same position, on the same side.

While we have no textev, the idea that the apparently rational leadership of the SKM/SEM wouldn't have an embassy or consulate at Meyers, the OFS sector capitol, and Seraphim, one the the nearest systems to Lynx according to the available maps, seems crazy.

Getting some kind of representative at Meyers would have been a rather high priority of even the High Ridge administration, let alone the Grantville.

Granted, having diplomatic dispatch boats, which we'd expect Meyers, Saltash, and Seraphim etc to have, getting messages faster than sheer accident in the case of the AE freighter, that Mike and the RMN suspected of snooping for the emperor [no mention of the MMM doing the same], might interfere with the story line; yet there are various ways that they could be dealt with; ie simply because it was already sent off before the current crisis erupted, a replacement is expected soon since the quarterly summary was just sent since they aren't allowed two, or a maintenance fault, or possibly even impounded [despite the obvious act of war, Saltash's governor might have done it on "concerns for their safety" grounds], etc.

From the textev of SoS and even WroH, the SKM/SEM was increasing its diplomatic and intelligence links and sources throughout the Talbot cluster/quadrant region.

Assuring the security of the TC/Q by putting out diplomatic ears and feelers [like treecat whiskers] is one of the SKM/SEM's assumed prime duties; so embassies, consulates and trade missions spread all over the near star systems are simply a rational unspoken or unwritten given to me, that RFC has rarely failed to provide.

Given 3 years, I find it hard to believe Estelle let alone Elisabeth, would permit lapses like that.

YMMV.

L

SWM wrote:

hanuman wrote:An embassy is not necessarily a full diplomatic office, with a credentialed ambassador at its head. It can be anything from a trade office to a diplomatic consulate to a temporary envoy, as long as its chief officer is a credentialed representative of a foreign government.

I would disagree--a trade office is not an embassy. But it doesn't really matter. Since there appears to be no embassy of any kind, nor even a trade office, on Saltash or Meyers, which are both major systems and far closer to Talbott than the Protectorates, why should we think that Manticore has established embassies in the Protectorates? I repeat, there is no indication that they have done so.

lyonheart wrote:
Assuring the security of the TC/Q by putting out diplomatic ears and feelers [like treecat whiskers] is one of the SKM/SEM's assumed prime duties; so embassies, consulates and trade missions spread all over the near star systems are simply a rational unspoken or unwritten given to me, that RFC has rarely failed to provide.

And since they clearly did not have any such, the assumption that they have done so seems pretty conclusively disproved, right? Now as to why is unclear, but they whole OFS puppets seems reasonable until David chooses to elaborate.

SWM wrote:I stand by my statement--there is no indication that Manticore set up embassies among the Protectorates.

First of all, trade offices are not embassies. Second of all, there are no Protectorates in the Talbott Sector. The Protectorates are quite some distance away from Talbott. Increasing intelligence-gathering in the area around the Talbott Cluster does not mean that Manticore has set up embassies in the Protectorates.

Uhmmm. Meyers was the capital of the Madras sector; the centralized command center for a while sector of OFS Protectorates. Meyers wasn't "quite some distance away" but a virtual next-door neighbor.

However, you are correct that there is no textev of any official Manticoran diplomatic presence in the Madras sector -- at least Adm Gold Peak did not confer on-screen with any before restoring the King of Meyers to his throne, nor did she mention anything she might have learned from them.

I suspect that there is no Manticoran -- or any other star nation's -- diplomatic presence anywhere in the verge that has OFS or a Transtellar in control.

Spies are another story, but again, Adm Gold Peak doesn't give any indication of having local Manticoran information sources.

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:I stand by my statement--there is no indication that Manticore set up embassies among the Protectorates.

First of all, trade offices are not embassies. Second of all, there are no Protectorates in the Talbott Sector. The Protectorates are quite some distance away from Talbott. Increasing intelligence-gathering in the area around the Talbott Cluster does not mean that Manticore has set up embassies in the Protectorates.

Uhmmm. Meyers was the capital of the Madras sector; the centralized command center for a while sector of OFS Protectorates. Meyers wasn't "quite some distance away" but a virtual next-door neighbor.

However, you are correct that there is no textev of any official Manticoran diplomatic presence in the Madras sector -- at least Adm Gold Peak did not confer on-screen with any before restoring the King of Meyers to his throne, nor did she mention anything she might have learned from them.

I suspect that there is no Manticoran -- or any other star nation's -- diplomatic presence anywhere in the verge that has OFS or a Transtellar in control.

Spies are another story, but again, Adm Gold Peak doesn't give any indication of having local Manticoran information sources.

I believe that there is sufficient textev for the assertion to say that Manticore hadn't cultivated much in terms of intel networks in the quadrant or the surrounding neighborhood for understandable reasons. For one thing prior to the opening of the Lynx terminus, the quadrant was far away and relatively unimportant. Secondly, the primary concern of Many intel during the war would have been Haven and secondarily Silesia. There was also some interest in the Andermani and the League as entities whose interests were sometimes competitive with Manticore's own.

The point is that as of Admiral Gold Peak's assignment to the Talbot Quadrant, development of intl networks were still at a very early stage.

Don

Without textev one way or the other, it is my personal opinion that any SEM trade mission or delegation is more likely to be from a Talbott Quadrant world than the OSK. Much more likely is a single individual or firm with no affiliation to a particular world or organization acting as the factor for many planets. Only the RTU was actually big enough to need local offices, and from textev, most of them are within the TQ. The RTU and the worlds they traded with form the basis of the TQ.

Very likely, what intelligence there is, is going to be from the same source Manticor has been using: the local Merchant Marine and gossip from outside civilian sailors. That intelligence is going to vary from very good in the cases where an RTU or other local shipping line called regularly to poor for the ones visited once a year.

Mike might be able to call on help from some them, but most are going to be more loyal to their planet rather than the outsiders.

KNick wrote:Without textev one way or the other, it is my personal opinion that any SEM trade mission or delegation is more likely to be from a Talbott Quadrant world than the OSK. Much more likely is a single individual or firm with no affiliation to a particular world or organization acting as the factor for many planets. Only the RTU was actually big enough to need local offices, and from textev, most of them are within the TQ. The RTU and the worlds they traded with form the basis of the TQ.

David's recent comment on the SEM division of duties appears to have all interstellar relationship negotiations (commercial or otherwise) reserved solely for the imperial government.

Weird Harold wrote:Uhmmm. Meyers was the capital of the Madras sector; the centralized command center for a while sector of OFS Protectorates. Meyers wasn't "quite some distance away" but a virtual next-door neighbor.

No, Meyers is not the "capital of the Madras sector." Yes, it is indeed the headquarters of the OFS in the Madras sector. But the Madras sector is not officially part of the Solarian League, and does not have a "capital." Meyers is a nominally independent star nation, which happens to allow OFS to base some of their forces there. It is not a Protectorate. Nor is it in the zone called the Protectorates. Meyers is actually considerably further away from the Solarian League than the Talbott Cluster.

Similarly, Saltash is nominally independent, and is not a Protectorate.