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Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?

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Re: Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:34 am

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drothgery wrote:Eh. Planets where a large population of unmodified humans can survive for extended periods in an open-air environment would seem likely to be able to support growing cereal grains somewhere. Of course, there are planets in the Honorverse that pretty much aren't populated by unmodified humans ...


And then there are Planets like the Mfecanes, which were colonized by unmodified humans which modified the humans to suit. :shock:

Most planets can probably be terraformed just by planting earth-strains of vegetation. Most planets will have some backstory regarding the difficulties colonization had to overcome and/or how much terraforming had to be done; not that we're going to hear about more than a few of them.

FWIW, Nuncio's sister planet -- where the original colony landed -- killed most of the colonists because they couldn't grow edible crops. With Grayson and Potsdam that makes three of the named planets that have presented food based challenges to human colonization; not a huge percentage, but we haven't heard all of the stories yet either.
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Re: Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?
Post by J6P   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:11 am

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Cherry picked planets is now a basis for large amounts of intersteller bulk trade?

:shock:
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Re: Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?
Post by hanuman   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:12 am

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kzt wrote:The only customer mentioned in the text was manticore, which would certainly help pay for the advanced fabrication systems needed to build warships. But I would tend to doubt they bought enough (or grayson could build enough) to cover the cost of the huge fleets the GSN built.

It appears that essentially trade is only useful if you want to buy stuff from someone else, and a lot of planets don't need to do that. If you are effectively self-sufficient in critical resources and can manufacture modern machine tools/fabrication system (which seems to be the case for most of the core worlds) the main thing interstellar trade does is allow you to buy some things for less then you can make them, which adds to the standard of living of the population. In addition. it allows you to buy luxuries that can't be obtained locally.


From Mr Weber's post:

[9] In terms of Grayson, it wasn't access to interstellar trade which was so economically transformative. It was access to modern interstellar technology, which it acquired through its alliance with Manticore much more than through general interstellar commerce. This is, in fact, one of the huge pro-Manticore influences in Yeltsin; the Graysons understand what Manticore's tech transfers have meant to themselves and to their children's futures. The Grayson economic boom, however, is largely self-fueled as the constraints on food production are gradually eliminated or at least greatly reduced (courtesy of Skydomes), as industry becomes geometrically more productive (courtesy of those tech transfers and of Manticoran investment), and as the Grayson labor force's purchasing power expands in step. The only real export product Grayson has at the moment are starships — military or commercial — and I believe that one can safely assume that Grayson will become/remain part of the Manticoran shipbuilding industry's network for the foreseeable future. In most other respects, however, Grayson's much more likely to be a net importer in the interstellar economy.


The bolded part implies that Grayson sells her ships (I assume civilian ships only, at this point) to other star nations than Manticore...which, come to think of it, still means a helluva lot of export income in absolute terms.

Like I wrote, I might very well be wrong in my assumption of exactly how significant Grayson's export revenues are to her ability to rapidly expand her economy and industrial capacity. Still, every cent does count, doesn't it, and even if the Sword collects only a few billion dollars in tax revenues from those exports, that would still be money that can be invested in Grayson's economic expansion that don't need to be levied elsewhere. My argument holds, even though I might be wrong wrt the extent of those exports' contribution to the Sword's purse.
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Re: Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?
Post by J6P   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:00 am

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hanuman wrote:
kzt wrote:The only customer mentioned in the text was manticore, which would certainly help pay for the advanced fabrication systems needed to build warships. But I would tend to doubt they bought enough (or grayson could build enough) to cover the cost of the huge fleets the GSN built.

It appears that essentially trade is only useful if you want to buy stuff from someone else, and a lot of planets don't need to do that. If you are effectively self-sufficient in critical resources and can manufacture modern machine tools/fabrication system (which seems to be the case for most of the core worlds) the main thing interstellar trade does is allow you to buy some things for less then you can make them, which adds to the standard of living of the population. In addition. it allows you to buy luxuries that can't be obtained locally.


From Mr Weber's post:

[9] In terms of Grayson, it wasn't access to interstellar trade which was so economically transformative. It was access to modern interstellar technology, which it acquired through its alliance with Manticore much more than through general interstellar commerce. This is, in fact, one of the huge pro-Manticore influences in Yeltsin; the Graysons understand what Manticore's tech transfers have meant to themselves and to their children's futures. The Grayson economic boom, however, is largely self-fueled as the constraints on food production are gradually eliminated or at least greatly reduced (courtesy of Skydomes), as industry becomes geometrically more productive (courtesy of those tech transfers and of Manticoran investment), and as the Grayson labor force's purchasing power expands in step. The only real export product Grayson has at the moment are starships — military or commercial — and I believe that one can safely assume that Grayson will become/remain part of the Manticoran shipbuilding industry's network for the foreseeable future. In most other respects, however, Grayson's much more likely to be a net importer in the interstellar economy.


The bolded part implies that Grayson sells her ships (I assume civilian ships only, at this point) to other star nations than Manticore...which, come to think of it, still means a helluva lot of export income in absolute terms.

Like I wrote, I might very well be wrong in my assumption of exactly how significant Grayson's export revenues are to her ability to rapidly expand her economy and industrial capacity. Still, every cent does count, doesn't it, and even if the Sword collects only a few billion dollars in tax revenues from those exports, that would still be money that can be invested in Grayson's economic expansion that don't need to be levied elsewhere. My argument holds, even though I might be wrong wrt the extent of those exports' contribution to the Sword's purse.


Since Manticore was not building freighters for quite some time, their customers did not disappear. Yes, Grayson is/was selling freighters to Manticore, but other local customers, Manticore used to sell to, are still there as well who need freighters. Will this be a large number? No. But enough. One would think that any freight business anywhere within 50LY of Manticore would surely be dominated by MMM. Manticoran flagged, majority owned in other local systems. (Includes all legs of MWHJ)

If the MMM is as large as we think, I would presume there are many other local star systems building freighters, or own freight lines, flagged under the Manticoran flag.
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Re: Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:22 am

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J6P wrote:Cherry picked planets is now a basis for large amounts of intersteller bulk trade?

:shock:


No, just a refutation that mere human colonization being proof that interstellar bulk trade couldn't possibly be necessary.

Grayson, Potsdam, and Nuncio's sister planet are just the tip of the iceberg; those three are the ones we're told about as a way of illustrating the perils of colonization. Other, less extreme cases also likely exist, although we aren't explicitly told the backstories.

The bottom line is that the MWW has said that interstellar bulk trade does exist in HIS universe and it IS profitable. IMHO, he has also given us more than sufficient textev to make his vision of interstellar commerce plausible.
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Re: Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?
Post by J6P   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:52 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
J6P wrote:Cherry picked planets is now a basis for large amounts of intersteller bulk trade?

:shock:


No, just a refutation that mere human colonization being proof that interstellar bulk trade couldn't possibly be necessary.


Yea, because folks were saying under NO circumstances would bulk goods ever be shipped... :roll:

In short you are just being argumentative to be argumentative. Gotcha. :twisted:
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Re: Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:37 am

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J6P wrote:In short you are just being argumentative to be argumentative. Gotcha. :twisted:


I'm not the one disagreeing with the Creator of a fictional universe about how that universe works. :roll:
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Re: Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?
Post by J6P   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:50 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
J6P wrote:In short you are just being argumentative to be argumentative. Gotcha. :twisted:


I'm not the one disagreeing with the Creator of a fictional universe about how that universe works. :roll:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

If Bulk cargo in HV was anywhere close to earth, greater than 2/3 of tonnage in HV would be bulk cargo. It obviously is not that. You keep taking the absurd position regarding anyone posting, that anyone who dares state that bulk cargo moved in HV is a fraction of that on earth, is denying authorial right.

Huge difference to those who are rational anyways, between bulk cargo shipment is like it is here on earth, verses a rare occurrence due to exceptions. Exceptions you proudly display as if they are the mean of a bell curve and therefore everyone else must be denyers.

Enjoy your extremes.
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Re: Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?
Post by Duckk   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:53 am

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Knock it off with the insults, people.
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Re: Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?
Post by SWM   » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:26 am

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J6P wrote:Yea, because folks were saying under NO circumstances would bulk goods ever be shipped... :roll:

In short you are just being argumentative to be argumentative. Gotcha. :twisted:

No one said that. I challenge you to find any statement like that in this or any related threads.
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