Excusez-moi

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Anyway, what I was alluding to is that I don't think that we can place the Wintons in that pile, except tentatively. Remember, we do not know what the Wintons genetic makeup consists of. There is a statement that it is a lot like or similar to (forget the exact wording) the Harringtons. But again, that is a bit vague. Personally I'm not sure I can assume the Wintons even have the IQ enhancement lest someone has the proof. I'd wager they do, since they also bond with Treecats, but that could be argued to be circumstantial evidence.

tlb wrote:If you carefully read what Allison said in the text presented in this thread, it is clear that she believes that they have an IQ enhancement. The only vague part in her statement was whether their enhancement also results in an attraction to bonding by the treecats.

penny wrote:She believes. But she does not know for certain. Because it is classified. It could be that Beth has confided in her since, but are we to assume that? Again, if I had to plunk down money on it, I'd wager the Wintons do have the IQ enhancement. However! The Wintons might also have a genotype where the IQ is NOT an afterthought.

The text does not say classified, but just unknown to the general public. However Allison is a top geneticist, with very good connections at Beowulf where they probably have very good records of genetic modifications. She is saying that the Wintons have an IQ enhancement based on what she read in the records that she could access. From Ashes of Victory:

Chapter 6 wrote:"And good morning to you, too, Captain Henke. Thank you for delivering Dame Honor in one piece."
"We strive to please, Your Majesty," Henke replied with a certain unctuousness.
"And with such deep and heartfelt respect, too," Elizabeth observed.
"Always," Henke agreed, and the cousins grinned at one another. They really did look remarkably alike, although Henke showed the outward signs of the original, modified Winton genotype far more strongly. Elizabeth's rich mahogany skin was considerably lighter than her cousin's, yet Honor rather suspected Elizabeth had even more of the less obvious advantages Roger Winton's parents had had designed into their progeny. The exact nature of those modifications, while not precisely classified, was unknown to the general public, as was the very fact that any Winton had ever been a genie. . In fact, the Star Kingdom's security people took considerable pains to keep it that way, and Honor knew only because Mike had been her Academy roommate and closest friend for just under forty T-years . . . and because Mike had known she was a fellow genie for almost all that timeBut whichever of them had more of the original modifications, both had the same, distinctive Winton features, and there were barely three years between their ages.

From Ashes of Victory:

Chapter 17 wrote:But the Meyerdahl Betas also got what they used to call an 'IQ enhancer.'
-- skip --
"I take it," Honor said very carefully, "that your research didn't indicate that we were one of those 'less successful efforts'?"
"Oh, heavens, no! In fact, the Meyerdahl Betas and the Wintons have quite a lot in common. I don't have as complete a degree of access to the Winton records, of course, but even from the incomplete data in the public files, it's obvious that whoever designed the Winton modification for Roger Winton's parents was remarkably successful. As was the team that put together the Meyerdahl Beta package. I'd like to say they succeeded because they were so good at their jobs, but I rather doubt that was the case, particularly in light of their relatively primitive understanding of just what they were tinkering with. I think that, as we geneticists like to put it when discussing the vast evolutionary sweep of upward human development, they lucked out.

The public records she mentioned might still be closed to all without her connections. Note that this last paragraph in the text is about the IQ enhancement, which has a good chance to go wrong, but here it went well in both cases.

Oops, we are supposedly talking about Honor. We'd have to change that to... eat a peak bear’s weight in peak bear!

tlb wrote:If you carefully read what Allison said in the text presented in this thread, it is clear that she believes that they have an IQ enhancement. The only vague part in her statement was whether their enhancement also results in an attraction to bonding by the treecats.

penny wrote:Perhaps not classified, but semi-classified. Allison has incomplete access to the Winton files. And she does not say the Wintons have the IQ enhancement from what I am reading. She simply says that the Wintons and the Betas have a lot in common. Respectfully tlb, you are reading too much into that commonality that isn't specifically spelled out. That commonality could simply be that the two mods are extremely successful. That in itself would satisfy having “a lot in common .” Along with the other parameters of the mod which include increased muscle mass, respiratory alterations, etc. But I do not think we can assume an increased metabolism like the Betas have, or it would have been mentioned that the Queen also eats like a King. A king of the ages who just grabs a leg of lamb and a leg of peak bear in opposite hands and goes to pigging out.

Doh! Liz is a Queen! … Okay, she will fold a napkin in her lap first.

But I would expect you of all people, tlb, to grind my gears if it were I who digested that passage as if they both had the Beta mod or that the Winton mod includes an IQ enhancer from those passages. Again, the “lot in common” could be referring to all of the other enhancements minus the IQ enhancer; since the IQ enhancer isn't specifically spelled out. And as I mentioned upstream, the Winton mod could have included an IQ enhancer natively and not as an afterthought; which would still go towards the motive of having a lot in common. (Enhanced IQ is enhanced IQ regardless of whether it is incorporated natively or added as an afterthought.) But we cannot assume or read much more into it than that, because even though there is a lot in common, the commonalities are not specifically spelled out. Plus, IINM, we also know there are at least some differences as well. Like, none of the Wintons have Honor’s inability to regenerate as far as we know. And none of the Wintons can eat their weight in peak bear.

Oops, we are supposedly talking about Honor. We'd have to change that to... eat a peak bear’s weight in peak bear!

Chapter 17 wrote:But the Meyerdahl Betas also got what they used to call an 'IQ enhancer.' We've learned enough more about human intelligence since then that reputable geneticists refuse to tinker with it except under extraordinary conditions. For the most part, you can only enhance one aspect of the entire complex of attributes we think of as 'intelligence' at the expense of other aspects. That isn't an absolute, but it works as a rule of thumb, and it's one reason I never mentioned my research to you or your dad. There was no reason to—and the . . . less successful efforts at engineered intelligence were one reason Old Earth's Final War was as bad as it was. And one reason humanity in general turned so strongly against the entire concept of engineering human genes at all."

"I take it," Honor said very carefully, "that your research didn't indicate that we were one of those 'less successful efforts'?"

"Oh, heavens, no! In fact, the Meyerdahl Betas and the Wintons have quite a lot in common. I don't have as complete a degree of access to the Winton records, of course, but even from the incomplete data in the public files, it's obvious that whoever designed the Winton modification for Roger Winton's parents was remarkably successful. As was the team that put together the Meyerdahl Beta package. I'd like to say they succeeded because they were so good at their jobs, but I rather doubt that was the case, particularly in light of their relatively primitive understanding of just what they were tinkering with. I think that, as we geneticists like to put it when discussing the vast evolutionary sweep of upward human development, they lucked out.

"The really unsuccessful efforts, on the other hand, tended to show very high levels of aggressiveness, like the 'super soldiers' on Old Earth, and weed themselves out of the genotype. As a matter of fact, that aggressiveness was the most common nasty side effect of intelligence modification projects. Some of the recipients verged uncomfortably closely on sociopathic personalities, without the sort of moral governors people need in a healthy society. And when you coupled that with an awareness that they were designed to be (and usually were) quite a lot 'smarter,' at least in certain, specific ways, than the normals around them, they started acting like a pride of hexapumas quarreling over who should boss all those inferior normals about until they got around to picking out lunch."

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:If you carefully read what Allison said in the text presented in this thread, it is clear that she believes that they have an IQ enhancement. The only vague part in her statement was whether their enhancement also results in an attraction to bonding by the treecats.

penny wrote:Perhaps not classified, but semi-classified. Allison has incomplete access to the Winton files. And she does not say the Wintons have the IQ enhancement from what I am reading. She simply says that the Wintons and the Betas have a lot in common. Respectfully tlb, you are reading too much into that commonality that isn't specifically spelled out. That commonality could simply be that the two mods are extremely successful. That in itself would satisfy having “a lot in common .” Along with the other parameters of the mod which include increased muscle mass, respiratory alterations, etc. But I do not think we can assume an increased metabolism like the Betas have, or it would have been mentioned that the Queen also eats like a King. A king of the ages who just grabs a leg of lamb and a leg of peak bear in opposite hands and goes to pigging out.

Doh! Liz is a Queen! … Okay, she will fold a napkin in her lap first.

But I would expect you of all people, tlb, to grind my gears if it were I who digested that passage as if they both had the Beta mod or that the Winton mod includes an IQ enhancer from those passages. Again, the “lot in common” could be referring to all of the other enhancements minus the IQ enhancer; since the IQ enhancer isn't specifically spelled out. And as I mentioned upstream, the Winton mod could have included an IQ enhancer natively and not as an afterthought; which would still go towards the motive of having a lot in common. (Enhanced IQ is enhanced IQ regardless of whether it is incorporated natively or added as an afterthought.) But we cannot assume or read much more into it than that, because even though there is a lot in common, the commonalities are not specifically spelled out. Plus, IINM, we also know there are at least some differences as well. Like, none of the Wintons have Honor’s inability to regenerate as far as we know. And none of the Wintons can eat their weight in peak bear.

Oops, we are supposedly talking about Honor. We'd have to change that to... eat a peak bear’s weight in peak bear!

As you correctly state, the Wintons do not have any of the base Meyerdahl modifications for heavy gravity. So if Allison is really talking about something in common and not just name dropping a prominent family that has had a successful genetic modification, then it has to be related to the contents of the Beta package. From Ashes of Victory:

Chapter 17 wrote:But the Meyerdahl Betas also got what they used to call an 'IQ enhancer.' We've learned enough more about human intelligence since then that reputable geneticists refuse to tinker with it except under extraordinary conditions. For the most part, you can only enhance one aspect of the entire complex of attributes we think of as 'intelligence' at the expense of other aspects. That isn't an absolute, but it works as a rule of thumb, and it's one reason I never mentioned my research to you or your dad. There was no reason to—and the . . . less successful efforts at engineered intelligence were one reason Old Earth's Final War was as bad as it was. And one reason humanity in general turned so strongly against the entire concept of engineering human genes at all."

"I take it," Honor said very carefully, "that your research didn't indicate that we were one of those 'less successful efforts'?"

"Oh, heavens, no! In fact, the Meyerdahl Betas and the Wintons have quite a lot in common. I don't have as complete a degree of access to the Winton records, of course, but even from the incomplete data in the public files, it's obvious that whoever designed the Winton modification for Roger Winton's parents was remarkably successful. As was the team that put together the Meyerdahl Beta package. I'd like to say they succeeded because they were so good at their jobs, but I rather doubt that was the case, particularly in light of their relatively primitive understanding of just what they were tinkering with. I think that, as we geneticists like to put it when discussing the vast evolutionary sweep of upward human development, they lucked out.

"The really unsuccessful efforts, on the other hand, tended to show very high levels of aggressiveness, like the 'super soldiers' on Old Earth, and weed themselves out of the genotype. As a matter of fact, that aggressiveness was the most common nasty side effect of intelligence modification projects. Some of the recipients verged uncomfortably closely on sociopathic personalities, without the sort of moral governors people need in a healthy society. And when you coupled that with an awareness that they were designed to be (and usually were) quite a lot 'smarter,' at least in certain, specific ways, than the normals around them, they started acting like a pride of hexapumas quarreling over who should boss all those inferior normals about until they got around to picking out lunch."

If the Wintons do not have an IQ enhancement, then there is no reason to include them in this discussion about the dangers of making modifications to intelligence. Note that Allison is a researcher in this field.

But you can go ahead and believe whatever you want; which somehow is that the Wintons have an IQ enhancement, while rejecting any evidence that it exists. I would hope that you are not rejecting it, simply because of the identity of someone who accepts it.

PS: Failure to regenerate is only tied to the Beta modification, because it is a dominate gene that somehow got picked up as a hitchhiker.

penny wrote:Please read my posts tlb.

That is not the discussion that prompted this “argument.” The discussion that prompted this argument is when I said that Honor is the first officer in the navy (who has displayed abilities far above the norm in tactics and strategy) to receive the Meyerdahl-B IQ enhancement with the possible exception of the Wintons. That is not to say the Wintons do not have an IQ enhancement. I even said I'd wager that they do. But absent clearly stated evidence, I do not think we can assume what version of enhancement that is; whether it be the Meyerdahl-B as an afterthought, or whether the Winton's IQ adjustment is native. Why do the Winton's IQ adjustment have to be the Meyerdahl-B version?; or any version that adds it as an afterthought? I'm simply saying that I personally am not willing to bet the farm on either.

I agree that the Wintons probably do have the IQ enhancement, as she and Honor has forms of aggression that is inherent in all IQ mods. Beth can sit on a grudge until it hatches into little baby chicks. But from what I gather of the passage, all IQ mods have the aggression side effect.

But NONE of the Wintons have a failure to regenerate. And none of them have the increased metabolism that Honor has; both of those traits are indicative of the Meyerdahl-B mod.

You even ended your post agreeing that failure to regenerate is only tied to the Meyerdahl-B mod.

Exactly! I simply caution assuming the Winton version is definitely or specifically the Meyerdahl-B mod.

One reason that fuels my reluctance to believe they are the same is the discussion of why the Wintons would want to keep their specific recipe a secret; because of genetic warfare. If both Honor and the Wintons share the same beta enhancement, then the MA can kill a lot of birds with one test tube.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Please read my posts tlb.

That is not the discussion that prompted this “argument.” The discussion that prompted this argument is when I said that Honor is the first officer in the navy (who has displayed abilities far above the norm in tactics and strategy) to receive the Meyerdahl-B IQ enhancement with the possible exception of the Wintons. That is not to say the Wintons do not have an IQ enhancement. I even said I'd wager that they do. But absent clearly stated evidence, I do not think we can assume what version of enhancement that is; whether it be the Meyerdahl-B as an afterthought, or whether the Winton's IQ adjustment is native. Why do the Winton's IQ adjustment have to be the Meyerdahl-B version?; or any version that adds it as an afterthought? I'm simply saying that I personally am not willing to bet the farm on either.

I agree that the Wintons probably do have the IQ enhancement, as she and Honor has forms of aggression that is inherent in all IQ mods. Beth can sit on a grudge until it hatches into little baby chicks. But from what I gather of the passage, all IQ mods have the aggression side effect.

But NONE of the Wintons have a failure to regenerate. And none of them have the increased metabolism that Honor has; both of those traits are indicative of the Meyerdahl-B mod.

You even ended your post agreeing that failure to regenerate is only tied to the Meyerdahl-B mod.

Exactly! I simply caution assuming the Winton version is definitely or specifically the Meyerdahl-B mod.

One reason that fuels my reluctance to believe they are the same is the discussion of why the Wintons would want to keep their specific recipe a secret; because of genetic warfare. If both Honor and the Wintons share the same beta enhancement, then the MA can kill a lot of birds with one test tube.

What are you talking about?

tlb wrote:My last post was clearly addressing your caution for believing that Allison is stating that the Wintons have an IQ enhancement.

tlb wrote:Nowhere have I argued that the Winton genetic modification is the SAME as the Beta mod and Allison is not stating that, hence her caution in suggesting that there is increased attraction for the cats to bond with the Wintons as a result.

The similarity between the Harringtons and the Wintons is that they both have an IQ enhancement that works without the serious side effects that can plague such changes. Yes; they both have a temper, but NOT the hyper-aggression that can ensue.

penny wrote:Then why are you grinding my gears?; when what fueled the disagreement is my statement that Honor is the first "appropriately successful" officer in the Navy who has received the Meyerdahl-B enhancement; with the possible exception of the Wintons.

I need an answer to that. Why are you grinding my gears?

My point is it does not matter whether Honor is the first to receive the IQ enhancement. She is the first in the navy to have received the IQ enhancement! The possible exception to that is the Wintons. So I must change that statement to Honor is the first IQ enhanced genie who is head over heels above the rest.

Personally I'm not sure I can assume the Wintons even have the IQ enhancement lest someone has the proof.

penny wrote:Since Honor's mod was the first to receive the IQ enhancement, the comment that she is a lost Alpha line could simply indicate that MA research is an offshoot or continuation of the Meyerdahl B enhancement.

penny wrote:But the gist of my point that was missed is that Honor is without a doubt the first Beta with the IQ enhancement who is in the predatory jungle that is the navy!
My point is it does not matter whether Honor is the first to receive the IQ enhancement. She is the first in the navy to have received the IQ enhancement! The possible exception to that is the Wintons. So I must change that statement to Honor is the first IQ enhanced genie who is head over heels above the rest.

penny wrote:

tlb wrote:It is very unlikely that in all the years since Meyerdahl was settled, that Honor is the first Beta genie to have joined the navy (they probably have been members of various navies over the centuries). She is only the first Beta in the navy with a series of books written about her exploits.

She IS now. Do you think there's someone else in the galaxy equal to her? There's Anisimovna. But, different career paths.

Do reread that and note that I changed the statement to allow for the Wintons. As in Roger. Honor is head over heels.

penny wrote:

penny wrote:The possible exception to that is the Wintons.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:That's not a "possible" exception. It's a definite one, because we know of Wintons serving in the Navy from the time the Navy was first called "the Navy."

I just can't seem to get it right about how much of my logic I should spell out. When I think my logic would be obvious and easily digested it isn't, which oftentimes lead to walls of text and / or misunderstandings.
Anyway, what I was alluding to is that I don't think that we can place the Wintons in that pile, except tentatively. Remember, we do not know what the Wintons genetic makeup consists of. There is a statement that it is a lot like or similar to (forget the exact wording) the Harringtons. But again, that is a bit vague. Personally I'm not sure I can assume the Wintons even have the IQ enhancement lest someone has the proof. I'd wager they do, since they also bond with Treecats, but that could be argued to be circumstantial evidence.

penny wrote:

penny wrote:Anyway, what I was alluding to is that I don't think that we can place the Wintons in that pile, except tentatively. Remember, we do not know what the Wintons genetic makeup consists of. There is a statement that it is a lot like or similar to (forget the exact wording) the Harringtons. But again, that is a bit vague. Personally I'm not sure I can assume the Wintons even have the IQ enhancement lest someone has the proof. I'd wager they do, since they also bond with Treecats, but that could be argued to be circumstantial evidence.

tlb wrote: If you carefully read what Allison said in the text presented in this thread, it is clear that she believes that they have an IQ enhancement. The only vague part in her statement was whether their enhancement also results in an attraction to bonding by the treecats.

She believes. But she does not know for certain. Because it is classified. It could be that Beth has confided in her since, but are we to assume that? Again, if I had to plunk down money on it, I'd wager the Wintons do have the IQ enhancement. However! The Wintons might also have a genotype where the IQ is NOT an afterthought.

penny wrote:Perhaps not classified, but semi-classified. Allison has incomplete access to the Winton files. And she does not say the Wintons have the IQ enhancement from what I am reading. She simply says that the Wintons and the Betas have a lot in common. Respectfully tlb, you are reading too much into that commonality that isn't specifically spelled out. That commonality could simply be that the two mods are extremely successful. That in itself would satisfy having “a lot in common .” Along with the other parameters of the mod which include increased muscle mass, respiratory alterations, etc. But I do not think we can assume an increased metabolism like the Betas have, or it would have been mentioned that the Queen also eats like a King.

penny wrote:Ah, I understand now. And I take full blame for it. I was a bit careless in my wording because I was lazy. I hate writing out Meyerdahl-B every single time. And the only abbreviation I can think of is M-B. But I thought it would be understand within the context of the discussion. I tried to ensure it would be taken as it should be by referencing the enhancement as "the". My fault. My apology.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Ah, I understand now. And I take full blame for it. I was a bit careless in my wording because I was lazy. I hate writing out Meyerdahl-B every single time. And the only abbreviation I can think of is M-B. But I thought it would be understand within the context of the discussion. I tried to ensure it would be taken as it should be by referencing the enhancement as "the". My fault. My apology.

I suppose you could have said the "Beta mod"; but never mind, it is always good to clear up a misunderstanding. Thank you.

penny wrote:Ah, I understand now. And I take full blame for it. I was a bit careless in my wording because I was lazy. I hate writing out Meyerdahl-B every single time. And the only abbreviation I can think of is M-B. But I thought it would be understand within the context of the discussion. I tried to ensure it would be taken as it should be by referencing the enhancement as "the". My fault. My apology.

tlb wrote:I suppose you could have said the "Beta mod"; but never mind, it is always good to clear up a misunderstanding. Thank you.

penny wrote:Actually I think I did use that abbreviation in several places when I thought it was prudent to do so. But when specifically referring to the IQ enhancement, I didn't think it was prudent to simply say "the beta mod." As I understand it, the beta mod and the IQ enhancement – although they go hand in hand – are two different procedures.

In fact, I used to wonder if there might be some beta mod recipients who either elected not to get the IQ enhancement or failed to get it for whatever reason. Remember, the IQ enhancer was grandfathered in. Some might not have gotten it. And some might have elected not to get it on their own; not wanting their kids to stand out and possibly be targeted in certain harsh, predatory environments in certain neighborhoods like school.