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Spoilers - Toll of Honor

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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 10:12 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:And as I said, Hellbarde's capabilities came as a surprise to the crew of the Jessica Epps and Honor.

Though, until she finally ended things with a lucky hit in, the Hellbarde had to have been pretty surprised by Jessica Epps' capabilities as well.

Despite starting the fight by a surprise opening salvo from beyond what the RMN thought IAN missile range was, the text is clear that the 37 minute fight between the two heavy cruisers was not going well for Hellbarde.
War of Honor wrote:"For what it matters, Chantilly's sensor data clearly indicate that Jessica Epps was winning the engagement handily when a hit from one of Hellbarde's last laser heads apparently caused one of her fusion plants to lose containment."


Ton for ton the IAN ships at that point weren't yet a match for reasonably modern RMN units. (Or at least that was true of Hellbarde and the trio of CLs that tangled with Ephraim Tudor -- but I guess, in fairness, we don't know if those were the most modern IAN designs either)



That said, the RMN CAs involved in those two encounters, Jessica Epps and Ephraim Tudor, weren't the most modern CA's the RMN had either. After all, Sag-C's like Hexapuma, with Mark 16 DDMs, were already in service by that point -- while these two were apparently (based on the engagement ranges) using the older, smaller, Mark 14 ERMs. Epps, which the text calls "an Edward Saganami-class cruiser" [WoH] pretty clearly being a Sag-A (though probably a flight II); and Tudor (based on name and missile used) being either another Sag-A, or possibly a Sag-B.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by penny   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 10:45 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:And as I said, Hellbarde's capabilities came as a surprise to the crew of the Jessica Epps and Honor.

Though, until she finally ended things with a lucky hit in, the Hellbarde had to have been pretty surprised by Jessica Epps' capabilities as well.

Despite starting the fight by a surprise opening salvo from beyond what the RMN thought IAN missile range was, the text is clear that the 37 minute fight between the two heavy cruisers was not going well for Hellbarde.
War of Honor wrote:"For what it matters, Chantilly's sensor data clearly indicate that Jessica Epps was winning the engagement handily when a hit from one of Hellbarde's last laser heads apparently caused one of her fusion plants to lose containment."


Ton for ton the IAN ships at that point weren't yet a match for reasonably modern RMN units. (Or at least that was true of Hellbarde and the trio of CLs that tangled with Ephraim Tudor -- but I guess, in fairness, we don't know if those were the most modern IAN designs either)



That said, the RMN CAs involved in those two encounters, Jessica Epps and Ephraim Tudor, weren't the most modern CA's the RMN had either. After all, Sag-C's like Hexapuma, with Mark 16 DDMs, were already in service by that point -- while these two were apparently (based on the engagement ranges) using the older, smaller, Mark 14 ERMs. Epps, which the text calls "an Edward Saganami-class cruiser" [WoH] pretty clearly being a Sag-A (though probably a flight II); and Tudor (based on name and missile used) being either another Sag-A, or possibly a Sag-B.

Didn't Honor speculate about the IAN's abilities? In a nutshell she said they were no match for the RMN.


Drats! I hate this text version of the website.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 11:41 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Though, until she finally ended things with a lucky hit in, the Hellbarde had to have been pretty surprised by Jessica Epps' capabilities as well.

Despite starting the fight by a surprise opening salvo from beyond what the RMN thought IAN missile range was, the text is clear that the 37 minute fight between the two heavy cruisers was not going well for Hellbarde.
War of Honor wrote:"For what it matters, Chantilly's sensor data clearly indicate that Jessica Epps was winning the engagement handily when a hit from one of Hellbarde's last laser heads apparently caused one of her fusion plants to lose containment."


Ton for ton the IAN ships at that point weren't yet a match for reasonably modern RMN units. (Or at least that was true of Hellbarde and the trio of CLs that tangled with Ephraim Tudor -- but I guess, in fairness, we don't know if those were the most modern IAN designs either)


I think we can safely conclude that they were. We know from later that the Adlers, which were the IAN's best effort at SD(P), were not yet in the same league as the Invictus or even the Medusa, and probably not as the RHN's Sovereign of Space. The IAN had advantage of not being at war to design the ships, but it had also the disadvantage of not being at war. That is, on one hand, they had the time and space to design them the best they could, without having to come up with something to keep their Empire from being conquered. They had the advantage of seeing what the combatants were using and thus copying their designs. But not being at war meant that they didn't have that extra pressure that "the prospect of hanging at dawn focuses one's mind." They also didn't have any direct samples from the RMN to work with, except what they may have been able to steal or acquire through second hand (probably bribing some ex-PN officer).

I also believe the faction that was pushing for war would have wanted to know just how good the RMN actually was. So throwing their best ships at it would have been the right way to do it. They knew beyond doubt that the RMN had trounced the old PRN during Operation Buttercup. So sending an old-style cruiser with SDMs to fight a Saganami would not have yielded sufficient data.


That said, the RMN CAs involved in those two encounters, Jessica Epps and Ephraim Tudor, weren't the most modern CA's the RMN had either. After all, Sag-C's like Hexapuma, with Mark 16 DDMs, were already in service by that point -- while these two were apparently (based on the engagement ranges) using the older, smaller, Mark 14 ERMs. Epps, which the text calls "an Edward Saganami-class cruiser" [WoH] pretty clearly being a Sag-A (though probably a flight II); and Tudor (based on name and missile used) being either another Sag-A, or possibly a Sag-B.


They were Sag-A, so indeed they weren't the most recent, as the Bs already existed. Though the difference between those two isn't that great. Neither ship would is able to fire the Mk16 DDM (which didn't exist at the time), so the Epps was a good sample of what the IAN would face if it tried to push for conquest of Silesia.

It's too early for Saganami-C though. As far as we know, the first one to commission was the Hexapuma (so we should start a petition to rename them to Hexapuma-class).

Anyway, my point was that Hellbarde's capabilities were a surprise. It's not relevant that they were still outmatched by the Saganamis. It's that the RMN didn't know the IAN had anything that could come that close. In turn, that means the RMN had not been able to acquire intel on the IAN construction for about 5 years.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jul 19, 2024 1:16 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Anyway, my point was that Hellbarde's capabilities were a surprise. It's not relevant that they were still outmatched by the Saganamis. It's that the RMN didn't know the IAN had anything that could come that close. In turn, that means the RMN had not been able to acquire intel on the IAN construction for about 5 years.

True. true.

And I wasn't disagreeing.

My post started out an a mildly amusing one liner -- and then it got away from me, as most do, grew (by way of a couple of tangets and more time that I'd like to admit checking text-ev) into a minor wall of text.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by penny   » Fri Jul 19, 2024 5:41 am

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I really don't mean to cast any aspersions in this one instance, but it is unavoidable. If the RMN'd known about the IAN's abilities, the RMN would've won that match hands down. So, perhaps that incident was their first taste of institutional arrogance. Although it might be a bit unfair because the RMN were still keeping a lid on their maximum abilities.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Jul 19, 2024 1:36 pm

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penny wrote:I really don't mean to cast any aspersions in this one instance, but it is unavoidable. If the RMN'd known about the IAN's abilities, the RMN would've won that match hands down. So, perhaps that incident was their first taste of institutional arrogance. Although it might be a bit unfair because the RMN were still keeping a lid on their maximum abilities.


It was a consequence the Janacek Admiralty's sheer incompetence. Remember that Francis Jurgensen was the Second Lord and responsible for ONI, and he was cherry-picking data that he was telling Janacek, let alone the Cabinet or the RMN officers. He was brought up on charges for that. Further, Honor was sent to Marsh to get out of the capital and become unable to voice her opposition in the House of Lords. Janacek wouldn't have been terribly sorry if she were to "have an accident" so he wouldn't have arranged to get her the best intel on the situation.

He and his admiralty were indeed guilty of arrogance. They didn't believe that anyone could surpass them or come close in military prowess, so they stopped looking into Haven's capabilities. It's no stretch to say they didn't look at the Andermani either.

And finally, it was the Andermani being really competent at what they do. They are good at military and at spying, so it's also no surprise that they could hide their military advances from spying.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Daryl   » Sun Jul 21, 2024 3:01 am

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Hi Penny.
Just an aside. My android tablet only has a text version of this web site, but my Windows 11 PC is as usual, with graphics and easy links.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by penny   » Sun Jul 21, 2024 2:38 pm

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Honor has to accept having her armsmen around everywhere she goes. But the Emperor allows nobody in his presence who are armed. Are Honor's armsmen allowed in the Palace in the presence of the Queen?

No wonder the Emperor does not leave the planet. He would have to accept being in the presence of armed people.

What happens if Honor has to be arrested or even questioned by Landing's police or the DoN police?
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Jul 21, 2024 3:13 pm

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penny wrote:Honor has to accept having her armsmen around everywhere she goes. But the Emperor allows nobody in his presence who are armed. Are Honor's armsmen allowed in the Palace in the presence of the Queen?

No wonder the Emperor does not leave the planet. He would have to accept being in the presence of armed people.

What happens if Honor has to be arrested or even questioned by Landing's police or the DoN police?

The answer to the first is clearly yes she has brought her armsmen, armed, into Elizabeth's presence in Mount Royal. (See chapter 6 of Ashes of Victory) To ease things slightly Honor only brought the minimum she could under Grayson law [edit:(2 instead of her normal 3)] - but the text is quite explicit that 1) they were armed, 2) palace security was unhappy (but professional) about it, and 3) they were in the same room as Honor and Elizabeth.

Technically arresting or questioning Honor would be tricky, as she'd presumably have diplomatic immunity as Steadholder Harrington. But should that happen, or she agreed to be questioned, her armsmen would be required to be there.
AFAIK the only people who can strip her of the right and obligation to have armed armsmen with her are the Conclave should they find her guilty of treason and strip her of her steadholdership. Otherwise Grayson law requires them, and it's a diplomatic question to accommodate that.
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Sun Jul 21, 2024 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by tlb   » Sun Jul 21, 2024 3:53 pm

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penny wrote:Honor has to accept having her armsmen around everywhere she goes. But the Emperor allows nobody in his presence who are armed. Are Honor's armsmen allowed in the Palace in the presence of the Queen?

No wonder the Emperor does not leave the planet. He would have to accept being in the presence of armed people.

What happens if Honor has to be arrested or even questioned by Landing's police or the DoN police?
Jonathan_S wrote:The answer to the first is clearly yes she has brought her armsmen, armed, into Elizabeth's presence in Mount Royal. (See chapter 6 of Ashes of Victory) To ease things slightly Honor only brought the minimum she could under Grayson law (3) - but the text is quite explicit that 1) they were armed, 2) palace security was unhappy (but professional) about it, and 3) they were in the same room as Honor and Elizabeth.

Technically arresting or questioning Honor would be tricky, as she'd presumably have diplomatic immunity as Steadholder Harrington. But should that happen, or she agreed to be questioned, her armsmen would be required to be there.
AFAIK the only people who can strip her of the right and obligation to have armed armsmen with her are the Conclave should they find her guilty of treason and strip her of her steadholdership. Otherwise Grayson law requires them, and it's a diplomatic question to accommodate that.

On the other hand, Honor has in fact met someone with unarmed guards by her side for the purposes of diplomacy (the minimum number is 2), from War of Honor:
Chapter 14 wrote:Here and there, expressions clouded with disapproval as the two armsmen brought their holstered side arms into the presence of the Queen of Manticore, but no one was going to be foolish enough to comment on it. Not here. Not in front of Elizabeth III.

Chapter 51 wrote:The fregatten kapitän escorting Honor from the superdreadnought Campenhausen's boat bay was perfectly courteous, but he clearly had his reservations about this entire business. The fact that the holsters of her three accompanying armsmen were conspicuously empty had apparently reconciled him somewhat, but from the look he'd given Nimitz, the 'cat's reputation had preceded him. Apparently the fregatten kapitän wasn't any too certain that he shouldn't have been considered as much a weapon as the armsmen's pulsers. On the other hand, he obviously wasn't prepared to argue the point on his own authority.

-- skip --


"Your Grace," he said, returning his attention fully to Honor, "I apologize for any unintended insult in our insistence that no weapons be brought into the Herzog's presence. The stipulation was not his to make. The Emperor has made himself most specific on this particular issue in the wake of the Hofschulte Incident. I am afraid that his instructions are nondiscretionary."

-- skip --

"I assure you, Kapitän Isenhoffer, that I don't feel insulted in the least," she reassured the Andermani officer. "However, there is one small additional item I should deal with before meeting with the Herzog. Excuse me a moment."

Isenhoffer looked puzzled, but the confusion in his expression was nothing compared to LaFollet's expression as she urged Nimitz down from her shoulder and passed him to Simon Mattingly. Then she unsealed her uniform tunic and handed it to LaFollet. Her personal armsman gave her a very old-fashioned look, indeed, as he took the garment from her, and his look became even more old-fashioned as she rolled up the left cuff of her uniform blouse. The smile she gave him mingled impishness with just a hint of apology, and then she told her prosthetic hand to flex in a movement which should have brought the tip of her index finger into contact with the tip of her little finger. But the neural impulses which would have moved the fingers of her original hand in that pattern did something completely different now, and a rectangular patch of skin on the inside of her forearm, perhaps two centimeters long and one and a half across, suddenly folded back. A small compartment in the artificial limb opened, and as she closed her fist, a thirty-round pulser magazine ejected itself.
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