How does Honor know so much?

tlb wrote:We know that Honor had the innate mathematical ability (see her calculating the heading to disable the courier boat in OBS); so it may have been a self-confidence issue (we certainly know that she had issues with self-confidence, it was a main reason that she did not report the attack in the shower), rather than anything fundamentally wrong with her intelligence.

Well, if there's ONE characteristic that we know the MAlign Alphas have is self-confidence, raised to the tenth power to go past the level of arrogance. This may all be environmental, but the fact that they've raised their own intelligence to hyper-rational levels would have made someone, sometime question the motives, and yet no one we've met lacks for self-confidence.

For all we know, Stephanie could have the Harrington anger (which only manifests itself when someone loved is hurt or killed) and that might be what enabled her to attack the Hexapuma that was about to kill the 'cat, despite her broken arm and other injuries.

I'm pretty sure she did. For example, she kept her distaste and rivalry for Trudy Franchitti for a long time.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Well, if there's ONE characteristic that we know the MAlign Alphas have is self-confidence, raised to the tenth power to go past the level of arrogance. This may all be environmental, but the fact that they've raised their own intelligence to hyper-rational levels would have made someone, sometime question the motives, and yet no one we've met lacks for self-confidence.

For all we know, Stephanie could have the Harrington anger (which only manifests itself when someone loved is hurt or killed) and that might be what enabled her to attack the Hexapuma that was about to kill the 'cat, despite her broken arm and other injuries.

I'm pretty sure she did. For example, she kept her distaste and rivalry for Trudy Franchitti for a long time.

There are several comments about Stephanie's temper in _A Beautiful Friendship_, such as in chapter 19 (Richard Harrington talking to Dr. Scott MacDallan, a red-head):

"I'm afraid a temper kind of like the one popular legend assigns to people with your hair color runs in the Harrington family..."

tlb wrote:For all we know, Stephanie could have the Harrington anger (which only manifests itself when someone loved is hurt or killed) and that might be what enabled her to attack the Hexapuma that was about to kill the 'cat, despite her broken arm and other injuries.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'm pretty sure she did. For example, she kept her distaste and rivalry for Trudy Franchitti for a long time.

Was that triggered by pain being caused to a loved one? If not, that sounds more like a garden variety of rivalry; rather than the all-encompassing Rage that we have seen in its full blown state with Honor in Field of Dishonor (a state that is similar to the "Rage" that was assigned as a curse ages ago to the Hradani in RFC's War God's Own series). Did it even rise to the level of Queen Elizabeth's ability to keep antagonisms alive?

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:First off, let's assume the Detweilers are correct that Honor is a lost Alpha line. Does that include the entire Meyerdahl line? If so, and Stephanie also could not regenerate, then there had been no improvements to the mods for (what is Stephanie from Honor?) two generations removed? Which means the MA was not making quick improvements.

Why does Stephanie test so high and Honor has issues? Since Honor is a later Alpha than Stephanie, and if tlb and ThinksMarkedly's take on constant improvement rings true, then Honor should at least match Stephanie in IQ. And Honor should be able to regenerate; assuming the MA has solved that problem.

Unless the Alpha mod didn't begin until Honor, or later than Stephanie. Even if that is true, Honor still should match, if not exceed, Stephanie in every category. Unless Honor is the point where side-effects began to show. I'm confused; where is my disconnect?

NO, if the Harringtons are a lost Alpha line, then the broken connection occurred BEFORE Stephanie; or when they moved to Sphinx. So Stephanie and Honor are the same genetic iteration, aside from whatever genetic drift occurred in the over 400 years that separate the two. Once the connection is lost, NO further improvements can be made.

Why are you thinking that Honor is not equal to Stephanie?

Something is still amiss. First off, I am not up to date whether the Detweiler's claim was that Honor, specifically, is a lost Alpha. Or the entire Harrington line. Which would have began with whom? As far back as we know.*

BTW, could the Harringtons be the missing H-line?

Again, if Stephanie and Honor came from the same genetic soup and they are up to three generations apart, then that supports my longstanding notion that it takes a long time to repair side effects. (Which makes sense because first said side-effects have to surface).

If Stephanie and Honor both fail to regenerate and they both have an uncontrollable temper, then the MA couldn't repair those side effects in three or more centuries. And that means that any change to the genes pauses any further advances until the current change proves itself; for at least three centuries. This is why I think the Inner Onion itself probably has unfiltered side-effects that slipped through the cracks. The Detweilers themselves are undoubtedly the purest of the species, letting the rest of the Onion act as the guinea pigs. But there is no way that even they are side-effect free. Nature simply doesn't work that way.

At any rate, the longest part of the Harrington line simply has to be before Stephanie. No? And this would be the part of the line the MA would have had the most access to. Yet, Stephanie and Honor still carry the anger and the inability to regenerate.

Moreover, screwing around with the brain represents the area of the most side-effects. Which means advances are slow and wrought with danger. I also think a lot of side-effects will slip through the cracks.

I concede that I am probably wrong to assume that Honor isn't as intelligent as Stephanie. Confidence is not necessarily a function of intelligence.

And I agree that when Honor did the math in her head to take out that DB, it proved she has no trouble with math, just trouble with anxiety when taking tests. A point I have often made myself.

* But if the entire Harrington line are lost Alphas - and the proof may be the prolific number of treecat bondings - then the fact that Honor's intelligence after all this time still greatly exceeds most of the current population proves my point that the MA has mined the IQ-mine dry and Honor is as much an Alpha as any modern Alpha.

And if Honor, specifically, is a lost Alpha line, then that would fuel an entire discussion.

Are all Meyerdahl-B mods Alphas?

cthia wrote:Are all Meyerdahl-B mods Alphas?

There is still the planet Meyerdahl that is filled with Meyerdahl genies; so that is too broad. If there is a lost Alpha line, then it was something added to the Meyerdahl-B genome, of which they then lost control.

Honor, by herself, cannot be the lost Alpha; because that implies her father is an Alpha that is NOT lost.

Honor and Stephanie CANNOT support your thesis that it takes time to repair anything; because they are both lost (if the Harringtons are a lost line). We do NOT know whether Stephanie can regenerate, just that it is something that occurs in a high percentage of all the Meyerdahl genies (so not part of some Alpha upgrade and which Honor's mother has pinpointed and so can fix presumably). Anyway Honor's Rage response is not necessarily a defect (see the War God's Own series).

Your point about "the MA has mined the IQ-mine dry" is most certainly NOT proved and whether or not Honor is part of a lost Alpha line already is the discussion.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Are all Meyerdahl-B mods Alphas?

There is still the planet Meyerdahl that is filled with Meyerdahl genies; so that is too broad. If there is a lost Alpha line, then it was something added to the Meyerdahl-B genome, of which they then lost control.

Honor, by herself, cannot be the lost Alpha; because that implies her father is an Alpha that is NOT lost.

Honor and Stephanie CANNOT support your thesis that it takes time to repair anything; because they are both lost (if the Harringtons are a lost line). We do NOT know whether Stephanie can regenerate, just that it is something that occurs in a high percentage of all the Meyerdahl genies (so not part of some Alpha upgrade and which Honor's mother has pinpointed and so can fix presumably). Anyway Honor's Rage response is not necessarily a defect (see the War God's Own series).

Your point about "the MA has mined the IQ-mine dry" is most certainly NOT proved and whether or not Honor is part of a lost Alpha line already is the discussion.

But the B-mods are the mods with the increased IQ.

cthia wrote:Are all Meyerdahl-B mods Alphas?

tlb wrote:There is still the planet Meyerdahl that is filled with Meyerdahl genies; so that is too broad. If there is a lost Alpha line, then it was something added to the Meyerdahl-B genome, of which they then lost control.

Honor, by herself, cannot be the lost Alpha; because that implies her father is an Alpha that is NOT lost.

Honor and Stephanie CANNOT support your thesis that it takes time to repair anything; because they are both lost (if the Harringtons are a lost line). We do NOT know whether Stephanie can regenerate, just that it is something that occurs in a high percentage of all the Meyerdahl genies (so not part of some Alpha upgrade and which Honor's mother has pinpointed and so can fix presumably). Anyway Honor's Rage response is not necessarily a defect (see the War God's Own series).

Your point about "the MA has mined the IQ-mine dry" is most certainly NOT proved and whether or not Honor is part of a lost Alpha line already is the discussion.

cthia wrote:But the B-mods are the mods with the increased IQ.

And that is generally known and has been true since the beginning of the Meyerdahl modifications, which predate the war that created the prejudice against genies (so predate the creation of Mesa). All that can be said is that if the Malign wanted to add on to an existing genome, then it is likely that they would pick an instance that already had an intelligence boost.

cthia wrote:Again, if Stephanie and Honor came from the same genetic soup and they are up to three generations apart, then that supports my longstanding notion that it takes a long time to repair side effects. (Which makes sense because first said side-effects have to surface).

If Stephanie and Honor both fail to regenerate and they both have an uncontrollable temper, then the MA couldn't repair those side effects in three or more centuries. And that means that any change to the genes pauses any further advances until the current change proves itself; for at least three centuries. This is why I think the Inner Onion itself probably has unfiltered side-effects that slipped through the cracks. The Detweilers themselves are undoubtedly the purest of the species, letting the rest of the Onion act as the guinea pigs. But there is no way that even they are side-effect free. Nature simply doesn't work that way.

Um, I'd say they're far more than 3 generations apart. They were born 352 years from each other (1507 PD and 1859 PD); that's more like 14 generations apart. (Yes, Prolong may end up spreading the generations longs than we've seen so far; but Prolong is only about 100 years old and hasn't seemed to significantly delay when most people have their first kids -- probably because society hasn't fully acclimatized to it yet)

And I don't see how we could draw any conclusions from a just a lost Alpha line about how quickly the MAlign can fix genetic flaws. It seems to me that once the line is "lost", and no longer part of the onion, the MAlign would no longer have access to perform genetic tinkering for each new generation. Basically, even if the MAlign was still tabs on that lost branch's descendants, they'd be "orphaned" and no longer receiving genetic scans or "patches" from the MAlign. IOW whatever issues their line has as of it becoming lost would thereafter be subject to only normal genetic effects from reproduction, or of non-MAlign genetic therapy (should a given members opt to have that done).

cthia wrote:Are all Meyerdahl-B mods Alphas?

If any had signed on to the Alignment (back in Leonard Detweiler day), yes. Whether they stayed in the Alignment or had drifted away like the Harrington's is a different question.

I wish to point out that there is NO evidence that the Harringtons of Sphynx inherited any Alignment gene-mods. IMHO, Allison would have noticed that when she looked. AFAICT, the Meyerdahl-B mods are a well documented set (that predate Earth's Final War, let alone the birth of Leonard Detweiler).