-SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:The torture videos from Torch weren't Ballroom, they were escaped slaves. Unless you mean the selfies made by the slavers.

Sure, which is why nobody ever talks about the German extermination camps. Because it was the Nazi camps and we all know the Germans would never do that other then in allied propaganda.

The RF has now shown up on the SLN's radar. Without going back to look for that in UH, that is at least a source of concern - it seemed to be for the SLN analyst, it surely should be to the GA (at least Manticorain ONI).
Thats 12 systems that have -quietly- banded together- and none of this has (yet been reported in a book or mentioned) from the GA. How did that happen so quickly?
Ok, the Maya Sector was awfull quiet but that was also highly organized and SO FAR Manticore doesn't seem to think there are any Alignment problems there.


As far as reaction Outside the Belt, that would be very interesting, particularly since that broadcast of Honor's was wide open, in-clear and going to be picked up by every news service and talk-site. It was designed that way- right downto over-riding broadcasts.
She makes it abundently clear that what she and the GA are visiting on Sol System is EXACTLY what the SL has already inflicted (or tried to inflict) on at least 5 systems EXCEPT that the GA has not inflicted deliverate civilian casualties. Unlike Buccaneer and Partan Shot, the damage has been limited to MILITARY vessels, instilations and fabrication.

It is also clear- as we see Kingsford and several other SLN Admirals (and so many other military) acknowledging both at Sol and elsewhere- where Buccaneer has been attempted- that it the GA could have done this AT ANY TIME. It is now been stated (by Honor but also by various in the SLN) that the ONLY reason this wasn't done earlier is becaust the GA was trying to be both reasonable and approch the resolution diplomatically.

So, while there will still be all sorts of present and former citizens of the SL that will burn with a desire for revenge, it is probable that the majority of people in leaderships positions or just citizens, will understand this for what it was: a LIMITED strike.

[there will be the records of Hypatia System and the RMN of the SLN fleet commander ordering the deliberate fireing on of the crippled SEM ships AND ordering the firing on by the SLN ships of the INDIVIDUAL RMN LIFE PODS. Gee, that is going to read really well. Particularly since just Manticore has probably in excess of a SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND SLN personal as POWs when they could have just executed the as pirates - it was, after all multiple attacks of fleet sized units on SEM systems including Home System- at which point it became a declaired war but Fillerta was warned }

The piece of returning ownership of property in the Protectorates to local control was a nice touch. How that gets handled for the original owners and/or heirs etc would be compilcated but interesting.

I really do think the GA should invest Yuldin System (using Honors demand for ALL Technodyne materials, hardcopy reports etc as the basis) and go after the mother load of Technodyne R&D/ fabrication, records etc. The shipping orders and general accounting will be interesting. Just think, they could drag all sorts of fabrication back to Manticore, Grayson, even give some to the systems that were trashed by Buccaneer.
The only real question is does the GA and Manticore/Haven/Beowulf/Grayson have enough engineers/accountants (particularly the forensic type) and riggers to take all of the Technodyne stuff apart for analysis. (moving it could be intersting but there is all the idle Manticoraian shipping)

Brigade XO wrote:The RF has now shown up on the SLN's radar. Without going back to look for that in UH, that is at least a source of concern - it seemed to be for the SLN analyst, it surely should be to the GA (at least Manticorain ONI).
Thats 12 systems that have -quietly- banded together- and none of this has (yet been reported in a book or mentioned) from the GA. How did that happen so quickly?
Ok, the Maya Sector was awfull quiet but that was also highly organized and SO FAR Manticore doesn't seem to think there are any Alignment problems there.


As far as reaction Outside the Belt, that would be very interesting, particularly since that broadcast of Honor's was wide open, in-clear and going to be picked up by every news service and talk-site. It was designed that way- right downto over-riding broadcasts.
She makes it abundently clear that what she and the GA are visiting on Sol System is EXACTLY what the SL has already inflicted (or tried to inflict) on at least 5 systems EXCEPT that the GA has not inflicted deliverate civilian casualties. Unlike Buccaneer and Partan Shot, the damage has been limited to MILITARY vessels, instilations and fabrication.

It is also clear- as we see Kingsford and several other SLN Admirals (and so many other military) acknowledging both at Sol and elsewhere- where Buccaneer has been attempted- that it the GA could have done this AT ANY TIME. It is now been stated (by Honor but also by various in the SLN) that the ONLY reason this wasn't done earlier is becaust the GA was trying to be both reasonable and approch the resolution diplomatically.

So, while there will still be all sorts of present and former citizens of the SL that will burn with a desire for revenge, it is probable that the majority of people in leaderships positions or just citizens, will understand this for what it was: a LIMITED strike.

[there will be the records of Hypatia System and the RMN of the SLN fleet commander ordering the deliberate fireing on of the crippled SEM ships AND ordering the firing on by the SLN ships of the INDIVIDUAL RMN LIFE PODS. Gee, that is going to read really well. Particularly since just Manticore has probably in excess of a SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND SLN personal as POWs when they could have just executed the as pirates - it was, after all multiple attacks of fleet sized units on SEM systems including Home System- at which point it became a declaired war but Fillerta was warned }

The piece of returning ownership of property in the Protectorates to local control was a nice touch. How that gets handled for the original owners and/or heirs etc would be compilcated but interesting.

I really do think the GA should invest Yuldin System (using Honors demand for ALL Technodyne materials, hardcopy reports etc as the basis) and go after the mother load of Technodyne R&D/ fabrication, records etc. The shipping orders and general accounting will be interesting. Just think, they could drag all sorts of fabrication back to Manticore, Grayson, even give some to the systems that were trashed by Buccaneer.
The only real question is does the GA and Manticore/Haven/Beowulf/Grayson have enough engineers/accountants (particularly the forensic type) and riggers to take all of the Technodyne stuff apart for analysis. (moving it could be intersting but there is all the idle Manticoraian shipping)

The RF is now onthe SL's radar as in OMG Maya has broken away with its 9 planets; and BTW so have another 12 planets calling themselves the Renaissance Factor. Yep that's a significant blip. Mention en passant is not a particularly bothersome seeming thing. At this point I doubt anyone in the Honorverse has taken more than a cursory notice of it.

And, no, the looting and pillaging shall not begin. We will not start looting corporations in the name of "spoils of war". Those planets ravaged by Operation Buccaneer can file claims for damages/reparations in the Courts of the SL 2.0. Lets try to be civilized here (well in the verse, not on the board).

pappilon wrote:And, no, the looting and pillaging shall not begin. We will not start looting corporations in the name of "spoils of war". Those planets ravaged by Operation Buccaneer can file claims for damages/reparations in the Courts of the SL 2.0. Lets try to be civilized here (well in the verse, not on the board).

.


Well, the SL is essentialy bankrupt.

Oh, it has (or had ) a lot of assets in the form of SLN ships and places, and there has got to be a lot of stuff hanging around but that isn't going to help that much. Note that a in the Protectorates, a lot of the assests are being required to be handed back to the original owners (or however that works out of taking them away from the Transtellars and non-local inhabitants). The cash flows from all of that- which supported OFS and all the fees to the SL will be gone. Wormhole transit fees- if the wormholes don't belong to SL members the fees will stay local.

The SL has truly massive amount of debt run up and that doesn't count the recent war fighting. The government has been crashing financially for a few years now. Then there is all that paper (government bonds and notes to finance the buiding program in Maya etc) which is still accrewing interest even if the source the Mandarins was anticipating for the paymetn of the Maya notes has now vanished - Silly Mandarins, they organized that as SL debt not Maya debt, so guess who is supposed to pay the interest and repay the capital (hint- NOT Maya).
The SL now has a vast number of SLN personal plus OFS (and Gendarmaire) and buracratic staff who no longer have jobs and there is no way they are going to be able to keep all of them on payroll. You have to wonder what the pension system is looking like these days.

While individual systems who are SL members may still have both viable economies and interstellar trade (no thanks to the Mandarins) how the payments for anything is going to be handles is a very open question. Solarian Credits......well, just how good is a Solarian Credit?

Did you notice that NOTHING was said about Manticore (and it was ONLY Manticore) either releasing the controls on the wormholes taken in Lacoon II or subsequent activity or alowing SL flagged shipping to use any of the Junction termini.

How long till Manticore recinds or modifies the madates of Lacoon I to let Manticore flagged merchants return to SL space?
How long till at least Manticore, perhaps in conjunction with Haven, can set up commerce protection patrols in the areas which are going be free of SLN presence and start developing (not if, going to) piracy and other problems?

This goes on and on. Bring suite against the SL for damages/reparations in what courts? Your own? I really don't think the GA is going to weigh in on helping with this, certainly not with jurisdiction. The members/former members who were hit with Operation Buccaneer perhaps, the nurtural systems devistated by it, not so good.
Again, the SL is BANKRUPT. On the other hand, the SL did not formaly declare war and there is the whole questionable legal situation of attacking a League member for excercising an existing ability to freely leave the League (the League had NOT resolved that point), let alone attack non-members.

Of course, thanks to Honor, the League can't even give you 40 or 50 SLN SDs (even at scrap value) since they don't have a lot of them left.

Problems, problems...oh my:)

Brigade XO wrote:I really do think the GA should invest Yuldin System (using Honors demand for ALL Technodyne materials, hardcopy reports etc as the basis) and go after the mother load of Technodyne R&D/ fabrication, records etc. The shipping orders and general accounting will be interesting. Just think, they could drag all sorts of fabrication back to Manticore, Grayson, even give some to the systems that were trashed by Buccaneer.
The only real question is does the GA and Manticore/Haven/Beowulf/Grayson have enough engineers/accountants (particularly the forensic type) and riggers to take all of the Technodyne stuff apart for analysis. (moving it could be intersting but there is all the idle Manticoraian shipping)

Yup, they should go after them. While they obviously won't get Darius or any live MAlign agents simply sweeping the place will be a substantial setback to SLN military development--much, if not all of the new "Solarian" tech really came from the MAlign.

Brigade XO wrote: Well, the SL is essentialy bankrupt.

Oh, it has (or had ) a lot of assets in the form of SLN ships and places, and there has got to be a lot of stuff hanging around but that isn't going to help that much. Note that a in the Protectorates, a lot of the assests are being required to be handed back to the original owners (or however that works out of taking them away from the Transtellars and non-local inhabitants). The cash flows from all of that- which supported OFS and all the fees to the SL will be gone. Wormhole transit fees- if the wormholes don't belong to SL members the fees will stay local.

The SL has truly massive amount of debt run up and that doesn't count the recent war fighting. The government has been crashing financially for a few years now. Then there is all that paper (government bonds and notes to finance the buiding program in Maya etc) which is still accrewing interest even if the source the Mandarins was anticipating for the paymetn of the Maya notes has now vanished - Silly Mandarins, they organized that as SL debt not Maya debt, so guess who is supposed to pay the interest and repay the capital (hint- NOT Maya).
The SL now has a vast number of SLN personal plus OFS (and Gendarmaire) and buracratic staff who no longer have jobs and there is no way they are going to be able to keep all of them on payroll. You have to wonder what the pension system is looking like these days.

While individual systems who are SL members may still have both viable economies and interstellar trade (no thanks to the Mandarins) how the payments for anything is going to be handles is a very open question. Solarian Credits......well, just how good is a Solarian Credit?

I can only point to the Former 13 British Colonies operating under The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union after Shays' Rebellion. The current government was losing its ability to pay the interest on its war bonds so the merchants of Boston that held the bulk of the paper forced the issue and demanded whatever new government evolved was also responsible for the debts of the previous one.

Yes the Federal government has no legal executive branch, no power of taxation, currently, but that was ->| |<- that close to being a reality. I can only assume the ultra rich of the 44th and a half century are no more naive than their forebears of the 18th one.

Brigade XO wrote: Did you notice that NOTHING was said about Manticore (and it was ONLY Manticore) either releasing the controls on the wormholes taken in Lacoon II or subsequent activity or alowing SL flagged shipping to use any of the Junction termini.

Just one Kolokainos ship bound for Beowulf, that I know of. Oh wait that was the wormhole junction Michelle seized that was not part of Lacoon 2.

Brigade XO wrote: How long till Manticore recinds or modifies the madates of Lacoon I to let Manticore flagged merchants return to SL space?
How long till at least Manticore, perhaps in conjunction with Haven, can set up commerce protection patrols in the areas which are going be free of SLN presence and start developing (not if, going to) piracy and other problems?

This goes on and on. Bring suite against the SL for damages/reparations in what courts? Your own? I really don't think the GA is going to weigh in on helping with this, certainly not with jurisdiction. The members/former members who were hit with Operation Buccaneer perhaps, the nurtural systems devistated by it, not so good.
Again, the SL is BANKRUPT. On the other hand, the SL did not formaly declare war and there is the whole questionable legal situation of attacking a League member for excercising an existing ability to freely leave the League (the League had NOT resolved that point), let alone attack non-members.

Of course, thanks to Honor, the League can't even give you 40 or 50 SLN SDs (even at scrap value) since they don't have a lot of them left.

Problems, problems...oh my:)

It's not that the SL (what remains after the dust settles more or less in the next couple of years) won't find ways, it's just that it's going to be complicated.
One of the things the US Government did after the ratification of the Constitution was to end up exchanging US debt for the various State debts from the Revolution. Some of that was tied to the conversations/negotiations/deals to get the support for ratification of the Constitution.
Yeah, politics.
Not just picking up the debts for materials and logistics, but for back pay owed by the States to the soldiers they fielded in both the State Regiments and in the Continental Regiments. Part of that was paid- to the soldiers- not in money but in land grants. Now, some people took those grants and went out to both take up the land and new farms - or move there and speculate in the land, but many sold the grants to land speculators (at discounted rates) and just used the money at home. The better known parts of that process were things like the Ohio Company which did settle a lot of people- many of them veterans- in what is now Ohio.

Writing a new Constitution for the League is going to probably include some taxing component. There will continue to be "fees" at the League level for income but there will be all manner of care taken to avoid the problem created with what OFS evolved into and try to stomp out the corruption and the way it was done.

We shall see.

Brigade XO wrote:It's not that the SL (what remains after the dust settles more or less in the next couple of years) won't find ways, it's just that it's going to be complicated.
One of the things the US Government did after the ratification of the Constitution was to end up exchanging US debt for the various State debts from the Revolution. Some of that was tied to the conversations/negotiations/deals to get the support for ratification of the Constitution.
Yeah, politics.
Not just picking up the debts for materials and logistics, but for back pay owed by the States to the soldiers they fielded in both the State Regiments and in the Continental Regiments. Part of that was paid- to the soldiers- not in money but in land grants. Now, some people took those grants and went out to both take up the land and new farms - or move there and speculate in the land, but many sold the grants to land speculators (at discounted rates) and just used the money at home. The better known parts of that process were things like the Ohio Company which did settle a lot of people- many of them veterans- in what is now Ohio.

Writing a new Constitution for the League is going to probably include some taxing component. There will continue to be "fees" at the League level for income but there will be all manner of care taken to avoid the problem created with what OFS evolved into and try to stomp out the corruption and the way it was done.

We shall see.

Yeah, the willingness to implement a taxing component is really the iron clad test of whether or not they really want a League. If they are unwilling to pay for services rendered, then the League should go quietly into the night.

Don

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n7axw wrote:Yeah, the willingness to implement a taxing component is really the iron clad test of whether or not they really want a League. If they are unwilling to pay for services rendered, then the League should go quietly into the night.

Don

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Was the same issue converting from the Articles of Confederation to the Constitution. The National government started out taxing the states. Wasn't until WWIish (1913) that individuals became subject to federal taxation.

Its always messy, and like the EU no state that has been independent for any while wants to cede its power to some other government. Question remains, with 8th fleet being the battle armor fist in the leather glove, can they not pass something? Can they pass articles of dissolution, everybody go their own way and Honor sign off on it? IIRC Honor says pass something, anything, or I start blowing up orbital infrastructures.

I suppose reasonable persons can reasonably argue ... Sounds like a dangerous game.

pappilon wrote:Was the same issue converting from the Articles of Confederation to the Constitution. The National government started out taxing the states. Wasn't until WWIish (1913) that individuals became subject to federal taxation.

Its always messy, and like the EU no state that has been independent for any while wants to cede its power to some other government. Question remains, with 8th fleet being the battle armor fist in the leather glove, can they not pass something? Can they pass articles of dissolution, everybody go their own way and Honor sign off on it? IIRC Honor says pass something, anything, or I start blowing up orbital infrastructures.

I suppose reasonable persons can reasonably argue ... Sounds like a dangerous game.

On the flip side nobody from the GA wants the League's (maybe former) core worlds unleashed from any and all moral restraints and firmly placed on the path of revenge.

Particularly not with MAlgin still lurking in the shadows, ready to exploit any vulnerabilities.

Easing out the pressure and letting the various factions in the League club themselves trying to figure out a new way of doing things is a lot better or at least safer from a GA perspective.