SLN Ship improvement

Dauntless wrote:as i recall we know very little about how many reactors larger ships have and most of that was learned early.

for example we know that CA fearless had 3 though that was seen excessive and overly cautious as she could move and fight on just one.

Nike (reliant class) had 3 and used the power from 2 of those to move and fight with the third as the backup.

aside from a discussion in EoV about how great the benefits of fission were for a LAC i don't believe the size/number of reactors a ship has ever come up again.

From the semi-canonical Jayne's and SITS (Which HoS was built from), The 4 SD/DNs we have data on, all have 5 Reactors. The Triumphant BB has 4, all BCs and larger CAs have 3, and all DDs - small CAs have 2. The LACS, DBs and the 1 FG we have seen have only 1 reactor, as do most pirate designs seen.

The smallest classic grav pinched fusion reactor is supposedly powerful enough to run a CL all by itself. But the compensator, reactor, and beta nodes take up most of the mass of a ~10,000 ton LAC.

Pretty much, those LACs were the smallest viable military platform you could field with the cheapest, yet effective, weapons. If you spent any more on them, you approached the cost of an all up Frigate or Destroyer, so it made no sense (for most navies) to build a LAC as anything more than a minimal platform.

kzt wrote:No, the vague hand waving argument we got was that the LACs needed more power than a small craft laser fusion reactor and hence had to go to the next size up, which was the grav destroyer sized reactor. So they have a LOT of power for their size (with a reactor that can run a >60,000 ton DD), what David said was their operating duration was very limited. Which makes no sense (200 liters of hydrogen has more energy in it that 20,000 tons of plutonium) but whatever, the limiting issue for old lacs was fuel and space. And terrible node design, not sure why.

David's comments on plasma "power" have made me think on this a bit lately. Since It is fusion plasma that powers everything, the power systems of a starship are closer to boilers than to known fusion systems. A huge volume of hydrogen is constantly being brought to fusion than piped throughout the ship to power the various components. Capacitors hold "compressed" plasma to give to different systems, and a ready supply of fresh hydrogen is required to continuously top off the system. While we know only a few kilogram may be needed to run a fusion reactor - in the Honorverse, tons of fusing plasma and constantly being circulating throughout the ship.

So we have to throw out our vision of Fusion, and replace it with the Boiler systems used in ships around the turn of the century. Which makes sense, given the naval theme of the Honorverse.

Like wise, the reason for multiple reactors - ships had multiple - dozens even of boilers. Yes, they scaled, but not enough, and you needed multiple redundancies if one was destroyed or damaged.

Any SL Member system that begins looking to break away from the League is going to need some manner of protection. If the League really crashes fast, one option is to have a local group of SLN ships negotiate to become their SDF. Not perfect and certainly with a risk that a less than honest unit commander might just take over control as well as "defend" the system. That scales up for alliances of various systems.
Same for non-SL member who want protection and have little more than customs boats or a couple of DDs or a CL for local piracy patrols as they may have been outside "normal" Battle Fleet patroling (if Battle Fleet did anti-piracy patrols even as marketing wether it was actualy something they were doing) FF should have been able to supress pirates- unless they were working with them though that might be more OFS Governors and managers who were keeping FF out of the way.

So, you want to build your on SDF or little navy. To fight who? Pirates? Against less that full up warships (SL versions or other local equivalents) you really don't need a lot more than current SLN (preferably FF versions) and get compentnet leadership and crews. Finding said crews and leaders probably is going to take you into the range of current or former SLN (again, preferably FF) people who will hire on. For local citizenship, apropriate pay and support.
Building new ships? Well, not likely the GA, Erwhon or even the Aldermani is going to sell you anything current- in a "Manti Lite" format that you can use (if they would sell it to you) because you would also have to buy all the additonal tech and probably at least intialy equipment and manufacturing to make all those fun things that make Manticore, Haven and now Aldermani ships so much better than anything elce for the time being.
Then there is the idea of building from a modern (hummm- that doesn't sound right) SLN type equipment plans from somebody like Technodyne who is WAY TOO BUSY doing stuff for SLN etc) and add "improvements". Right after you convert or build out the existing shipbuilding or at least existing orbital manufactuing your system has to make such ships. Purchase design to finished 1st ship ready for trials time is ???? What is going to keep any one of several wolves from your door in the interim?

Unless you are an OFS Governor now stranded beyond soon to be redrawn sphears of influence or a OFS Client System Government, you are not likely to be facing any GA warships as problems. That the GA might show up really won't be so much a problem unless you are in the middle of an uprising of your local population. For the time being, with no active rebellion in an OFS client system, the GA will PROBABLY be content with destroying or capturing any SLN ships in system and then leaving. Also at this point, they may also leave most of the SLN crew behind in the system- stranded for a while- though they may take way as POW any people they think might be able to improve the capability of the SLN- like officers and enlisted that show ability to think, make effective use of the inadequate equpment or show crativity in fighting their sips. They don't want to take over the systems, they just want to elimiate the SLNs ability to do any more damage.

The RF is probably going to keep a low profile and fight like tigers (each on their own) to keep the surviving SLN and anybody elces forces from encroching on their systems. They will have to play the waiting game a bit longer to truly look like they rise to help neighbors and form their several small alliances against the fall of darkness.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Sigs wrote:LAC's stop enemy missiles, my missile pods shoot at the enemy and whatever warships I do have in my inventory stay behind the LAC's anti-missile shield. The idea would be to prevent someone from destroying what few warships you might have and your industry while you overwhelm them with as many missiles as you can. You have to make the best choice, it might be the best of bad options but it lets you start from somewhere.
[snip]
If I negate my enemy's missile advantage if he has one e would have to close with and destroy my units in energy range or withdraw. A Scientist-Class SD is more than a match for any GA warship in energy Range.

Hmm, lets run some numbers. A Katana, which carries a loadout of entirely CM sized missiles, shoots itself dry again pod salvos after 3-4 salvos.

Let's grant that your SDF's LACs can last around half as long (given they've got a massive volume eating fusion plant) so say 2 salvos, and that each LAC can stop 1 pod's worth of missiles per salvo. That's being quite generous given their CMs have half the range of the RMN's Mk31s; but let's go with it.

Given that, to negate a single Medusa-class SD(P)'s missile advantage you'd need.
492 pods / 6 pods per salvo = 82 salvos
You need 6 LACs per salvo.
And since they shoot themselves dry after 2 salvos you need 82/2= 41 times that to last as long as the SD(P)
So 246 LACs per SD(P)!

And that's if you use the old SD(P). If you want to defend against an Invictus, even ignoring that it's harder to stop the FTL controlled Apollo missiles it fires, you have to deal with 1074 pods. So given the exact same constraints you need:
537 LACs per SD(P)!

That's a pretty ludicrous number given that SD(P)s usually come in numbers. (And that's pretty much best possible case for your antimissile LACs because it assumes you let them sit there unmolested to trim down the incoming fire)

This may be the best some SDFs can do, short term, but it's almost whistling in the dark...

IF you are at war with a member of the GA. With the current strength numbers there is little that any of the core worlds can do individually or together to make a dent. Between them the GA navies have a total of approximately 800-100 SD(P)'s and probably close 500 SD's. IF they wanted you gone you would be gone.

Now when someone else get's SD(P)'s that changes the equation. If they don't have all the other advantages then it would be possible for a nation to stop significant numbers of missiles to force the enemy to disengage or close to energy range especially if they don't have the numbers to regret, regroup on increase the attack fleet by 20 times. But when the enemy has 800-1,000 SD(P)'s and most likely another 600+SD(P)'s coming up soon it won't really matter much.


The Goal here is to make SLN ships more effective against any threat other than the GA simply because once you factor in the numbers any victory you gain is only temporary. Beating back 20 SD(P)'s means that the GA will send 200 SD(P)'s to eat you for lunch.

So either you put the ex-SLN ships in yards to upgrade them or you find a way to add something to the mix to make them more survivable. The way is a missile defence shield. Building LAC's in the 10,000 to 30,000 tons range backed by Frigates in the 50-80,000 ton range and then add Destroyers in the 120,000- 200,000 range it changes the equation. If you remove anything that is offensive armament and focus on PD energy weapons and CMs you get an effective unit for a very narrow task. Instead of missiles in each broadside you have counter missiles and PD clusters.

Again, against the GA it would be next to impossible to win a second battle even if you manage a first because they have technological advantage AND a numerical advantage.

n7axw wrote:
One choice would be to develop yard space to build their own navy. What makes this choice difficult is not only expense, but the political will to make it happen once the locals realize the cost. Then there is the tech issue. Where you are starting out from is pouring dollars into tech that has already been demonstrated to be inferior. Yes, you can develop your own R&D. But that takes years to develop and translate into construction, years you might not have. So where do you put your dollars?

The police will to make it happen might be lacking in a lot of core systems until they realize that the mighty SLN is no longer there to protect them. The first core system to get conquered by someone or attacked by pirates will serve as a good example of why they should build up their capabilities and do so with extreme haste.

I agree that obviously you need to start somewhere and you do need the yards and to start developing the tech. But maybe you better not put all of your defense dollars in that basket. It might be wise to talk to someone, say, the GA, to see if help or even an alliance partner might be available to bootstrap your efforts the way Manticore did for Grayson and Marsh.

The GA would have to trust a system before they start giving it assistance to build up it's yards in any meaningful way. You might get what amount to obsolete weapons but ultimately it will be a long time before the GA gives many core systems first rate weapons. Besides, getting your own shipyards and R&D gives you the advantage on not having to depend on anyone else.

I would also point out that the Harrington plan as spelled out in MOH anticipates exactly this as securing its own security involves making friends of the successor states by fair economic agreements, cultural and educational exchanges, and yes, defensive treaties.

And they cannot make too many defensive treaties nor can they be counted on to provide the majority of the fleet units in every treaty. Imagine making a treaty with 500 successor states, from single system states to larger multi system states. And the GA will have to deploy fleet units in every single war it has a defence treaty with one or both combatants. They have to maintain defences for their own nations plus they will have hundreds or thousands of SD(P)'s in dozens or even hundreds of hotspots in the galaxy fighting many wars. It would be hard to convince the GA's tax payers to fund 5,000+ SD(P)'s and 10's of thousands of lighter combatants to protect the rest of the galaxy, they will start to demand each system pay a portion for it's defence and where do you think that gets them? With a whole bunch of protectorates.

Much of the world of our own time is not in a position to defend itself from the larger, more powerful nations. Are they at risk of conquest and exploitation? Yep. But they continue to exist in the shelter of the great powers and the hope that they could give any invader such a headache that conquest turns out not to be worth the effort.

Don

Yeah but the big difference is that most of the core worlds and many in the shell will fall in the heavily industrialized and rather wealthy systems which may not really be too comfortable being someone else protectorate.

quite possibly a cat wrote:The RF doesn't sound like its going to be that well prepared or ahead of the game. They aren't like the Maya sector where they are actively running major deceptions and laying the ground work for breaking away. I don't think every RF member even has a real SDF. I don't think any of the RF has actually started the secession process like Beowulf or some of its nearby systems. Plus the goal of the RF factor is to draw other systems into their orbit so a lot of the RF factor will be totally unprepared.

Which means they will be in the same boat as everyone. Their end game probably measures in decades rather than months.

The RF isn't going to be perfect. They probably won't be too friendly either. Pragmatic maybe, open-minded maybe, but probably a heck of a lot less friendly than Maya, Beowulf or systems near to Beowulf.

Even if Manticore is hyper-vigilant they'll just get a bunch of false positives and they'll tick off anyone who could be an actual friend. (Such as Maya.)

But that also means that the RF will not be there as a major threat and/or base of support to buy ships and weapons from nor to get training from. They will be like everyone else with the ultimate goal of uniting as one and getting some more systems together. If I remember correctly their plan was to form essentially a third nation that would stand between Haven and the League before they had to reassess who the real threat was. This means that they don't plan to force anyone that quickly nor do they plan on rebuilding the League in their image just yet...if they have realistic plans to begin with.

The American AA Crusiers of WW II were optimized for anti-aircraft defence after the lessons learned early in the way aircraft were a major if not the major problem for most vessels. That was primarily in defence of things like carriers and their battle groups. It was a solution, stop aircraft first at almost any cost though you still have to worry about the other "normal" dangers in naval warfare.

The later DDs and were mostly twin 38/5in dual purpose turret arrangements for the same reason. They could be used for anti-ship work plus shore bombardment and, most critical, anti-aircraft work. They had electronic fire control and gun directions (though could and did go to manual/local override when they had to such as having taken damage to keep fireing to suvive.

SLN and any other non-GA production of LACs for anti-missile defence is going to be hindered by shortfalls in tactical control of said defence and the ranges they are going to have to work with. That doesn't mean they can't do better than current SLN version LACs, it just means that they are going to have to build and crew a lot more of them and try and get them in place to be usefull in enough numbers and with enough weapons and fire control to let the SLN (or any other navy) get close enough to effectivly engage the GA.

The point is that you can design and build effective defence/offence platforms if you 1) understand the needs of the missions (always multiple missions), train for it, have enough tactical sensors that are going to give you the information you need and are willing to put your units into harms way (understanding that your ARE going to lose a lot of people and ships) to keep the enemy from getting through to do accomplish their mission.

Can the SLN and, shortly, the numbers of Former SL member systems and various indedpent systems that join together for mutual defence and support come up with enough improvements to, primarily, beat off such former SLN and other forces (pirates, warlording systems) to keep themselves safe? So far it is not the GA and it's treaty partners that the core worlds and out into the Verge have to worry about. Its everybody else who used to be under the nominal protection of the SLN/OFS who is going to want to carve out a larger (than their own system) of territory to control at the expence of neighbors.



(An example of a DD in this role was the USS Laffey (DD 724). After a convoy tasking across the North Atlantic they were part of the in-shore fire support of the landings at Normandy. That lasted until the fighting moved beyond the range of the 5" guns but being able to put 6 rounds in a volley on-target in France helped a lot.
Shifted to the Pacific they were, on 16Apr1945 off Okinawa it had rotate out to raidar picket station 1 on the direct line of flight for the Japanese air attacks, primarily kamikaze missions. They were targeted by at least 22 aircraft, were hit six times by kamakaze and, with the assistence of Navy and Marine fighters shot down the rest. They survived, though a lot of the crew were killed or wounded but the ship didn't sink and was ultimatly repaired. When I was student teaching, one of the regular teaching staff had been gun captain of the # 3 turret.
If you want a more detailed account that the Wikipedia recap, read "Hell from the Heavens". )

Brigade XO wrote:
SLN and any other non-GA production of LACs for anti-missile defence is going to be hindered by shortfalls in tactical control of said defence and the ranges they are going to have to work with. That doesn't mean they can't do better than current SLN version LACs, it just means that they are going to have to build and crew a lot more of them and try and get them in place to be usefull in enough numbers and with enough weapons and fire control to let the SLN (or any other navy) get close enough to effectivly engage the GA.

The idea is to use a brute force approach rather than something more intelligent if you will simply because they don't have the advantage of the more intelligent option at the moment and will likely not have them for a few years in the future.

Yes, they will have to build, crew, supply and maintain a lot more LAC's and other light combatants but this is something that has to be done. Plus we are talking about adding incremental technological advancements with the addition of research and field experience. What they get out of the whole effort? They jump start their fleet, they get the infrastructure capable of supporting the expanding fleet and most important of all is the manpower they get to train. The core worlds have no options, they need to find weapons from somewhere, find someone to protect them or accept that they will be the target of every pirate, raider and every person with a fleet and desire to build an empire.

The point is that you can design and build effective defence/offence platforms if you 1) understand the needs of the missions (always multiple missions), train for it, have enough tactical sensors that are going to give you the information you need and are willing to put your units into harms way (understanding that your ARE going to lose a lot of people and ships) to keep the enemy from getting through to do accomplish their mission.

Yes, and when push comes to shove the military is there to do that. There are numerous examples where a military formation is used to slow down an enemy with horrendous cost to it's servicemen, we have seen examples of Manticoran, San Martin, Grayson and Havenite crew's sailing into their deaths willingly to buy someone a little more time, to damage an enemy a little more in order to give the next wave a little edge or buy the evacuation ships some time to get to Manticore. If there is courage in those nations and people willing to die to protect their nations why does everyone assume that the former League members are different? They might not have the same level of loyalty and dedication to the League but to their home systems? I have no doubt that the majority can command similar devotion from their population.

Can the SLN and, shortly, the numbers of Former SL member systems and various indedpent systems that join together for mutual defence and support come up with enough improvements to, primarily, beat off such former SLN and other forces (pirates, warlording systems) to keep themselves safe? So far it is not the GA and it's treaty partners that the core worlds and out into the Verge have to worry about. Its everybody else who used to be under the nominal protection of the SLN/OFS who is going to want to carve out a larger (than their own system) of territory to control at the expence of neighbors.

Everyone would be starting with the same handicap and in this case whoever is willing to put in the most effort, money and resources into building their defences has the best chance to remain free and prosperous. Those not willing or able will quickly be spending the same amount of money and resources building up someone else empire.