Last use for SL SD captured

Kytheros wrote:IIRC, the implication was that Darius was better than nearly anywhere else, including much of the Solarian League, but that Manticore was better still, and arguably the best anywhere in known space, and that good for a variety of reasons, a number of which were things that Darius could not implement under the MAlign.

The MA found a way to vault to the top. By killing everyone who was involved with construction in Manticore.

kzt wrote:

Kytheros wrote:IIRC, the implication was that Darius was better than nearly anywhere else, including much of the Solarian League, but that Manticore was better still, and arguably the best anywhere in known space, and that good for a variety of reasons, a number of which were things that Darius could not implement under the MAlign.

The MA found a way to vault to the top. By killing everyone who was involved with construction in Manticore.

Well, yes, but at the time, they hadn't killed everyone or nearly everyone involved in Manticore's space industrial infrastructure yet.

Weird Harold wrote:
I don't expect the GA to give tech to the SLN. I expect them to give tech to allies against the SL/SLN. Specifically, to former members of the league willing to sign mutual defense treaties with the GA.

As you so rightly note, the League is the largest nation in history -- ignoring for the moment that the Solarian League is NOT a nation -- and every ally the GA can enlist in mutual defense against the League and League Navy has to be considered a plus. In order to gain the trust and assistance of former league members, it is necessary to demonstrate some degree of trust in them.

You expect them to give technology and advanced weapons to systems that (1) have little to no military assets to help with, (2)might have questionable plans post independence and (3)may or may not factor into the plans of the MA.

The GA might end up helping the MA/RF fortify systems that they would end up having to conquer. It's ok to make defence pacts with newly independent systems and it is ok to provide them with some degree of protection but making every newly independent system an ally and giving them top of the line technology means that it WILL end up in the hands of the League and the MA a lot sooner and with much less effort then it would otherwise and it might end up being used to subjugate other systems thus forcing the GA to go and fight against the aggressor.


The GA does not know the plans of the MA, they may know bits and pieces as well as have theories they do not have anything like the big picture. What this would lead to is arming the very people you will have to fight.

Weird Harold wrote:As you so rightly note, the League is the largest nation in history -- ignoring for the moment that the Solarian League is NOT a nation -- and every ally the GA can enlist in mutual defense against the League and League Navy has to be considered a plus. In order to gain the trust and assistance of former league members, it is necessary to demonstrate some degree of trust in them.

Every newly independent system would not necessarily provide an advantage to the GA, especiually if those newly independent systems have little to no military infrastructure and manpower.

Yes, some degree but to me it seems like you have only 2 levels of trust. To me it is different, give them respect and some trust and let them earn the rest. Once a new nation has demonstrated that they have the same or similar belief system as the GA member nations then they get a higher degree of trust. Giving weapons to a newly independent dictatorship that ends up like the committee of public safety wont do the GA any good since those same weapons could be used to subjugate other nations thus forcing the GA to go and fight a technological equal.

Weird Harold wrote:
We know from textev that Albrecht Detweiler laments the lack of efficiency that is slowing completion of the Leonard Detweiler class of ships. No specific timetable is given but several years remaining to completion is implied.

The League doesn't have several years so the war with the League will be over before the MAlign is ready for overt military conflict. Add a few years to reverse engineer stolen "Haven Quadrant Tech" and it will be a decade or so before stolen tech reaches a MAlign/Manticore battle. (That's longer than the six years RFC reportedly projects for the League to bring similar tech online -- which the League won't because it will disintegrate first.)

You also seem to be missing the point that the tech is already widespread enough that the MAlign should have (or should soon have) samples of everything but the manufacturing processes. The GA/Manticore wouldn't be significantly increasing the exposure of the technology -- especially if they don't distribute the manufacturing processes.

There is no guarantee that the League will collapse that soon. Something the size of the League will not collapse overnight, which means that should even a small portion of core worlds remain in the League they would still represent a tremendous danger to the GA especially as political changes take place as the League shrinks.


Giving weapons to someone means that they don't have to reverse engineer something the same way Haven had to. One way is to capture bits and pieces and reverse engineer them the other is to get the designs, manuals and actual weapons. One way might take you two, three, five or ten years while the other might take you months.


As for the technology already being widespread? How so? If it was so easy to get their hands on that technology they wouldn't have needed Monica. Having the technology in the hands of five nations is much more secure then giving it to 100 new nations a number of which are members of the MA.

What you are suggesting is for the GA to essentially hand over their technology to the MA while the MA holding on to their own technology... Can you see how that might end up badly for the GA?

The league is not an actual government, it just slept in a holiday inn. If a significant percentage of the core want to remain part of the SL under these conditions it will need to change and it will change. The revision of the articles of confederation is an example you should consider.

Sigs wrote:The GA might end up helping the MA/RF fortify systems that they would end up having to conquer.

Yep, I fully expect that to happen. Just like the US supplied F-4s to Iraq and F14s to Iran.

Sigs wrote:It's ok to make defence pacts with newly independent systems and it is ok to provide them with some degree of protection but making every newly independent system an ally and giving them top of the line technology ...

It doesn't make any sense to make a treaty to defend someone and then do less than your best to defend them. Manticore specifically and the GA in general don't have the ships or manpower to defend newly independent systems, so they need to provide defense in some other manner.

I've said several times that every system is unique and "military assistance" needs to be tailored to the needs and reliability of the system being assisted. That does NOT mean "give everyone top-of-the-line technology." But by the same token, it requires that systems be offered adequate defenses according to their need and at a minimum, I think that would have to start with MDM system defense missiles with appropriate command and control elements. That could be a wide range of MDM developments.

I don't think Manticore has a single-drive system defense missile in inventory; it has been about twenty-years since such moon-based missiles were standard system defenses and they were totally inadequate then. I suppose they could come up with something in a pod-based ERM for cheapskates who don't want to invest in MDM defenses.

Whether they provide last-war capacitor-powered MDMs of the latest Micro-fusion powered Apollo; FTL control links or light-speed "Moriarity" grade systems, the tech shared is going to inevitably be better than "Solarian Standard."

Sigs wrote:Yes, some degree but to me it seems like you have only 2 levels of trust. To me it is different, give them respect and some trust and let them earn the rest. Once a new nation has demonstrated that they have the same or similar belief system as the GA member nations then they get a higher degree of trust.

What makes you think an Ally has to share belief systems? Should we not have allied with Stalin against Hitler?

How do you get "2 levels of trust" out of "every system is unique and requires a unique defense package?"

Sigs wrote:Giving weapons to a newly independent dictatorship that ends up like the committee of public safety wont do the GA any good since those same weapons could be used to subjugate other nations thus forcing the GA to go and fight a technological equal.

Where have I advocated giving offensive tech (i.e. SHIP technology) to defense partners? Selected partners might eventually get more than missiles, LACs and FTL C3 systems, but most will get defensive -- non-hyper-capable -- military assistance.

The whole point of a web of mutual defense treaties is to deter would-be Conquistadors. IF everyone else has the same tech-level having GA tech is not a big enough advantage to encourage aggression.

Sigs wrote:As for the technology already being widespread? How so? If it was so easy to get their hands on that technology they wouldn't have needed Monica. Having the technology in the hands of five nations is much more secure then giving it to 100 new nations a number of which are members of the MA.

When Monica was planned there weren't any Manticoran "Silesian Protectorates" or Talbott Quadrant, and Neither the RHN nor the IAN had Apollo or KHII. Beowulf wasn't building Apollo missiles, Keyhole II for RHN ships, Mycroft C3 modules, Mk-16Gs or any other Manticoran tech.

Are you so certain that there are no "Randy Steilman" types in the IAN, RHN, Beowulf defense industries, the Silesian Protectorates, or the Talbott Quadrant? The tech you seem most worried about has been spread very widely since Monica.

Sigs wrote:There is no guarantee that the League will collapse that soon. Something the size of the League will not collapse overnight, which means that should even a small portion of core worlds remain in the League they would still represent a tremendous danger to the GA especially as political changes take place as the League shrinks.

When the League begins to collapse -- probably within a year of Beowulf's secession vote when the second core system secedes -- it will fall apart like the Soviet Union did; within a matter of months. The image of a watermelon tossed off the Sears Tower comes to mind.

The general consensus here seems to be the League has around two-years; three at most. There are scenarios where the League might last longer or actually survive relatively intact, but they are about as likely as that watermelon bouncing back to the observation deck in one piece.

There is a way to handle both sides to the issue, and that is to give some technical innovations but not others. For example, figure a newly liberated solarian league system that relied on it's SL status for protection. It would need as a minimum a couple of squadrons of LAC's for piracy patrols.

for example, a "worthwhile" export LAC in the 30-40K ton range that could be built by current haven yards:

would have a second generation inertial compensator, that at 620G's would be half way between old style compensators at 560G's and manticores best at 800G's

Each broadside would have 4 each 5 round revolver missile tubes firing standard DD missiles without off bore firing capability. (40 total missiles) will have dazzler and dragons teeth EW birds. Each broadside would also have one energy weapon, either a big laser or a small graser.

Chase and broadside would each have 4 CM tubes and 6 laser clusters.

It would have as good an EW suite as the shrike, but using haven electronics it would take up more space than a manty ship would need. It would also use a lot of the same crew saving automation that manty ships have.

Such a ship would give them better protection without letting out the secrets that make the RMN so deadly: MDM, FTL communciations, Bow wall, Off bore firing.

They could also give the technology for the light box launchers used in missile pods, as well as ERM technology. A missile pod stuffed with ERM missles that have a range that is about the same as the Cataphract but has a warhead bigger than a capital ship missile will go a long way against defending a system from a SLN attack.

kzt wrote:The league is not an actual government, it just slept in a holiday inn. If a significant percentage of the core want to remain part of the SL under these conditions it will need to change and it will change. The revision of the articles of confederation is an example you should consider.

That is my point, if the League is shedding systems and a number of core systems decide to remain in the league and in fact strengthen it politically to essentially make it a real nation it would be a real bad idea to give them technological parity with the GA.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:The GA might end up helping the MA/RF fortify systems that they would end up having to conquer.

Yep, I fully expect that to happen. Just like the US supplied F-4s to Iraq and F14s to Iran.

So you are encouraging arming potential enemies with modern weapons? Did the US supply Iraq with modern weapons and equipment in 2003 right before they invaded?

Weird Harold wrote:
It doesn't make any sense to make a treaty to defend someone and then do less than your best to defend them. Manticore specifically and the GA in general don't have the ships or manpower to defend newly independent systems, so they need to provide defense in some other manner.

I've said several times that every system is unique and "military assistance" needs to be tailored to the needs and reliability of the system being assisted. That does NOT mean "give everyone top-of-the-line technology." But by the same token, it requires that systems be offered adequate defenses according to their need and at a minimum, I think that would have to start with MDM system defense missiles with appropriate command and control elements. That could be a wide range of MDM developments.

I don't think Manticore has a single-drive system defense missile in inventory; it has been about twenty-years since such moon-based missiles were standard system defenses and they were totally inadequate then. I suppose they could come up with something in a pod-based ERM for cheapskates who don't want to invest in MDM defenses.

Whether they provide last-war capacitor-powered MDMs of the latest Micro-fusion powered Apollo; FTL control links or light-speed "Moriarity" grade systems, the tech shared is going to inevitably be better than "Solarian Standard."

No one is suggesting to abandon newly independent systems, what I am suggesting is to keep all defences except legacy SLN weaponry out of their hands until they prove to the GA that (1)they can be trusted with modern weapons,(2)They have a compatible political system and (3)they wont be using said weapon systems to conquer their neighbours or settle scores.

The GA has the ships to protect any and all independent systems as long as they come at the problem appropriately. If they leave the SLN relatively intact it would create a whole host of problems, while destroying the SLN and distributing reserve and captured ships to newly independent systems allows them to build up their military muscle, but allows you to maintain the upper hand until they prove they can be trusted.

Weird Harold wrote:What makes you think an Ally has to share belief systems? Should we not have allied with Stalin against Hitler?

Well Stalin and the USSR had something to offer while a newly independent system with a "fleet" of 25 LAC's doesn't really have the same advantages. The advantage for the Allies was that as long as the USSR remained in the war most of the fighting was done by them. In this scenario if the GA props up a bunch of independent states they would still carry the bulk of the fighting so the advantage is not there.

Weird Harold wrote:

How do you get "2 levels of trust" out of "every system is unique and requires a unique defense package?"

No every system is not unique, they either have the means to defend themselves or they do not and they either have the means to build a powerful fleet or they do not. Everything else has to be earned. Beowulf has a long term relationship with Manticore and has earned their trust, every other system has to do the same.

Weird Harold wrote:



Where have I advocated giving offensive tech (i.e. SHIP technology) to defense partners? Selected partners might eventually get more than missiles, LACs and FTL C3 systems, but most will get defensive -- non-hyper-capable -- military assistance.

So you are saying that if a system had the LAC's they would not be able to build their own carriers?

Or MDM Pods wont greatly extend the range of shipborne missiles? There is not a magic line between offensive and defensive weapons where having one doesn't help with the other. If you have MDM pods and LAC's they can be turned into offensive weapons quite easily in many ways without requiring purpose build ships but only freighters.

Weird Harold wrote:The whole point of a web of mutual defense treaties is to deter would-be Conquistadors. IF everyone else has the same tech-level having GA tech is not a big enough advantage to encourage aggression.

Yeah it shouldn't BUT that has not stopped all that many wars in history.


There is a difference between post war defence treaties and wartime defence treaties. Arming potential enemies with equal weapons while you are engaged in a multi-front war with multiple enemies some of which you know little about seems like a fighting against yourself.

Weird Harold wrote:When Monica was planned there weren't any Manticoran "Silesian Protectorates" or Talbott Quadrant, and Neither the RHN nor the IAN had Apollo or KHII. Beowulf wasn't building Apollo missiles, Keyhole II for RHN ships, Mycroft C3 modules, Mk-16Gs or any other Manticoran tech.

Which of those nations would be inclined to sell Manticoran technology to the League or the MA? If they all know that they face the same enemies I highly doubt they will be all that willing to share their technological advantage with potential enemies.

Weird Harold wrote:
Are you so certain that there are no "Randy Steilman" types in the IAN, RHN, Beowulf defense industries, the Silesian Protectorates, or the Talbott Quadrant? The tech you seem most worried about has been spread very widely since Monica.

So you are suggesting to just give it to everyone just because someone might TRY to sell some of those designs? I am sure that there are safeguards to prevent theft of those designs and equipment...safeguards that they wont be able to enforce in the new nations.

Weird Harold wrote:

When the League begins to collapse -- probably within a year of Beowulf's secession vote when the second core system secedes -- it will fall apart like the Soviet Union did; within a matter of months. The image of a watermelon tossed off the Sears Tower comes to mind.

And why would it collapse so fast? The SLN is impotent against the GA but most of it's member systems are in fact quite defenceless and the very actions to disarm the SLN run the risk of prolonging the collapse.


The comparison of the USSR to the League only goes so far and trying to model the collapse of a single nation on one planet to a political entity that has 2,000+ members leads to faulty assumptions.

Weird Harold wrote:

The general consensus here seems to be the League has around two-years; three at most. There are scenarios where the League might last longer or actually survive relatively intact, but they are about as likely as that watermelon bouncing back to the observation deck in one piece.

And introducing GA technology system defence weapons into the mix might allow the League to survive long enough to fix some of their faults.

Sigs wrote:So you are encouraging arming potential enemies with modern weapons? Did the US supply Iraq with modern weapons and equipment in 2003 right before they invaded?

Since you persistently (intentionally?) misunderstand the point there's no point in me reiterating it again.