Solarian Military Catchup Attempts

SWM wrote:I just found contrary evidence. I think you were fooled by the fact that the early books did not mention ECM payloads with every missile launch, unlike the later books. In fact, the Thunder of God did have ECM on missiles. So Haven definitely had ECM missiles before the war started. If Haven had them, I think we can assume that the League had them. From HoTQ:

That worried Simonds, for Thunder was a battlecruiser. His missiles were bigger and heavier, with a significantly greater penaid and ECM payload.

I tend to think you're right, but a more literal reading of it comes across as an attack missile with a (presumably limited) ECM capability - not as a dedicated ECM-only bird.

So basically an on-board jammer, rather than a more capable escort jammer.


But the logic of putting it on specialized missile (if for no other reason than to avoid letting CM's play "home on jam" games against your attack missiles) is pretty persuasive. So like I said, I think you're right and at least Haven's bigger warships probably carried some dedicated ECM warheads for their missiles.

I don't recall any of the termini of Yildin Junction being mentioned in the opening rounds of Lacoon II so I don't think any part of it was hit. What we were shown was SEM forces working down chains of wormholes that lead back in the direction of Manticore and the Haven Sector in general. They were putting blocking forces at BOTH ends of each worm hole. Striking any wormhole where one of both ends are deep in the SL without at least the potential of being able to pull parts of the forces back out through the wormhole would leave the blocking force without a more or less secure major logistical route to and from the location without a long passage through hyperspace. That would carry a much higher possiblilty that one or both forces for the ends of the wormhole could end up in a desperate situation and become relativly isolated from relief or ability for most of the ships to run to hyperspace. It would be one thing for several BCs to have to break-out from as BF assault but the logistics, such as ammuntion ships and even the CLACS could end up being trapped and destroyed in detail.

Yildin would be an absolute bitch to hit but with the range advantage of the SEM (and or RHN) missles it would be possible to mostly stand off for the attack beyond the range of SLN (OR Yildin SDF) to effectively engage.
At this point the GA "should" have reasonable specs and actual performance data on the Cataphracts used both at Torch and then at 2nd Manticore so they won't be quite the problem that they were for Rozsak.

I would NOT try to come through the Yildin junction to hit the system but I would put one force to hit it and then hold it comming out of hyper as close to it as possible. Again, the relative range advantage of the GA would let it engage from outside the range of the YSDF and any ships that BF may have posted specifically at the Yildin end of the junction.

Convincing Technodyne to abandon the yards and major stations would be a sticking point. They may think that at least SEM would not open fire on the stations and fabrication facilities if they refuse to evacuate. On the other hand, if you are comming in hot and start destroying platforms further out in the system (after warning them first) they would get the picture.

GA would need to get updated scans and activity in the system which might be possible using commercial shipping if any non Techodyne ships are still allowed into the system. It is always possible that Techodyne might be much more worried about somebody showing up to do just that since they are well known both as a major builder for SLN ships and (Fillerta's worries and thoughts about where the new missles came from to the contrary) it has sounded like Techodyne is widely known to be the producer as the Cataphract source and might think that they were a better target for the GA than someplace otherwise more tempting as a military target like the Reserve Fleet and facilities at Sol.

Still, the chance to destroy all that building/repair capacity and potentialy kill so many SLN military ships without doing it in a place like Sol is tempting. Complicated and it will mean losses to the GA because they are going into a place that should be both well defended and is probably on alert. However, smashing everything usefull in Yildin would send a message (without hitting a system with a habitable planet as a member of the SL) would put a lot of pressure on both the Mandarins, the SLN and other transstellars.

If you hit the system, do it both hard and fast. Get in and then get the hell out.

I won't speculate on who would be tasked to command the operation or command the multiple sets of forces needed to do the job.

Jonathan_S wrote:I tend to think you're right, but a more literal reading of it comes across as an attack missile with a (presumably limited) ECM capability - not as a dedicated ECM-only bird.

So basically an on-board jammer, rather than a more capable escort jammer.


But the logic of putting it on specialized missile (if for no other reason than to avoid letting CM's play "home on jam" games against your attack missiles) is pretty persuasive. So like I said, I think you're right and at least Haven's bigger warships probably carried some dedicated ECM warheads for their missiles.

I'll have to check, but off the top of my head I can't think of any textev that even Manticore had dedicated ECM missiles before Ghost Rider. The textev I recall seemed to indicate that all missiles had some limited ECM capability. If that's true, it may be that dedicated ECM missiles weren't worthwhile until the mini-fusion generator of Ghost Rider.

SWM wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I tend to think you're right, but a more literal reading of it comes across as an attack missile with a (presumably limited) ECM capability - not as a dedicated ECM-only bird.

So basically an on-board jammer, rather than a more capable escort jammer.


But the logic of putting it on specialized missile (if for no other reason than to avoid letting CM's play "home on jam" games against your attack missiles) is pretty persuasive. So like I said, I think you're right and at least Haven's bigger warships probably carried some dedicated ECM warheads for their missiles.

I'll have to check, but off the top of my head I can't think of any textev that even Manticore had dedicated ECM missiles before Ghost Rider. The textev I recall seemed to indicate that all missiles had some limited ECM capability. If that's true, it may be that dedicated ECM missiles weren't worthwhile until the mini-fusion generator of Ghost Rider.

Didn't find anything definitive in OBS, but there was this tidbit from HotQ

Honor of the Queen: Chapter 33 wrote:Nine missiles charged through space, and Thunder of God’s computers blinked in cybernetic surprise at their unorthodox approach. They came in massed in a tight phalanx, suicidally tight against modern point defense . . . except that the three lead missiles carried nothing but ECM. Their jammers howled, blinding every active and passive sensor system, building a solid wall of interference.

That sounds like a pure jammer warhead to me.

And SVW had this bit from the Battle of Hancock

Short Victorious War: Chapter 29 wrote:and almost a third of the incoming missiles carried neither laser heads nor nukes. They were fitted instead with the best ECM emitters and electronic penaids Manticore could build, and they played hell with Havenite tracking systems. Missile impeller signatures split apart and recombined with insane abandon, jammers scrambled defensive radar, and sheer, howling electronic noise attacked squadron tactical nets that hadn't had the least idea they were about to be assailed.

So Manticore had dedicated ECM missiles (well, warheads) of one sort or another even back pre-war and I believe they were a staple of 1st war combat -- well before ghost rider eventually brought fusion powered Mk23s and Mk16s to the party. (They upped the effectiveness through sheer power though; no question about that)

Hi SWM, Jonathan_S;

Thanks very much for the information.

If I may clarify, I think the ECM SWM was referring to was part of the 'pen aids' each missile had, not a dedicated ECM only type, which is what I believe was new about the RMN missiles HH used in OBS etc.

I'm pretty sure 'pen aids' have been part of the standard missile package for centuries, while dedicated ECM with no warhead at all, might have taken quite a while to accept, since it meant a warhead that otherwise might have penetrated was 'wasted'.

It seems like some of the R&D King Roger might have had done or encouraged might have validated such an approach in spite of the conventional wisdom.

That's how it appeared to me, anyway.

L

SWM wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Whitecold,

That's possible, but the SLN has been modernizing, albeit at a very slow pace by Haven sector standards; the FF in particular we know is far more cutting edge according to Helen in CoS, as Gauntlet's experience in Tiburon against Gladiator class heavy cruisers demonstrated, while the Nevada BC's are designed for modular replacement to speed upgrades, etc.

We haven't had SLN or FF officers discuss ECM heads before, though they knew they existed ie they had them by NT, and the Technodyne representative in 1920 was familiar with them, even though the BC's didn't use any, nor did the Gladiator CA's in Tiburon.

Why would manpower and its shills hold back a common weapon?

Unless it was still rather rare.

So 20 years after OBS, the SLN appears to be familiar with the concept, and by 1922 at least expect them to be used in any engagement.

Still the power budget of the mini fusion units has always come as a shock to the SLN in the past 3 books, usually in a way they can't report how bad it is.

So while Saltash was generally a clean sweep for Zavala, letting Captain Ping-wa go means news of the RMN's powerful ECM may finally get out to the rest of the SLN, although the news from Zunker should have done the same.

Whether or not the SLN will be able to do anything with that knowledge remains to be seen.

L

I just found contrary evidence. I think you were fooled by the fact that the early books did not mention ECM payloads with every missile launch, unlike the later books. In fact, the Thunder of God did have ECM on missiles. So Haven definitely had ECM missiles before the war started. If Haven had them, I think we can assume that the League had them. From HoTQ:

That worried Simonds, for Thunder was a battlecruiser. His missiles were bigger and heavier, with a significantly greater penaid and ECM payload.

Now that I'm back from vacation and (mostly) unjetlagged, I can give this topic the attention it deserves.

We had this argument once before about the nature of EW birds on this board, and I had a Skype exchange with David about it. Dedicated EW missiles existed well before the Havenite Wars, and are in use by every major navy. They might or might not have been particularly good EW missiles, but they existed. Ghost Rider did nothing revolutionary in this regard - it just made EW missiles a hell of a lot better.

[
And as for the commander, lyonheart, I rather think a major action/raid/smashing things is right up the alley of a certain cigar-smoking admiral of our acquaintance.[/quote][/quote]


---------------

I would suggest a 3-part command -- possibly Lester in overall command, but I would like to see Genevive Chin and Alice Truman on that operation.

Chin is smart, resilient (advanced or recovered under 3 Havenite navies).

We've seen a lot of Alice Truman.

A third task force commander could be Solomon Marchant -- He should be RAdm at least at this point, if he has survived.

-- Stewart

Back to the original intent of the thread:

SLN Catch-up efforts will likely run in 2-3 areas (and likely lead by either FF or SDF's alligned with SL / Core (as opposed to break-away like Boewolf or Maya sector)

1) System Defense Missles -- more of Technodyne extended range or similar.

2) System Defense Counter-Missiles -- pods of counter missiles (100+) with fire control slaved to 2 or 3 DD's with their fire control modified for counter-missile only (similar to the post-WWII DDR's used as radar picket destroyers, mod'ed WWII Destroyers for single purpose)

3) SLN / SDF LAC's loaded with CM's -- likely take the early Havenite path of starting with a pinnace or assault shuttle and taking out all but the bare minimum needed to free-up mass. Add the defensive (or offensive) systems that can be fit in (or attached) for a 1st generation "modern" LAC. The Japanese (and later the Soviets) did something similar to this with their 2-man / mini-subs)

-- Stewart

Got to admit, this thread does make me think of Rocky and Bullwinkle.

Annachie wrote:Got to admit, this thread does make me think of Rocky and Bullwinkle.

Where's Natasha ?

-- Stewart