Space Combat

Amaroq wrote:

SWM wrote:I'm afraid your memory is at fault. He doesn't use the term "associate power" or "associated power", he uses the term "ally":

As I was reading through the thread I saw this debate and remembered something that was pertinent to it. In ART it is specified that the Andermani were/are an associated power.

...and the Andermani Empire was an “associated power” rather than a full member of the Manticoran Alliance, anyway.

Aha. All right, associated power instead of Manticoran Alliance. Thanks for the pointer!

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Sort of like a lot of the posters who have described the Jessica Epps, in WoH, as a Sag-B. I never found that specified in the book anywhere, and I don't see why it would have been necessary--the IAN had some good equipment, but it wasn't as good as they thought, and their readiness wasn't up to RMN standards either. By that time, even the older Saganami class had ghost rider drones. RFC didn't need a Sag-B to give Hellebarde a BAD DAY.

A Sag-A might well have given Hellebarde a bad day, but the minor details in WoH make it pretty clear Jessica Epps was a Sag-B.

For one thing we're indirectly given her tonnage at a little over 416,666 tons. "The ship they were pursuing massed no more than fifty thousand tons, little more than twelve percent of an Edward Saganami-class cruiser like Jessica Epps"
About right for the 422,750 ton Sag-B, but too big for the 393,000 ton Sag-A.

But the easier detail to catch is they specifically point out that the combat began "in excess of ten million klicks from Jessica Epps." and go on to discuss how you need ghost rider or other extended range missiles to do that. The only Mantie CA weight ERM we know of is the Mk14; which was introduced on (and only carried by) Sag-Bs.


It's pretty clear to me that whatever a Sag-A might have been able to do, after closing the range, Jessica Epps (and Ephraim Tudor) were both Sag-B CAs.

[Edited for missing space between words]

[Edited again because it seems I can't write 393,000 without getting a digit wrong...]

Jonathan_S wrote:A Sag-A might well have given Hellebarde a bad day, but the minor details in WoH make it pretty clear Jessica Epps was a Sag-B.

For one thing we're indirectly given her tonnage at a little over 416,666 tons. "The ship they were pursuing massed no more than fifty thousand tons, little more than twelve percent of an Edward Saganami-class cruiser like Jessica Epps"
About right for the 422,750 ton Sag-B, but too big for the 393,000 ton Sag-A.

But the easier detail to catch is they specifically point out that the combat began "in excess of ten million klicks from Jessica Epps." and go on to discuss how you need ghost rider or other extended range missiles to do that. The only Mantie CA weight ERM we know of is the Mk14; which was introduced on (and only carried by) Sag-Bs.


It's pretty clear to me that whatever a Sag-A might have been able to do, after closing the range, Jessica Epps (and Ephraim Tudor) were both Sag-B CAs.

Hi Jonathan_S,

I've just run the numbers, and by my calculations the tonnages you're quoting actually support the Epps being a Sag-A, not a Sag-B:

50,000/393,000 = 0.127, or 12.7%

50,000/422,750 = 0.118, or 11.8%.

It's the Sag-A tonnage that makes the target 'little more than 12%" of Epps, especially if the 50,000 ton figure is high.If she was a Sag-B it would be less than 12%.

In addition, I can't think of any instance where a Sag-B or Sag-C was referred to as Edward Saganami class, they're always Saganami-B or Saganami-C.

Dafmeister wrote:[Edited for missing space between words]

[Edited again because it seems I can't write 393,000 without getting a digit wrong...]

Jonathan_S wrote:A Sag-A might well have given Hellebarde a bad day, but the minor details in WoH make it pretty clear Jessica Epps was a Sag-B.

For one thing we're indirectly given her tonnage at a little over 416,666 tons. "The ship they were pursuing massed no more than fifty thousand tons, little more than twelve percent of an Edward Saganami-class cruiser like Jessica Epps"
About right for the 422,750 ton Sag-B, but too big for the 393,000 ton Sag-A.

But the easier detail to catch is they specifically point out that the combat began "in excess of ten million klicks from Jessica Epps." and go on to discuss how you need ghost rider or other extended range missiles to do that. The only Mantie CA weight ERM we know of is the Mk14; which was introduced on (and only carried by) Sag-Bs.


It's pretty clear to me that whatever a Sag-A might have been able to do, after closing the range, Jessica Epps (and Ephraim Tudor) were both Sag-B CAs.

Hi Jonathan_S,

I've just run the numbers, and by my calculations the tonnages you're quoting actually support the Epps being a Sag-A, not a Sag-B:

50,000/393,000 = 0.127, or 12.7%

50,000/422,750 = 0.118, or 11.8%.

It's the Sag-A tonnage that makes the target 'little more than 12%" of Epps, especially if the 50,000 ton figure is high.If she was a Sag-B it would be less than 12%.

In addition, I can't think of any instance where a Sag-B or Sag-C was referred to as Edward Saganami class, they're always Saganami-B or Saganami-C.

Whoop, you're right I screwed up the math.
(I did it backwards 50000/.12; which is fine. But then I assumed how a > 12% would move the numbers; I didn't actually double check )

Ok, so the tonnage does lean towards a Sag-A. But the missiles ranges don't...


I don't know if there's an error (not impossible), something we don't know, or just the tech bible got updated and clarified when we were formally introduced to the Sag-Bs and -Cs.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't know if there's an error (not impossible), something we don't know, or just the tech bible got updated and clarified when we were formally introduced to the Sag-Bs and -Cs.

IIRC, HoS mentioned that there wasn't really a true 'Sag-A' as such; they kept tinkering with each one, and didn't get a true 'standard' design until the Sag-B, so most 'Sag-A's are something in between Mike's Edward Saganami and the other Mike's Gauntlet.

It's possible that some or all of the Sag-As were refitted to fire the Mark 14 between the wars.

Out of interest, can anyone point me to the text where it says that the Sag-B was the first class to use the Mark 14?

Dafmeister wrote:It's possible that some or all of the Sag-As were refitted to fire the Mark 14 between the wars.

Out of interest, can anyone point me to the text where it says that the Sag-B was the first class to use the Mark 14?

It's the only class we've seen explicitly firing Mark 14s (though Maya/Erewhon Marksman have been seen firing the Erewhon Mark 17, which is very similar, and the Maya Sector forces have used them in pods, too). It's very widely believed that the Flight III/IV Reliant BCs fire Mark 14s, too, but there's no textev for exactly why they're bigger than Honor's Nike, they just are.

Dafmeister wrote:It's possible that some or all of the Sag-As were refitted to fire the Mark 14 between the wars.

Out of interest, can anyone point me to the text where it says that the Sag-B was the first class to use the Mark 14?

I stirred up some interest. Thanks.

There is no mention of the Mk 14 until Service of the Sword, and its capabilities are not very well delineated.

The "standard" Saganami A was the flight II listed in HOS; no date when it commissioned. The Saganami B was funded as a "Block III" or something Saganami, until they went into production in 1917. HOS called the Reliant class flight II a "test platform" for various technologies in its later build units, but the text does NOT say what tech they are talking about. In one of the missile tech pearls, DW says the Mk 14 came out of the same drive-node tech as the multi-drive missile, so it probably came out with the Ghost Rider drones as a BC specific missile for the Reliant flight III--listed in HOS as a unit first commissioned in 1915, so the design pre-dates Janacek.

Also, FWIW----There actually was another ERM specified in the text in SoF---in the discusssion about Torch and long range missiles between Kaplan and Hearns, Abby says Rozsak would have wanted at LEAST the MK13-ER.

Regards,

Rob

Ok, I can just incorporate the update into my thinking. Kudos to Lyonheart!

Rob

tpope wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:The 1908 date isn't an error, I think. It is 4 years after the Graysons built the Alvarez; long enough to decide what they wanted in the Star Knight's immediate replacement.

Actually, going back to my notes, it looks like Lyonheart is right about the date being in error. 1908 PD is when the first ship was supposed to have been commissioned, but HMS Edward Saganami didn't make it to active service until late 1911, and she STILL spent the next two years undergoing some pretty major refits.

Thanks for the catch, I'll update the errata and post to our website (http://www.bunine.org) shortly.

Oh, and HMS War Maiden was a Warrior-class by the way...