New Manty ship ideas.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Space_ ... Technology

the above link says energy torpedo's fire at near light speed.



So it would be better for point defense clusters on the broad sides, and fore and aft, plus tube launched anti missile or katana like combo launchers.

Lots of small missiles.

Try again. A point defense laser cluster is smaller and capable of more rapid firing than an energy torpedo mount. There's no way that a ET comes out on top in point defense.

Perhaps i didn't write that very well.

CL with a pair of SD grazers, fore and aft. With point defense clusters.

Broadside with katana like combo Counter missile - missile launchers.

Lots of little missiles.

Dumb bombs for fast strafe attacks.

FTL ghost rider sensor platforms optimized for high speed attacks and lots of counter missiles.

Strongest wedge possible and hyper.

Streak drive maybe?

A big extra powerful hyper capable screening ship and raiding ship. Made to absorb missiles and close to Grazer range, then either escape or maintain a screen.

Lord Skimper wrote:Hit and run on an off angle attack to just skim whatever is in a system. Use ghost rider with gravatic sensors and start well out of the system, blaze in fast .9c or faster. Hit whatever one can at maximum range, fire an energy torpedo broadside, or as many as one can, and get out. The faster one goes the harder one is to detect without FTL sensors. Energy torpedo's fire at light speed and big grazers will cause merry havok.

In addition to the problems Duckk points out with energy torpedoes, you have other problems with this idea. How are you going to get a ship moving at 0.9c? The very best military-grade rad shields only work up to 0.8 c. If you go faster than that, you end up killing everyone on board.

Also, you suggest that it is hard to detect a target at relativistic speeds without FTL sensors, but you forget that the Honorverse has FTL sensors. The primary sensor at long ranges is the grav sensor, which is FTL. Since you specified that these ships would use impellers, they would be easily visible to grav sensors in the system long before they got close. If you want to avoid the FTL sensors, you need a drive other than impellers, which means much lower acceleration. Even then, any advantage in high-speed runs without impellers would be eliminated once the enemy develops drones with FTL comm. So this tactic is useful only in the short term.

Lord Skimper wrote:Perhaps i didn't write that very well.

CL with a pair of SD grazers, fore and aft. With point defense clusters.

Broadside with katana like combo Counter missile - missile launchers.

Lots of little missiles.

Dumb bombs for fast strafe attacks.

FTL ghost rider sensor platforms optimized for high speed attacks and lots of counter missiles.

Strongest wedge possible and hyper.

Streak drive maybe?

A big extra powerful hyper capable screening ship and raiding ship. Made to absorb missiles and close to Grazer range, then either escape or maintain a screen.

What exactly does this enormous, fragile, expensive, manpower-intensive CL-sized LAC do that other ships don't? And how does it do them any better? A current CL can't start outside sensor range, build up speed, and do a hit and run?

I'm glad our infrastructure isn't designed by self-appointed philosophers making crap up or I'd be scared the next time I have to drive across a bridge...

Lord Skimper wrote:Mass times length width and depth. On a Trojan it ends up with less total weapons and greater mass in a smaller ship than a Battle Cruiser or Battle ship. Now I'm assuming that armour has some weight in the future. Given that it is ablative one assumes that it is heavy.

If the AMC had no armour it would either have a lower mass or be bigger. But in this case it is the opposite. Heavier and smaller, carrying less weapons and subtracting the LAC weight, still makes it heavier than a like sized battle cruiser by 2%. About the same with a lot less weapon placements than a Duquesne class super dreadnought from Haven 1906-1917.

The only real difference being the wedge strength.

If everything was civilian massed it would either be a lot bigger, or a great deal less mass.

Seawise Giant has 8 times the volume and 9 times the mass at full load than Yamato. Does this mean Seawise Giant is more heavily armored than Yamato?

tachnyrus wrote:

Lord Skimper wrote:Mass times length width and depth. On a Trojan it ends up with less total weapons and greater mass in a smaller ship than a Battle Cruiser or Battle ship. Now I'm assuming that armour has some weight in the future. Given that it is ablative one assumes that it is heavy.

If the AMC had no armour it would either have a lower mass or be bigger. But in this case it is the opposite. Heavier and smaller, carrying less weapons and subtracting the LAC weight, still makes it heavier than a like sized battle cruiser by 2%. About the same with a lot less weapon placements than a Duquesne class super dreadnought from Haven 1906-1917.

The only real difference being the wedge strength.

If everything was civilian massed it would either be a lot bigger, or a great deal less mass.

Seawise Giant has 8 times the volume and 9 times the mass at full load than Yamato. Does this mean Seawise Giant is more heavily armored than Yamato?

It would if, like a trojan, it didn't have any cargo.

Lord Skimper wrote:It would if, like a trojan, it didn't have any cargo.

I love how you deliberately ignore the entire damned book so you can make stuff up. Every time they describe a combat situation in Honor Among Enemies, it's emphasized how fragile and unarmored the Trojans are.

The 7.3MT/8MT figure quoted for the original Caravans has to be full load mass - otherwise, adding in cargo would shoot the mass much higher. Therefore, freighters quoted at 8MT has to include the cargo mass in there already.

A Sultan's beams completely gutted Wayfarer, whereas four Sultan's beams could barely scratch Bellerophon's armor. That's not inference, that's hard fact of what happened. So the best we can do is rationalize other reasons why the Trojans mass so much. Maybe they're stuffed with high-mass material (that's cheaper than armor) so they appear to be 8MT freighters to gravitic sensors (makes most sense to me).

Or you can shrug like you've been doing all thread and just make more stuff up.

The trojan AMC has a volume to mass ratio that 99.9889% of the volume to weight ratio of the Grayson Harrington II-class podsuperdreadnaught.

Now if we have to take what is published in the books as doctrine then the only reason the volume to mass ratio on the AMC which doesn't carry any cargo. Has less weapons, less pods and less missiles but does carry 12 282 LAC which make up only 0.0289% of its mass, and we don't know if the mass listed is dry mass or fully loaded. Of course one could assume the extra 804 missile pods would add mass to the SD-P.

While the AMC might carry more people / crew, maybe. People don't mass much.

So if it doesn't carry any armour why does the trojan mass so high?


Can't be the compensator or wedge as the AMC only has a civilian version.

Weapon load internal is not very big, although it does have 10 inner launch tubes, but then there are all those 804 extra pods to consider too.

The Harrington II-class pod super dreadnought has 60 tube launched missiles to the Trojan-class armed merchant cruiser's 20. 60 Grazers to 16. 150 counter missile tubes to 26. And 172 point defense vs 34.

Of course the 282's carried additional weapons too. 96 additional but as noted smaller point defense. 144 missile cells, 12 counter missile launchers and 24 lasers.



My guess would be that after the prototype AMC, subsequent ship where improved and armoured. It notes that the prototype had design flaws that where fixed in later generations. And went on to serve very well. One would think no armour would be a design flaw.

Although the Caravan freighter was a "Logistics Command for rear area supply."

House of steel page 399

Trojan-class armed merchant cruiser.
Mass: 7,352,000 tons
Dimensions: 1199 x 200 x 185 m

Page 504

Harrington II-class Pod superdreadnought
Mass: 8,779,250 tons
Dimensions: 1395 x 202 x 188 m

Add it up yourself. Not making it up.

Page 399 line 14 from bottom of page to line 11 from bottom of page "BuShips decided to eliminate all cargo storage from the Trojan and use all of the volume freed up for a number of weapon systems, some more experimental than others."