Excusez-moi

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:But the gist of my point that was missed is that Honor is without a doubt the first Beta with the IQ enhancement who is in the predatory jungle that is the navy!

My point is it does not matter whether Honor is the first to receive the IQ enhancement. She is the first in the navy to have received the IQ enhancement!

-- skip --

When Honor hypers into Darius. STOP
She will be the mother of all phucking Alphas. STOP

Perhaps she WILL BE when Darius is found, but that is off in the future, your initial statement was that she IS now.

It is very unlikely that in all the years since Meyerdahl was settled, that Honor is the first Beta genie to have joined the navy (they probably have been members of various navies over the centuries). She is only the first Beta in the navy with a series of books written about her exploits.

She IS now. Do you think there's someone else in the galaxy equal to her? There's Anisimovna. But, different career paths.

Do reread that and note that I changed the statement to allow for the Wintons. As in Roger. Honor is head over heels.

penny wrote:There probably is no evidence. And you might be correct, but let's reason this out in my head. The Harringtons are descended from Meyerdahl's First Wave of heavy grav mods. That was the first heavy grav mod. Honor is descended from the Betas. The IQ enhancement is said to assist colonists who settle predatory environments. Now, there might be another player in the game other than Meyerdahl who was making genies. But the Meyerdahl mods were the first heavy grav mods. That is a fact.

That's an unwarranted conclusion. We know that the Meyerdahl First Wave was the first wave of heavy gravity mods to Meyerdahl. That does not imply there were no previous heavy gravity mods to other planets.

If there is another player making genies, they were beaten to the punch making heavy grav genies. And heavy grav genies definitely benefited from the IQ enhancement. I agree, that is still not concrete proof.

It's not proof at all.

So, what are the choices? Bred for higher gravity. Bred for lower gravity. Bred for normal gravities. Why would a normal g planet need mods?

Other environmental conditions, such as... I don't know... heavy metal concentration? Where would we have heard about that?

It can be radiation, the peak wavelength of the star's output, temperature, the ability to digest the local food sources, etc.

Even for those remaining on Earth, I'm sure there were mods to remove hair loss, increase height, reduce the chance of diabetes or obesity, increase sexual characteristics, etc.

Unless!, this mod consists of the IQ enhancement only. If so, I'd wager that that mod -- a mod with a baseline IQ enhancement only -- is the mod which later became the Alphas. It's possible.

Alignment Alphas or Meyerdahl Alphas?

If the former, I agree. The MAlign would have looked for all successful IQ enhancement mods and tried them all, combining and discarding as needed.

But the gist of my point that was missed is that Honor is without a doubt the first Beta with the IQ enhancement who is in the predatory jungle that is the navy!

Why do you think Honor is the first person in the Navy to have the Meyerdahl mod? We know Sphinx attracted a lot of other heavy-gravity modded people, like Charles Townsend, a.k.a Chomps. He was a heavy-gravity-mod genie from Sphinx, whose family emigrated from Kismet. We don't know if the Kismet mod had an IQ component too, but Chomps was no sloucher in intelligence. He did actually work for the Office of Naval Intelligence (though people say "Military Intelligence" is an oxymoron...).

You're saying no other Meyerdahl descendant joined the RMN between the 1500s and 1860. Why would that be?

The possible exception to that is the Wintons.

That's not a "possible" exception. It's a definite one, because we know of Wintons serving in the Navy from the time the Navy was first called "the Navy."

So I must change that statement to Honor is the first IQ enhanced genie who is head over heels above the rest. We all discussed how creating Alphas will not guarantee their success in the navy; someone adept at formulating strategies and tactics. Honor is proven!

That I agree: she is indeed much superior to others we've known, as shown from the fact that was to be buried next to Edward Saganami and Ellen D'Orville, the other two most significant Navy officers in the Kingdom's history.

penny wrote:But the gist of my point that was missed is that Honor is without a doubt the first Beta with the IQ enhancement who is in the predatory jungle that is the navy!

My point is it does not matter whether Honor is the first to receive the IQ enhancement. She is the first in the navy to have received the IQ enhancement!

-- skip --

When Honor hypers into Darius. STOP
She will be the mother of all phucking Alphas. STOP

tlb wrote:Perhaps she WILL BE when Darius is found, but that is off in the future, your initial statement was that she IS now.

It is very unlikely that in all the years since Meyerdahl was settled, that Honor is the first Beta genie to have joined the navy (they probably have been members of various navies over the centuries). She is only the first Beta in the navy with a series of books written about her exploits.

penny wrote:She IS now. Do you think there's someone else in the galaxy equal to her? There's Anisimovna. But, different career paths.

Do reread that and note that I changed the statement to allow for the Wintons. As in Roger. Honor is head over heels.

You are arguing against yourself; to justify the statement that "She is the .. mother", you the wrote "She will be the mother" when she attacks Darius. I only pointed out that was something that MIGHT happen in the future. But the author might still carry through with the plan to have her children do this (the next book is said to include how they do), in that case she with be the mother of the conquerors of Darius.

As I said there could have been MANY Meyerdahl-Betas in various navies in the centuries since Meyerdahl was settled. Are you saying she is the first and only Meyerdahl-B in the navy, because you do not know of anyone else?

Quelhollow is another heavy world modification, do we know when it was settled?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's an unwarranted conclusion. We know that the Meyerdahl First Wave was the first wave of heavy gravity mods to Meyerdahl. That does not imply there were no previous heavy gravity mods to other planets.

Actually the text does read to me like they were likely the first ever.

This is Honor talking to White Haven

In Enemy Hands wrote:"That's fascinating," White Haven murmured. "You say more than half of Sphinx has the same modification?"
"That's only an estimate, and it's not one modification. The Harringtons are descended from the Meyerdahl First Wave, which was one of the first-in fact, I think it was the first-heavy-grav modification, and folks like us probably make up about twenty or twenty-five percent of the population. But there are several variations on the same theme, and worlds tend to attract colonists who can live there comfortably. When you add the free passages the government offered to recruit fresh colonists after the Plague of Twenty-Two AL, Sphinx wound up attracting an even bigger chunk of us than most, including a lot from the core worlds who wouldn't even have considered emigration otherwise. In many respects, the Meyerdahl genies are the most successful, in my modest opinion, though. Our musculature enhancement is certainly the most efficient, at any rate

I certainly didn't read that as being just the first-heavy-grav modification for Meyerdahl.


(though slightly earlier in that conversion she touches on Quelhollow since White Haven brought that up)

In Enemy Hands wrote:"Well, Quelhollow had some other environmental concerns, whereas my ancestors were more of a . . . generic design, I suppose. [...] The idea was to fit us for heavy-grav planets generally, not one in particular

ABF also passingly calls out Quelhollow as being another very early (pre-final-war) heavy-grav colony. But nothing about which was earlier.

Then the short story Beauty and the Beast refers to Kismet and Cantrell (heavy-grav) modifications in addition to those from Quelhollow and Myerdahl -- but again no indication of the relative timing of the development of those groups of modifications. (BTW Chomp presumably has those Kismet modifications; as his parents immigrated from there)

penny wrote:The possible exception to that is the Wintons.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:That's not a "possible" exception. It's a definite one, because we know of Wintons serving in the Navy from the time the Navy was first called "the Navy."

I just can't seem to get it right about how much of my logic I should spell out. When I think my logic would be obvious and easily digested it isn't, which oftentimes lead to walls of text and / or misunderstandings.

Anyway, what I was alluding to is that I don't think that we can place the Wintons in that pile, except tentatively. Remember, we do not know what the Wintons genetic makeup consists of. There is a statement that it is a lot like or similar to (forget the exact wording) the Harringtons. But again, that is a bit vague. Personally I'm not sure I can assume the Wintons even have the IQ enhancement lest someone has the proof. I'd wager they do, since they also bond with Treecats, but that could be argued to be circumstantial evidence. At any rate, since I'm an Alpha too I knew to allow for the fact that that notion could fall through.

penny wrote:But the gist of my point that was missed is that Honor is without a doubt the first Beta with the IQ enhancement who is in the predatory jungle that is the navy!

My point is it does not matter whether Honor is the first to receive the IQ enhancement. She is the first in the navy to have received the IQ enhancement!

-- skip --

When Honor hypers into Darius. STOP
She will be the mother of all phucking Alphas. STOP

tlb wrote:Perhaps she WILL BE when Darius is found, but that is off in the future, your initial statement was that she IS now.

It is very unlikely that in all the years since Meyerdahl was settled, that Honor is the first Beta genie to have joined the navy (they probably have been members of various navies over the centuries). She is only the first Beta in the navy with a series of books written about her exploits.

penny wrote:She IS now. Do you think there's someone else in the galaxy equal to her? There's Anisimovna. But, different career paths.

Do reread that and note that I changed the statement to allow for the Wintons. As in Roger. Honor is head over heels.

tlb wrote:As I said there could have been MANY Meyerdahl-Betas in various navies in the centuries since Meyerdahl was settled. Are you saying she is the first and only Meyerdahl-B in the navy, because you do not know of anyone else?

Quelhollow is another heavy world modification, do we know when it was settled?

No no no. That is not what I am saying. I oftentimes build my logic upon all of the discussions and breakthroughs made throughout my tenure on the forum. And oftentimes I utilize your own weapons against you.

Everyone has been telling me that cloning Honor would not necessarily result in an Honor 2.0. And that is correct. Different experiences shapes a person differently. Everyone has also been telling me that an Alpha (or Beta) will not necessarily result in an officer who will make it on our Top Ten Tacticians and Strategists list. You made that statement in reference to my inferences (okay, downright statements) that the MAN will be a worthy adversary with so many officers with higher IQ's across the board.

Now, targeting you with your own weapon, I am saying that it does not matter how many Betas came before Honor in the Navy. There could be millions and you would be hard pressed to find another Salamander.

You and the masses said it yourself.

I said it before. I think Honor's genetic soup had all of the right ingredients. By accident. I do not think Honor's IQ can be surpassed. Perhaps equaled. But not surpassed. The MA can try, but at the risk of creating flaws because a little more of this creates a little less of that.

I visualize an example of that displayed on the old-fashioned scales used for weighing. If you tap tap tap that weight in one direction, you notice that end becomes smaller while the other end gets longer. Genetic tampering has a finite accumulative absolute outcome.

penny wrote:No no no. That is not what I am saying. I oftentimes build my logic upon all of the discussions and breakthroughs made throughout my tenure on the forum. And oftentimes I utilize your own weapons against you.

Everyone has been telling me that cloning Honor would not necessarily result in an Honor 2.0. And that is correct. Different experiences shapes a person differently. Everyone has also been telling me that an Alpha (or Beta) will not necessarily result in an officer who will make it on our Top Ten Tacticians and Strategists list. You made that statement in reference to my inferences (okay, downright statements) that the MAN will be a worthy adversary with so many officers with higher IQ's across the board.

Now, targeting you with your own weapon, I am saying that it does not matter how many Betas came before Honor in the Navy. There could be millions and you would be hard pressed to find another Salamander.

You and the masses said it yourself.

I said it before. I think Honor's genetic soup had all of the right ingredients. By accident. I do not think Honor's IQ can be surpassed. Perhaps equaled. But not surpassed. The MA can try, but at the risk of creating flaws because a little more of this creates a little less of that.

I visualize an example of that displayed on the old-fashioned scales used for weighing. If you tap tap tap that weight in one direction, you notice that end becomes smaller while the other end gets longer. Genetic tampering has a finite accumulative absolute outcome.

Previously you were talking in terms of a Meyerdahl-B in the navy, but now you are changing to just saying that Honor is the person most like Honor in the navy. Basically a tautology, so impossible to dispute.

I have never tried to argue that Honor was unique, the short story about her father makes the similarities clear. Since we know little about her ancestors, except for Stephanie; I am not prepared to say another Salamander is impossible. But the only way we would know would be if a story was written about such a person; just as we only know about Honor's characteristics is by the stories written about her.

penny wrote:Anyway, what I was alluding to is that I don't think that we can place the Wintons in that pile, except tentatively. Remember, we do not know what the Wintons genetic makeup consists of. There is a statement that it is a lot like or similar to (forget the exact wording) the Harringtons. But again, that is a bit vague. Personally I'm not sure I can assume the Wintons even have the IQ enhancement lest someone has the proof. I'd wager they do, since they also bond with Treecats, but that could be argued to be circumstantial evidence.

If you carefully read what Allison said in the text presented in this thread, it is clear that she believes that they have an IQ enhancement. The only vague part in her statement was whether their enhancement also results in an attraction to bonding by the treecats.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Anyway, what I was alluding to is that I don't think that we can place the Wintons in that pile, except tentatively. Remember, we do not know what the Wintons genetic makeup consists of. There is a statement that it is a lot like or similar to (forget the exact wording) the Harringtons. But again, that is a bit vague. Personally I'm not sure I can assume the Wintons even have the IQ enhancement lest someone has the proof. I'd wager they do, since they also bond with Treecats, but that could be argued to be circumstantial evidence.

If you carefully read what Allison said in the text presented in this thread, it is clear that she believes that they have an IQ enhancement. The only vague part in her statement was whether their enhancement also results in an attraction to bonding by the treecats.

She believes. But she does not know for certain. Because it is classified. It could be that Beth has confided in her since, but are we to assume that? Again, if I had to plunk down money on it, I'd wager the Wintons do have the IQ enhancement. However! The Wintons might also have a genotype where the IQ is NOT an afterthought.

penny wrote:Anyway, what I was alluding to is that I don't think that we can place the Wintons in that pile, except tentatively. Remember, we do not know what the Wintons genetic makeup consists of. There is a statement that it is a lot like or similar to (forget the exact wording) the Harringtons. But again, that is a bit vague. Personally I'm not sure I can assume the Wintons even have the IQ enhancement lest someone has the proof. I'd wager they do, since they also bond with Treecats, but that could be argued to be circumstantial evidence.

tlb wrote:If you carefully read what Allison said in the text presented in this thread, it is clear that she believes that they have an IQ enhancement. The only vague part in her statement was whether their enhancement also results in an attraction to bonding by the treecats.

penny wrote:She believes. But she does not know for certain. Because it is classified. It could be that Beth has confided in her since, but are we to assume that? Again, if I had to plunk down money on it, I'd wager the Wintons do have the IQ enhancement. However! The Wintons might also have a genotype where the IQ is NOT an afterthought.

The text does not say classified, but just unknown to the general public. However Allison is a top geneticist, with very good connections at Beowulf where they probably have very good records of genetic modifications. She is saying that the Wintons have an IQ enhancement based on what she read in the records that she could access. From Ashes of Victory:

Chapter 6 wrote:"And good morning to you, too, Captain Henke. Thank you for delivering Dame Honor in one piece."
"We strive to please, Your Majesty," Henke replied with a certain unctuousness.
"And with such deep and heartfelt respect, too," Elizabeth observed.
"Always," Henke agreed, and the cousins grinned at one another. They really did look remarkably alike, although Henke showed the outward signs of the original, modified Winton genotype far more strongly. Elizabeth's rich mahogany skin was considerably lighter than her cousin's, yet Honor rather suspected Elizabeth had even more of the less obvious advantages Roger Winton's parents had had designed into their progeny. The exact nature of those modifications, while not precisely classified, was unknown to the general public, as was the very fact that any Winton had ever been a genie. . In fact, the Star Kingdom's security people took considerable pains to keep it that way, and Honor knew only because Mike had been her Academy roommate and closest friend for just under forty T-years . . . and because Mike had known she was a fellow genie for almost all that timeBut whichever of them had more of the original modifications, both had the same, distinctive Winton features, and there were barely three years between their ages.

From Ashes of Victory:

Chapter 17 wrote:But the Meyerdahl Betas also got what they used to call an 'IQ enhancer.'
-- skip --
"I take it," Honor said very carefully, "that your research didn't indicate that we were one of those 'less successful efforts'?"
"Oh, heavens, no! In fact, the Meyerdahl Betas and the Wintons have quite a lot in common. I don't have as complete a degree of access to the Winton records, of course, but even from the incomplete data in the public files, it's obvious that whoever designed the Winton modification for Roger Winton's parents was remarkably successful. As was the team that put together the Meyerdahl Beta package. I'd like to say they succeeded because they were so good at their jobs, but I rather doubt that was the case, particularly in light of their relatively primitive understanding of just what they were tinkering with. I think that, as we geneticists like to put it when discussing the vast evolutionary sweep of upward human development, they lucked out.

The public records she mentioned might still be closed to all without her connections. Note that this last paragraph in the text is about the IQ enhancement, which has a good chance to go wrong, but here it went well in both cases.