Reporters on Galton

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And no one outside the GA top government knows that they can at all. The fact that some treecat is being allowed near the suspect does not mean the suspect is being told of the abilities of the treecat. The treecat does not even have to be in the same room; just use those one-way mirrors that cop shows like to use. That doesn't block the treecats' abilities.

When they were present during questioning, the treecats weren't using their hand signals to communicate. They know better. They just sit there pretending to be dumb (and playing dumb), and give a few underhanded signals like a card player would with their partner. Add to that something to keep the suspect's attention away from the treecat, like a major distraction in the form of a gaudy or boisterous investigator, and the suspect will never notice the treecat's subtle signs of "nope, that was a lie."

Is it legal to subject a suspect to a non-invasive truth detector without their consent or awareness? I don't know. My guess is this would be no different than bringing an expert in facial tics and cues, except that the treecat is near 100% infallible. What I do know is that there has been no time to rule on the legality of using treecats like this in the few years since they've come out and shown they can, indeed, communicate and detect lies.

Maybe a later court will rule that all of this was illegal and that "fruit of the poisonous tree" such confessions cannot legally be used in a court of law, nor legal warrants for search and seizure, thus evidence thus obtained. So it might be a short-lived spin-off series where treecats join a legal practice, called "NCIS: Landing City." But in this case, in the judgement of war crimes, an overarching transnational agreement like the Deneb Convention might apply. And this is military justice, under the military codes, not civilian courts. It might be that the Manticore Unified Code of Military Justice does not allow suspects to deny non-invasive truth-verification mechanisms. All the investigator has to say is that "we have a very sensitive method to tell whether you're lying" and not elaborate on that.

Besides, I don't think this will matter for the majority of the population of Galton: they will not be held liable for having been brainwashed. It's the leadership that the GA and Intel services will be after, and either those have died or there are heaps of evidence against them anyway.

To End In Fire, June 1923 Post Diaspora, Lincoln Island wrote:The first person they encountered after leaving the pavilion was a tall, powerful looking blonde.
“Here’s one of your commissioners,” Cachat said. “Yana Tretiakovna. And here are a couple of others.” Two more people came from around the side of the pavilion. “The one on the left is Indiana Graham,” he said.
But all three of the PNE officers’ eyes were fixed on Indy’s companion. Or rather, on his companion’s companion, who rode his human’s shoulder.
“That’s a treecat.”
There was more than a trace of protest in Trevithick’s tone, and Cachat glanced at him. The dispassionate, almost bored expression was back.
“What part of ‘I am a very difficult person to betray’ are you having the most trouble with, Citizen Commander?”

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:When would this ever come up in a situation where the Malign had the right to refuse? Galton has been conquered, so NO ONE there has the right to refuse.

PS: The Malign does know about the abilities of the treecats and tried to examine a captured one.

PPS: What an extraordinary assortment of legal rights you have assigned to the residents of Galton. The right to be questioned without a treecat present. The right to sue over being conquered without due process. There probably have been other things; all without effect, since the Grand Alliance now controls Galton and will treat the residents as they would treat any other conquered people (so they do have rights. just NOT the expansive ones you mentioned).

Though, frankly, since the general population seem proud of being the Mesan Alignment and for how they successfully attack Manticore what makes someone think they'd refuse to talk about that or would care if a treecat was present while they bragged?

And, as far as they know, they're telling the truth. It's likely that the very, very, very, few people who knew there was someplace above Galton in the MAlign died on the defensive stations.

penny wrote:Like I said if they do know about the treecat's abilities they can refuse to go aboard ship and refuse to allow cats to be brought down to the planet. Of course, the GA can force the issue. Guilty until proven innocent, so why treat them any different 'eh? If there are lots of reporters that'll make for good traction.

They can refuse to cooperate with any interrogation, period. And they can refuse to admit guilt. Besides, how is it going to look when their interrogation yields no smoking guns or spider drives.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Though, frankly, since the general population seem proud of being the Mesan Alignment and for how they successfully attack Manticore what makes someone think they'd refuse to talk about that or would care if a treecat was present while they bragged?

And, as far as they know, they're telling the truth. It's likely that the very, very, very, few people who knew there was someplace above Galton in the MAlign died on the defensive stations.

I need to reread that. Just because they were celebrating by themselves on the planet does not mean they will celebrate in the company of their enemies. Why would they want to convict themselves and have their lives further upended? Why assist their enemies in any way shape or form? And how can a criminal admit to shooting someone with a gun when they have no gun?

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Though, frankly, since the general population seem proud of being the Mesan Alignment and for how they successfully attack Manticore what makes someone think they'd refuse to talk about that or would care if a treecat was present while they bragged?

And, as far as they know, they're telling the truth. It's likely that the very, very, very, few people who knew there was someplace above Galton in the MAlign died on the defensive stations.

I need to reread that. Just because they were celebrating by themselves on the planet does not mean they will celebrate in the company of their enemies. Why would they want to convict themselves and have their lives further upended? Why assist their enemies in any way shape or form? And how can a criminal admit to shooting someone with a gun when they have no gun?

Jonathan_S wrote:I also doubt they'd celebrate in the company of their enemies. But IIRC there was news coverage of the celebrations; people would have taken pictures or video of celebrating, the press release that informed them of the attack would be a matter of public record, etc..

I'm saying that they wouldn't have had plans to wipe or hide all those personal and public records. And when reporters talked to people, showed them the captured records, and asked about it at least some people would probably say "hell yeah we celebrated. We struck a major blow against an enemy of the proper future of mankind" (or something to that effect).

The people on Galton believe they are right. They're proud of being Mesan Alignment and of (as far as they know) carrying out Oyster Bay. Trying to suppress or hide that they'd done that would require them to be ashamed of it or to understand that the rest of the galaxy would condemn them for the attack; and neither seems likely to me. (Sure, there are probably some people inside the Onion on Galton who know how the outside public will react. But most are true believers of the cult and don't have and exposure to what the outside galaxy thinks. So they won't realize it helps their enemies to confirm that they they're proud of successfully attacking Manticore and Grayson)

It'd be like expecting the US public in 1945, that celebrated the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan, to deny or try to hide that they'd done so if occupied a year later. They wouldn't see any reason to be ashamed of or hide that yes their country had done so and yes they had celebrated it doing so.

penny wrote:Cooperating with the enemy is assisting the enemy. Frankly, I fully expected all of the citizens of Galton to be given nanites which would kill them if they talked. I hardly think throwing an entire planet under the bus is beyond the MA in any way shape or form. The reaction of the GA would have to be one of humanity; of "leaving the system be." After all, one can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Cooperating with the enemy is assisting the enemy. Frankly, I fully expected all of the citizens of Galton to be given nanites which would kill them if they talked. I hardly think throwing an entire planet under the bus is beyond the MA in any way shape or form. The reaction of the GA would have to be one of humanity; of "leaving the system be." After all, one can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.

Why do you continue to demand that the Malign sabotage the purpose of the "Alamo Option"? Why would the Malign give the nanites to the serfs? I can see the reason for giving that stuff to the overlords of classes Gamma to Alpha, but the Malign wants people to enthusiastically take credit for everything bad that has happened. That way if Darius is somehow found, they can claim to be monks who had moved far away from humanity to meditate.

"Cooperating with the enemy is assisting the enemy" would indicate that the people of Galton really were the enemy that you seem to want to deny. Talking that results in death does not mean the GA has to go away, they can just stop asking the questions that lead to death. The researchers of the GA still need to go through every archive and database, no matter what the "humane" response seemed to be.

penny wrote:Oh! Glad you asked. I forgot to post that I think the Alamo Option was sabotaged with Oyster Bay.

Oyster Bay was rushed and it was an impromptu afterthought. It not only threw the timing of other plans off, it destroyed the impact that the spider drive would have had on the galaxy if it had been kept hidden until the MAN was ready to attack. If that rings a bell, it should. The RMN couldn't keep Apollo under wraps until it was ready to go all out against Haven. Had the RMN been able to afford saving Apollo and other tech until ready to pay Nouveau Paris a visit, things would have been quite different.

I don't know how long ago the Alamo Option was conceived, but it would have been a flawless contingency plan had it not been for Oyster Bay.

Nanites would imply that Galton is a cult who is willing to suicide, which is indicative of crazy zealots, and it would have implied that the nanites were created there. To allow people on Galton to speak freely are not the people the GA has had experience with.

If they want the Alamo Option to have any chance to work, they've got to sell it!!!

penny wrote:Since Galton has been conquered, will the GA take Galton's warships as prizes? They should have some use to someone, even Torch.